For god's sake, Europeans, don't let skip! Not this time!! (1 Viewer)

[flieeeekke]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++


The same goes for the upcoming European Constitution : some lobby groups pressed for it to contain an allusion to Europe's judeo-christian heritage. Although I acknowledge that this is indeed our common heritage, I don't think such a mention has any place in the Constitution of a secular entity.

yeah, that was a rather stupid idea. imagine eu constitution with allusion to christianity and turkey's position towards it after they enter eu

libero, what do you do in life?

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Kaiser Franco]

I support Milan

 

[flieeeekke]

do you support berlusconi?

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
I'd rather keep my vote secret.

The leading parties? Don't you know them? The SPD in Germany, UMP in France, Labour in Britain, FI in Italy, PS in Spain etc.

and i know that, but how are they likely to win EP elections? i mean, labourists and in crisis, so are governing party in germany.

and which political power is most likelyu to get the majority in ep?

 

[Kaiser Franco]

do you support berlusconi?

As Milan's President, yes. As Italy's PM, absolutely not. See the convo I had with this kid in extra-time for more info (in my sig's link). I am Tryphon Ivanov there.

I really don't know who is likely to win the EP elections : the left could lose in Germany and Britain, granted, but so could the right in France and Italy.

Btw, I really am a free-lance conference interpreter.

 

[nina]

Well I'm not that supportive of the headscarves ban; the 'we moved the crosses from the walls of the schools so you should remove the scarves' as not really an equal act ... school is a state's concern and it's right that they finally moved the crosses down, but an individual is not and hence it's their choice if they will wear the scarves or not. Although I would advize people/cultures to try to adapt to the majority they live in, I will never agree to such an obligation.

 

[Kaiser Franco]

++ [ originally posted by nina ] ++
Well I'm not that supportive of the headscarves ban; the 'we moved the crosses from the walls of the schools so you should remove the scarves' as not really an equal act ... school is a state's concern and it's right that they finally moved the crosses down, but an individual is not and hence it's their choice if they will wear the scarves or not. Although I would advize people/cultures to try to adapt to the majority they live in, I will never agree to such an obligation.

Sorry I did not express myself correctly : the deal was not "you drop the headscarves and we drop the cross from the wall". Not in Italy at least. It was about an obsolete Italian law that says that crosses should be hung in schools, and this law upset the muslim community. In France, as Erik said, it was about banning ALL religious signs from your clothing, be it headscarves, crosses or jewish "hats" (still can't find the names for those). The key word in your statement is "adapt" btw : many muslims don't seem willing to adapt to the local culture and laws. But that's a much wider debate.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
The headscarves ban? Totally justified. Religion can get the "hell" out of public institutions imo. In Italy muslim associations asked us to remove crosses from classroom walls because it somehow offended them. Fair enough : we remove the cross, you remove the headscarves, I say.

What worries me about this law is the broad definition of religious symbols. Fine, a cross or a head scarf is a religious symbol, no questions asked. But what about when it comes to such things as bodily markings for example, such as in Hinduism? Are they going to ban these people altogether, or resort to using rusty scalpels?

If people take these laws to extremes, are we going to see the Salem Religious Symbols Trials? Jedi is officially recognised as a religion, are we going to start taking away childrens' toy lightsabers if someone gets offended?

What worries me is the extent to which people think they have the right to enforce these laws

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
jewish "hats" (still can't find the names for those)

I believe it's called a kippot

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by Erik ] ++
As a student of a European-orientated education I feel obliged to do this but there is also a sincere truth behind the urge with which I bring you, citizens of the EU, the following message:

There are elections coming up: pan-European ones. Once again its time we vote for the European Parliament and all those other institutions derived thereof.

I know what you're thinking, and I thought it too at first: "Why would I want to vote for that? Voting for my own national government already makes minimal sense to me."

And to a certain degree you are right. There really never was a great deal of importance to European elections, the European institutions were ruled by national governments anyway.

But not anymore.

In the next four years, decisions will be reached on the creation of a European Confederation, a European Confederal Army, a European president, the accession of Turkey, the European Constitution and many, many more extremely important issues.

Whatever you think was important in the past of European Unification could well look like a measly step in the process when the next term is over.

So, for god's and your own sake, go voting! Take the VoteMatch test to see which European political party expresses your opinion best and make a decision.

Its not much fun, I know, but its really necessary.

Here are the dates of the voting process:

10 June 2004
The Netherlands, The United Kingdom

11 June 2004
Czech Republic, Ireland

12 June 2004
Latvia, Malta

13 June 2004
Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Slovenia, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden

15 June 2004
Official results will be announced.

Nice bit of propaganda erik...

To be frank... Fvck europe... the sooner we get out of this crap the better... we have no need to be part of this

The more important question for the uk, is why wont tony blair offer a referendum on europe to the people... easy, he knows full well the people (as bourne out in poll after poll after poll) would ruin his plans with a swift fvck off to europe.... one day it will come

 

[Kaiser Franco]

Propaganda? What propaganda??

 

[Kaiser Franco]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

What worries me about this law is the broad definition of religious symbols. Fine, a cross or a head scarf is a religious symbol, no questions asked. But what about when it comes to such things as bodily markings for example, such as in Hinduism? Are they going to ban these people altogether, or resort to using rusty scalpels?

If people take these laws to extremes, are we going to see the Salem Religious Symbols Trials? Jedi is officially recognised as a religion, are we going to start taking away childrens' toy lightsabers if someone gets offended?

