[EU] Champions League 2007/2008 (53 Viewers)

[Stephan]

You're right, we're much better off with Liverpool, because erm... yeah, is really beneficial to us and all, because... right, no reason.

In fact, we would be much better off if no Italian teams ever won the CL, because then we'd go and win it and we'd be the only ones. Of course, then noone would consider our domestic league worth anything with no teams that can compete for the CL.

Being the strongest man on the island isn't worth much if none of the other men can lift so much as a pebble.

now hold on, but if one of milan/inter would be in our situation, i seriously doubt they would cheer for us to go as far as possible, just for the domestic league competitiveness.

Besides milan has been in the semis 3 years in a row.

 

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[Stephan]

Oh and if we bring the marketing business in it, then what would you rather have, a ka modric joining arsenal or modric joining milan. The fact that italian clubs will make it further while we are where we are, makes our chances to compete with our domestic rivals in transfer market harder.

 

[Alen]

Besides milan has been in the semis 3 years in a row.

And it did wonders for us. You can see how people respect Juve more in the last 3 years.
It was a huge success to win Serie B in Italy in the year when Italy became World champion and Milan won the CL. We gained a lot of new-found respect.

 

[Martin]

True, but can we ever become the strongest if our rivals get millions and millions of EUR and millions of new fans, who'll give even more millions to the club, for their success in Europe ?

If you are saying that the only way we can possibly succeed is to pray that all our competitors fail, then why are you still behind Juve exactly?

 

[Martin]

now hold on, but if one of milan/inter would be in our situation, i seriously doubt they would cheer for us to go as far as possible, just for the domestic league competitiveness.

I could care less what they are doing. What we're talking about is the reputation of Italian football, that's what's at stake. We used to be #1 and now we are behind Spain. It annoys me to see that Real Madrid can attract talent on a far bigger scale than any Italian club.

Oh and if we bring the marketing business in it, then what would you rather have, a ka modric joining arsenal or modric joining milan. The fact that italian clubs will make it further while we are where we are, makes our chances to compete with our domestic rivals in transfer market harder.

I don't know much about Modric, but let's assume for argument's sake that he is officially "the next big thing". Would I prefer him at Milan or Arsenal. Milan, obviously. What good is he doing me at Arsenal? In fact, what good did Henry do us at Arsenal? Not a thing. But what good is Kaka doing us? He just won all of the awards, and Milan just won both the CL and the rather unimportant Fifa world tournament, all of which maintains Milan's reputation as one of the best clubs in Europe. As a Juve, what I'm interested in is to compete against a club like that.

Why were we not satisfied with Serie B? We won it, we dominated. Why isn't that good enough? Because we're supposed to compete against the best, that's why. And if Milan isn't the best and Inter isn't the best, I might as well switch to Spanish league that *does* have the best clubs.

 

[Stephan]

If you are saying that the only way we can possibly succeed is to pray that all our competitors fail, then why are you still behind Juve exactly?

currently, i would say yes actually.

lets say 2 italian clubs make it to semis that means a lot of :money:

and then the summer transfer window opens, how are we gona challenge them if on paper the founds will be like this:

juve :money:
inter :money: :money: :money: :money: :money:
milan :money: :money: :money: :money:

 

[Martin]

currently, i would say yes actually.

lets say 2 italian clubs make it to semis that means a lot of :money:

and then the summer transfer window opens, how are we gona challenge them if on paper the founds will be like this:

juve :money:
inter :money: :money: :money: :money: :money:
milan :money: :money: :money: :money:

So let's keep that going. Milan and Inter crash out in the group stage. Very little money. As those are the only Italian clubs with any measure of potential for success in Europe, that means no Italian CL success. Let's assume we still can go far though. That's one strong team (us) and three worthless teams (Milan, Inter, Roma). How long do you think it's going to be before Serie A drops in the Uefa rankings to the point where we only have 2 CL spots and one has to qualify? Go ahead and calculate that in cash if you like.

Serie A used to be a strictly two horse race, and we were always one of the two. Now the balance has been upset, it's hard to say what the outcome will be in the next two years. But from some of your comments it appears that some would be happy if the league was reduced to a one horse race, like France currently. Yeah, wouldn't that be exciting.

 

[Stephan]

I could care less what they are doing. What we're talking about is the reputation of Italian football, that's what's at stake. We used to be #1 and now we are behind Spain. It annoys me to see that Real Madrid can attract talent on a far bigger scale than any Italian club.

yes but thats also because of the funds. Besides thats been the case with real past 3-4 years. They change players more often then some their socks.

 

[Martin]

yes but thats also because of the funds. Besides thats been the case with real past 3-4 years. They change players more often then some their socks.

