there is marchisio man ...imo he can be the next vieira..but not if he continues staying at us 
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Let's take Balotelli out of the equation for a moment, because, once again, the point I was trying to make is not solely centered on or around Balotelli.
If Mario wasn't here, who would Italian football have to look forward to for succeeding on an International level??
Everyone is talking in specifics but I'm talking in a general term. The bottom line is that there is no one in the pipeline with the exception of Mario, and maybe Davide Santon that you could look at and say to yourself "Hey, that kid right there has all the makings to be achampion for Italy."
And for a country that is perceived to be a footballing power such as this, it is absolutely deplorable to find themselves in this situation.
So, all this talk about Lippi using the "old guard" because that is who he trusts is an absolute crock. If there were young players who were close in quality to what he has,but with younger and fresher legs and a hungrier attitude, would he not use them?The man is not stupid. He sees the landscape of the future of Italian football and sees a charred landscape, barren of any footballing fruit on the trees. He's using a squad whose average age makes them eligible for a retirement pension because he has to.
If Mario wasn't here, who would Italian football have to look forward to for succeeding on an International level??
Everyone is talking in specifics but I'm talking in a general term. The bottom line is that there is no one in the pipeline with the exception of Mario, and maybe Davide Santon that you could look at and say to yourself "Hey, that kid right there has all the makings to be achampion for Italy."
And for a country that is perceived to be a footballing power such as this, it is absolutely deplorable to find themselves in this situation.
So, all this talk about Lippi using the "old guard" because that is who he trusts is an absolute crock. If there were young players who were close in quality to what he has,but with younger and fresher legs and a hungrier attitude, would he not use them?The man is not stupid. He sees the landscape of the future of Italian football and sees a charred landscape, barren of any footballing fruit on the trees. He's using a squad whose average age makes them eligible for a retirement pension because he has to.
I did see your point, the answer being that there are a few who could be considered in a high category given the opportunities, but a special talent is different. I would also ask you who out there in any country looks like being a potential superstar at this moment? Who is there in England? Who is there in France? Who in Spain? You can't tell at such an age, you can only see talent and then hope they would progress.
You might reply with someone like Bojan. And that is because they have been given opportunities at a very young age, but can you say that because of this they will be top world class players? You can't. It's impossible to tell who is going to develope to that level. What separates talents like Ronaldo from Quaresma? Certainly though, there is an issue with playing young players in Italy.
I simply don't agree, he chooses those players because he knows them and has won with them, they offer tournament experience. Another guy posted a positive, younger Italy side in here which would be competitive in the future, people will always say the same when a generation of champions is on the way out.
You might reply with someone like Bojan. And that is because they have been given opportunities at a very young age, but can you say that because of this they will be top world class players? You can't. It's impossible to tell who is going to develope to that level. What separates talents like Ronaldo from Quaresma? Certainly though, there is an issue with playing young players in Italy.
I simply don't agree, he chooses those players because he knows them and has won with them, they offer tournament experience. Another guy posted a positive, younger Italy side in here which would be competitive in the future, people will always say the same when a generation of champions is on the way out.
Jay, if you could, take a few moments for me and give me your opinion on who the top 20 players in the world. I don't claim to have a great footballing knowledge, because to be honest, I really don't.
I'm just wondering if you wuld be able to do that for me, please.
Jay, he won with that squad 4 years ago. They were all in the late 20's, eraly 30's at that point. They are 4 years older now, a lot more injury prone, and much slower than they were in 2006, and they weren't a team known for its pace to begin with.
We can agree to disagree here. You say "comfort level", I say "the guy's got no choice"
I'm just wondering if you wuld be able to do that for me, please.
Jay, he won with that squad 4 years ago. They were all in the late 20's, eraly 30's at that point. They are 4 years older now, a lot more injury prone, and much slower than they were in 2006, and they weren't a team known for its pace to begin with.