What worries me is the extent to which people think they have the right to enforce these laws

Gray, the law refers to all pieces of religious clothing, not bodily marks. I doubt anyone will ask to remove those through surgery.

 

[Tom]

I'm torn between the tories or ukip....

Normalement it would be the tories every time but I dunno, the more votes ukip get the more tosser blair has to friggin listen!

:undecide:

 

[Kaiser Franco]

Ukip are running in the EP elections? Ohhh the irony.

 

[Slagathor]

++ [ originally posted by nina ] ++
Well I'm not that supportive of the headscarves ban; the 'we moved the crosses from the walls of the schools so you should remove the scarves' as not really an equal act ... school is a state's concern and it's right that they finally moved the crosses down, but an individual is not and hence it's their choice if they will wear the scarves or not. Although I would advize people/cultures to try to adapt to the majority they live in, I will never agree to such an obligation.

The debate concerns state schools. Public schools, if you will.

If you insist on wearing your headscarf you are free to change schools and enroll in a private muslim school (Holland, for a fact, has several dozen spred throughout the nation) and if you must wear that Catholic cross around your neck, nobody will stop you from changing public school with a Private Catholic School.

Religions have no place in most (thank you Torkel ) European governments, schools included. And even then, you can put that religions symbol right back where you wear it the moment you leave school property. Its not about assimilation or integration, its about the divide between the State and the Church.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
What worries me about this law is the broad definition of religious symbols. Fine, a cross or a head scarf is a religious symbol, no questions asked. But what about when it comes to such things as bodily markings for example, such as in Hinduism? Are they going to ban these people altogether, or resort to using rusty scalpels?

If people take these laws to extremes, are we going to see the Salem Religious Symbols Trials? Jedi is officially recognised as a religion, are we going to start taking away childrens' toy lightsabers if someone gets offended?

What worries me is the extent to which people think they have the right to enforce these laws

You can't take this law to extremes. The State has a list of officially recognised religions. You cannot simply 'start a religion'. You need to meet all sorts of characteristics and laws before the State will recognise you as such.

Furthermore, this law focuses on clothing and symbols associated with that. Nobody is going to wait for you at the school gate with a laser gun to remove the tattoo on your lower arm that says "I love Jesus" or anything. They might ask you to conceil it by wearing long sleeved shirts but that's it.

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++
Nice bit of propaganda erik...

To be frank... Fvck europe... the sooner we get out of this crap the better... we have no need to be part of this

The more important question for the uk, is why wont tony blair offer a referendum on europe to the people... easy, he knows full well the people (as bourne out in poll after poll after poll) would ruin his plans with a swift fvck off to europe.... one day it will come

Its not propaganda. You might not like the EU, you might even hate it. But it is here. And the matters that will be discussed (as I described in my first post) WILL be discussed, like it or not (I'm not a big fan myself of some).

All I tried to do is make you aware. Take this chance to make your vote count I say. If you choose to vote for a party that seeks total independence, be my guest and vote! That's completely up to you; I never suggested you should vote for any certain party.

Frankly I'm insulted by you calling it propaganda.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Erik ] ++
You can't take this law to extremes. The State has a list of officially recognised religions. You cannot simply 'start a religion'. You need to meet all sorts of characteristics and laws before the State will recognise you as such.

Hinduism is a religion, but Kaiser already answered my query regarding the matter

 

[Slagathor]

Quote the entire thing or don't quote it at all you propagandist

++ [ originally posted by Erik ] ++
You can't take this law to extremes. The State has a list of officially recognised religions. You cannot simply 'start a religion'. You need to meet all sorts of characteristics and laws before the State will recognise you as such.

Furthermore, this law focuses on clothing and symbols associated with that. Nobody is going to wait for you at the school gate with a laser gun to remove the tattoo on your lower arm that says "I love Jesus" or anything. They might ask you to conceil it by wearing long sleeved shirts but that's it.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by Erik ] ++
Frankly I'm insulted by you calling it propaganda.

I have to agree here. Erik is urging people to decide what kind of Europe they want. He never said anything about it having to be an integrated one.

I really want to vote in the Europeans (and will, since they're on the same day as the locals and the citizenship referendum), but the candidate's I've met have been... disappointing. I've yet to meet anyone with a real vision for Europe, a genuine determination to make it representative (like letting us vote on the bloody constitution for a start) or just a clear party position. It's a damned popularity contest over here, and it's doing Europe no good in my mind.

 

[sallyinzaghi]

I think the ban is just stupid. Let muslims wear their scarves, let jews wear their kippots, let christians wear their crosses, etc etc. It's just the same as a malay wearing their traditional baju kurung, chinese wearing their qipao, indian wearing their sari at the same time... no harm with that. We should all respect each other's religions and furthermore muslims are required to wear the headscarf, leave it at that, don't take the privilege and identity away from them. if we were as 'civilized' as most of us make out to be, we should all live peacefully with full harmony under one community with different races and religions.

like malaysia

 

[Kaiser Franco]

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
if we were as 'civilized' as most of us make out to be, we should all live peacefully with full harmony under one community with different races and religions.

Go tell that to the arabs that parade in my city's streets singing "Hamas, Hamas, all jews must be gassed" and call any non-muslim miscreant or infidel.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
Go tell that to the arabs that parade in my city's streets singing "Hamas, Hamas, all jews must be gassed" and call any non-muslim miscreant or infidel.

There's a big Arabian population there?