We can agree to disagree here. You say "comfort level", I say "the guy's got no choice"
Lionel Messi, Argentina
Cristiano Ronaldo, Portugal
Wayne Rooney, England
Kaka, Brazil
Xavi, Spain
Didier Drogba, Ivory Coast
Andres Iniesta, Spain
Fernando Torres, Spain
Steven Gerrard, England
Michael Essien, Ghana
David Villa, Spain
Franck Ribery, France
Iker Casillas, Spain
Cesc Fabregas, Spain
Gianluigi Buffon, Italy
Dani Alves, Brazil
Nemanja Vidic, Serbia
Maicon, Brazil
Frank Lampard, England
Sergio Aguero, Argentina
Julio Cesar, Brazil
David Silva, Spain
Ashley Cole, England
Patrice Evra, France
Daniele De Rossi, Italy
Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Sweden
I picked 26, using the ESPN top 50 WC2010 list as a base. Is that ok?
I would use Drogba, Iniesta, Julio Cesar, Vidic, Lampard and Maicon as examples of players who have appeared later on the radar.
Cristiano Ronaldo, Portugal
Wayne Rooney, England
Kaka, Brazil
Xavi, Spain
Didier Drogba, Ivory Coast
Andres Iniesta, Spain
Fernando Torres, Spain
Steven Gerrard, England
Michael Essien, Ghana
David Villa, Spain
Franck Ribery, France
Iker Casillas, Spain
Cesc Fabregas, Spain
Gianluigi Buffon, Italy
Dani Alves, Brazil
Nemanja Vidic, Serbia
Maicon, Brazil
Frank Lampard, England
Sergio Aguero, Argentina
Julio Cesar, Brazil
David Silva, Spain
Ashley Cole, England
Patrice Evra, France
Daniele De Rossi, Italy
Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Sweden
I picked 26, using the ESPN top 50 WC2010 list as a base. Is that ok?
I would use Drogba, Iniesta, Julio Cesar, Vidic, Lampard and Maicon as examples of players who have appeared later on the radar.
You don't need my validation to see if how you came up with that list is ok.
But I think this list proves something. Look at Spain and England for instance. Look at thos enames. Do any of those players have the same situation that Balotelli had, where they had to be adopted by English or Spanish parents?
Take a look at Argentina, who according to that list has teh same amount of players as Italy on that lsit. Who would you rather have, Aguero and Messi, or Buffon and De Rossi?
Is that a question that should take more than a millisecond to answer?
But I think this list proves something. Look at Spain and England for instance. Look at thos enames. Do any of those players have the same situation that Balotelli had, where they had to be adopted by English or Spanish parents?
Take a look at Argentina, who according to that list has teh same amount of players as Italy on that lsit. Who would you rather have, Aguero and Messi, or Buffon and De Rossi?
Is that a question that should take more than a millisecond to answer?
I'd rather have Buffon than Aguero, for sure. One of the greatest goalkeepers ever? Yes please. I'd rather have all four in my team.
I really don't get this, what are you trying to say? That Italy adopted Balotelli at three as they new he would be the future hope of calcio? Balotelli just is, he is here and a product of calcio, an exciting (and irritating) talent.
I really don't get this, what are you trying to say? That Italy adopted Balotelli at three as they new he would be the future hope of calcio?
Balotelli just is, he is here and a product of calcio, an exciting (and irritating) talent.
I have a feeling its an underdog year. I don't know but I see one of the French teams reaching the finals.
If Bayern get and beat a big team in the next round then they are my pick (as long as everyone is fit and that includes their defenders).
I must say I was that way. Laughed so much at Milan when they were humiliated to the likes of Deportivo. But less so when its to these cunts.
Maybe its also because its gets you thinking about Juve and how bad our club is.
Its difficult for them to do anything if the clubs aren't helping themselves. The FIGC must find a way of getting people into the stadiums without having ridiculous rules that kill huge components of Italian football culture.
If Bayern get and beat a big team in the next round then they are my pick (as long as everyone is fit and that includes their defenders).
Not until Andy admits that the main reason why he didn't celebrate Milan's humiliation the way I did was the fact that it was Manchester who did that to Milan.
All Juve fans here want Italy to keep the third place. Some care about it so much that they support all or almost all Italian teams. Andy is not one of them. Andy is just like me, so until he admits that and admits that everything he said yesterday was a bunch of crap, I will always remind him about it.
All Juve fans here want Italy to keep the third place. Some care about it so much that they support all or almost all Italian teams. Andy is not one of them. Andy is just like me, so until he admits that and admits that everything he said yesterday was a bunch of crap, I will always remind him about it.
Maybe its also because its gets you thinking about Juve and how bad our club is.
Its difficult for them to do anything if the clubs aren't helping themselves. The FIGC must find a way of getting people into the stadiums without having ridiculous rules that kill huge components of Italian football culture.
You don't need my validation to see if how you came up with that list is ok.
But I think this list proves something. Look at Spain and England for instance. Look at thos enames. Do any of those players have the same situation that Balotelli had, where they had to be adopted by English or Spanish parents?
Take a look at Argentina, who according to that list has teh same amount of players as Italy on that lsit. Who would you rather have, Aguero and Messi, or Buffon and De Rossi?
Is that a question that should take more than a millisecond to answer?
But I think this list proves something. Look at Spain and England for instance. Look at thos enames. Do any of those players have the same situation that Balotelli had, where they had to be adopted by English or Spanish parents?
Take a look at Argentina, who according to that list has teh same amount of players as Italy on that lsit. Who would you rather have, Aguero and Messi, or Buffon and De Rossi?
Is that a question that should take more than a millisecond to answer?
But once again, how the hell does Balotelli's origins matter? Zidane was less French than Mario's Italian, so we might as well say France would have had little success 1998-2006 had his parents chosen to stay in Algeria and hence, something has been wrong with their youth and scouting system.
I'd rather have Buffon than Aguero, for sure. One of the greatest goalkeepers ever? Yes please. I'd rather have all four in my team.
I really don't get this, what are you trying to say? That Italy adopted Balotelli at three as they new he would be the future hope of calcio? Balotelli just is, he is here and a product of calcio, an exciting (and irritating) talent.
I really don't get this, what are you trying to say? That Italy adopted Balotelli at three as they new he would be the future hope of calcio?
Balotelli just is, he is here and a product of calcio, an exciting (and irritating) talent.
Not at all. This wasn't some conspiracy concocted by Lippi. Again, I'm not discrediting Balotelli in any way. I just thank the gods that he got adopted by Italian parents
. Its a much bigger problem than many pundits on the peninsula want to give it credit for.I guess what I am trying to get at, is that it is very depressing at the dearth of young talent that Italy has right now, and with the financial constraints that a lot of these teams are facing, there just needs to be more of a focus on the development of young players, and loosening the restricitons that the federation has set forth. Its just a shame, and it's really sad to see it come to this, because for the longest time, Italian Football is all I've known, with the majority of the champions being Italian, and not relying so much on foreign players.
Call me nostalgic, call me a romantic, but I long for the days when Italian teams had a majority of, well,...........................................Italians.
The countless money spent to acquire foregin players simply to keep up with the Jones' came at a great cost, and that cost was a neglect of the youth systems. I mean, look at Juventus. When was the last time that Juventus had a true champion come up through their youth system, and be a champion for them???
It has been a very, very long time since that has happened, and it shouldn't be that way. A majority of young players that are shipped off never come back, and some of them actually excel outside of Juventus. And this isn't just the work of the current board, this happened far too often during the Moggi years as well.
The problem with Juventus, and a lot of Italian teams, is they are now afraid to take a step back to take two steps forward. Everything has to be now, now , NOW, with no vision of the future at all.
Personally, give me a team of 20-21 year olds on Juventus and have them learn the ropes for a year or so and if they struggle, so be it. But the payoff for the next 5-6 years could be outstanding, with home grown champions, preferrably of Italian descent (Again, I'm speaking for purely selfish reasons in regards to the Italian national team).
JJ, you can see that there is problem with incoming talent just by looking at the results of the Azzurrini. From 1992 till 2004, out of 7 european u21 championships, Italy won 5.
Players, who won these championships, like Del Piero, Vieri, Inzaghi, Cannavaro, Totti, Nesta, Pirlo, Gattuso, Panucci, Buffon, De Rossi, Gilardino etc, won so many trophies internationally and were standard in their clubs or NT by the age of 22,23,25.
On the last 3 european u-21 championships, Italy did pretty bad. Twice they failed to pass their groups. On the 2006 u-21 this was the starting XI: Curci; Potenza, Canini, Bovo, Chiellini; Foggia, Sammarco, Donadel, Rosina; Palladino, Bianchi. These guys are 26, 27 and only one of them made it: Chiellini.
At the 2007 euro the team was considered extremely talented. The starting line-up was: Curci, Motta, Andreolli, Chiellini, Criscito, Nocerino, Montolivo, Aquilani, Rosina, Cigarini, Pazzini (Pelle). Now these guys are 24, 25, 26 but which ones play in the best European clubs and win trophies? Most of them are still playing for mid-table Italian teams.
The last generation had Giovinco, Marchisio, Bocchetti, Balotelli, De Ceglie, Acquafresca, Motta. Guys who are, with the exception of Balotelli and Santon, all 23 or 24. They are at the same age when Del Piero, Inzaghi, Pirlo etc were winning the biggest trophies and were the best players in their teams. But where are they now compared to their predecessors?
Pique is 23, Sergio Ramos is 23, Fabregas is 22, Silva is 24, Mata is 21, Iniesta is 25, Torres is 25.
Di Maria is 22, Aguero is 21, Higuain is 22, Messi is 22, Lavezzi is 24, Banega is 21
Gourcuff is 23, Benzema is 22, Aly Cissokho is 22, Las Diarra is 25, Ribery is 26, Ben Arfa is 22, Clichy is 24, Abou Diaby is 23, Nasri is 22.
Wayne Rooney is 24, only 1 year older than Giovinco who is still considered a kid in Italy.
Players, who won these championships, like Del Piero, Vieri, Inzaghi, Cannavaro, Totti, Nesta, Pirlo, Gattuso, Panucci, Buffon, De Rossi, Gilardino etc, won so many trophies internationally and were standard in their clubs or NT by the age of 22,23,25.
On the last 3 european u-21 championships, Italy did pretty bad. Twice they failed to pass their groups. On the 2006 u-21 this was the starting XI: Curci; Potenza, Canini, Bovo, Chiellini; Foggia, Sammarco, Donadel, Rosina; Palladino, Bianchi. These guys are 26, 27 and only one of them made it: Chiellini.
At the 2007 euro the team was considered extremely talented. The starting line-up was: Curci, Motta, Andreolli, Chiellini, Criscito, Nocerino, Montolivo, Aquilani, Rosina, Cigarini, Pazzini (Pelle). Now these guys are 24, 25, 26 but which ones play in the best European clubs and win trophies? Most of them are still playing for mid-table Italian teams.
The last generation had Giovinco, Marchisio, Bocchetti, Balotelli, De Ceglie, Acquafresca, Motta. Guys who are, with the exception of Balotelli and Santon, all 23 or 24. They are at the same age when Del Piero, Inzaghi, Pirlo etc were winning the biggest trophies and were the best players in their teams. But where are they now compared to their predecessors?
Pique is 23, Sergio Ramos is 23, Fabregas is 22, Silva is 24, Mata is 21, Iniesta is 25, Torres is 25.
Di Maria is 22, Aguero is 21, Higuain is 22, Messi is 22, Lavezzi is 24, Banega is 21
Gourcuff is 23, Benzema is 22, Aly Cissokho is 22, Las Diarra is 25, Ribery is 26, Ben Arfa is 22, Clichy is 24, Abou Diaby is 23, Nasri is 22.
Wayne Rooney is 24, only 1 year older than Giovinco who is still considered a kid in Italy.
Ok well I don't rate some of those players too highly for a start. True what you say about the Azzurrini results, but also it is worth adding that those tournaments are based on a team rather than individuals. It's also unfair to compare competition based over 7 years as we don't know what is going to happen over the next few. Sure, if you want to compare like for like then you analysis is correct. I think you are being too harsh though, the 2004 squad that last won the tournament wasn't massively talented in terms of individuals. 2000 certainly was not, look at that squad, some horribly limited players who never amounted to much, around the fantastic Pirlo and fighting Gattuso.
I keep coming back to the same argument however, and you emphasise it with the point on Giovinco - as does HII (sorry, don't know his real name) - that Italian players are not given a chance, so how could they possibly reach the high level of those previously? Has there been some kind of talent drain in the country in the last few years? It's not unreasonable to think that there wouldn't be a special player coming through in that time, but players reach a certain level by playing regularly at the highest level, against the best players. Perhaps it is also an indication at the recent decline of the domestic game.
I see enough talent around that, given the chance, can compete with the top international sides in the future. Perhaps Serie A will have to reach the same level as Spain and England again or players will have to move to one of those leagues for it to happen, but then that would enhance the decline domestically. It's no surprise to see the level of English and Spanish players increase with the introduction of foreign superstars and coaches to their domestic leagues. It was once the same in Italy. The downside, in England in particular, is that the selection pool decreases massively.
Hi! I'm Italien, it is refreshing to see someone with those ideas, it is something I share to a degree, and goes against what most here seem to want yet point out as a major flaw for the national team. We've been over it before but it seems easier to pick up the next 'wonderkid' from South America - which by definition is a youngster who is given a chance to play (something not afforded to Italian youngsters) - in a weaker league - because the better players are all bought by European teams, rather than give a chance to young Italian players. Their transfer fees also dictate that they will play. It's easy to keep a youth team player on the bench. No one is saying that there is loads of talent waiting to play, but the level of young players is never going to increase until they get games again! In the past players with talent would get games, and their level and status increases from there. Being a first team player for Italy post-2010 will improve those players chosen, you have to make the leap sometime.
I keep coming back to the same argument however, and you emphasise it with the point on Giovinco - as does HII (sorry, don't know his real name) - that Italian players are not given a chance, so how could they possibly reach the high level of those previously? Has there been some kind of talent drain in the country in the last few years? It's not unreasonable to think that there wouldn't be a special player coming through in that time, but players reach a certain level by playing regularly at the highest level, against the best players. Perhaps it is also an indication at the recent decline of the domestic game.
I see enough talent around that, given the chance, can compete with the top international sides in the future. Perhaps Serie A will have to reach the same level as Spain and England again or players will have to move to one of those leagues for it to happen, but then that would enhance the decline domestically. It's no surprise to see the level of English and Spanish players increase with the introduction of foreign superstars and coaches to their domestic leagues. It was once the same in Italy. The downside, in England in particular, is that the selection pool decreases massively.
Hi! I'm Italien, it is refreshing to see someone with those ideas, it is something I share to a degree, and goes against what most here seem to want yet point out as a major flaw for the national team. We've been over it before but it seems easier to pick up the next 'wonderkid' from South America - which by definition is a youngster who is given a chance to play (something not afforded to Italian youngsters) - in a weaker league - because the better players are all bought by European teams, rather than give a chance to young Italian players. Their transfer fees also dictate that they will play. It's easy to keep a youth team player on the bench. No one is saying that there is loads of talent waiting to play, but the level of young players is never going to increase until they get games again! In the past players with talent would get games, and their level and status increases from there. Being a first team player for Italy post-2010 will improve those players chosen, you have to make the leap sometime.
I was checking the Milan forum and I chose this post:
That said, I'm not so sure it's "manure" as much as "manure fanboy".
WC 2010 is going to be WC 2002 for Italy all over again.
Painful.Forza Bordeaux!!
Great point. I didn't laugh at Milan so much when they collapsed in the final against Liverpool as much as when they collapsed in the second-leg humiliation against Deportivo just a couple years prior.