Yes, money. What do you think popularity means in terms of money? What do you think you can expect in terms of revenue if your league is popular because it's strong and a lot of people want to watch it? I doubt we can compete with Real Madrid any time soon and that goes for all Italian clubs, but our biggest source of income is from tv. The only way to sustain that is to have the biggest clubs and the biggest players in our league (because that's the whole reason people have been watching Serie A the last 5 years), otherwise we'll be like Portugal. And they sure as hell can't compete with Real Madrid.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

celtic - barca: barca to go through in a tight affair. too bad celtic have to play home first.

lyon - man u: unfortunately, i think man u will win this one easily. lyon don't look to have anything special about them, and they looked mediocre, struggling in an easy group.

shalke - porto: tbh, i'm not really interested in this one, but i guess porto are the favourites to go through.

liverpool - inter: i don't know if i want liverpool to embarass these bitches, or if i want them to go all the way to the final (so that they can turn their attention away from the league) and lose badly. either way, i hope they suffer a lot of injuries and fatigue along the way. anyway, i predict an inert win.

roma - real madrid: the match of the round. this is the draw i was looking forward to. anyway, i'm backing roma for this one, but i'm not sure if they can overcome the merengues. i think real will win though.

arsenal - milan: promises to be a classic, arsenal love to play football and milan love to play aginst teams that play football. i expect a display of skillful football. i hope for milan to go through just because i dislike the english teams, plus they are the best hope for the italians. could be close or it could be a blow-out but milan will go through at the expense of the kids. (sorry fred)

olympiakos - chelsea: am i putting my head on ablock to say that chelsea will win this one? what do you think, manos?

fenerbahce - sevilla: i don't really care, either of these teams i don't expect to pass the 1/4 finals, but i'll put my money on sevilla.

 

[Alen]

If you are saying that the only way we can possibly succeed is to pray that all our competitors fail, then why are you still behind Juve exactly?

This is a straw man argument because i never said it the way you make it sound.
I said that at the time when we're weak, especially financially weak, it will be a lot harder to become stronger than Inter and Milan. Especially Inter and Milan who'll be getting richer and richer due to their potential success in CL.
You overstated my position by saying that the only way to succeed is to pray they fail.
That's not the only way to succeed but Inter and Milan failing in Europe certainly helps us in our fight to win back the top of serie A in the following years.

We can succeed winning serie A even if they keep winning CL but their success will certainly make it harder for us to get the better players, the better sponsorship deals and to create a more competitive team than theirs.
I'll be glad if we become better than teams that have huge success in Europe but for now the reality is that our transfer budget is only half of the money Berlusconi is ready to offer to buy out Ronaldinho's contract.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

So let's keep that going. Milan and Inter crash out in the group stage. Very little money. As those are the only Italian clubs with any measure of potential for success in Europe, that means no Italian CL success. Let's assume we still can go far though. That's one strong team (us) and three worthless teams (Milan, Inter, Roma). How long do you think it's going to be before Serie A drops in the Uefa rankings to the point where we only have 2 CL spots and one has to qualify? Go ahead and calculate that in cash if you like.

Serie A used to be a strictly two horse race, and we were always one of the two. Now the balance has been upset, it's hard to say what the outcome will be in the next two years. But from some of your comments it appears that some would be happy if the league was reduced to a one horse race, like France currently. Yeah, wouldn't that be exciting.

Martin is right, if Milan, Inter and Roma sucked every year in Europe and Juve surpassed them, we could end up like Porto and Serie A could be the Portuguese Superliga. I don't about you, but I don't want Serie A to fall further behind the EPL and La Liga.

 

[Martin]

This is a straw man argument because i never said it the way you make it sound.

Fair enough.

We can succeed winning serie A even if they keep winning CL but their success will certainly make it harder for us to get the better players, the better sponsorship deals and to create a more competitive team than theirs.
I'll be glad if we become better than teams that have huge success in Europe but for now the reality is that our transfer budget is only half of the money Berlusconi is ready to offer to buy out Ronaldinho's contract.

And that. Is a good thing. If it means that it'll be harder for us to come back after the demotion, good. That means there is something seriously worthwhile to play for.

And I hope they do get Ronaldinho. Not that I care about him, but in terms of this argument I would applaud it.

 

[Salvatore]

True, but can we ever become the strongest if our rivals get millions and millions of EUR and millions of new fans, who'll give even more millions to the club, for their success in Europe ?

I'm really glad Inter, Milan and Roma got the toughest possibile opponents. They will have to work really really hard to eliminate Arsenal, Liverpool and Real. The tougher it gets for them in Europe easier it gets for us in serie A.

We have more fans than both them Milan teams. We are richer then one of them in Europes richest clubs list as well. We are third in Serie A, over 10 points ahead of the Rossoneri. We have financial support from a really rich family, we look set to get a Champions League place. We will earn the TV money from that next season, we will get players with that. We will become powerful, we will dominate. You know, like Juventus does like all the time.

 

[Alen]

Martin is right, if Milan, Inter and Roma sucked every year in Europe and Juve surpassed them, we could end up like Porto and Serie A could be the Portuguese Superliga. I don't about you, but I don't want Serie A to fall further behind the EPL and La Liga.

CL won in 2003, two Italian finalists and 3 semifinalists in 2003.
CL finalist in 2005, CL semifinalist in 2006, World cup won in 2006, CL winners in 2007.

Isn't this enough for serie A to be the most popular league in the world ?

Then why isn't it ?
Calciopoli, police officers dead, trouble with Ultras, exodus of the best players because of what's happening in the country.

Italians need other things to sort out so serie A won't become like Portuguese league. The success in Europe never was and never will be a problem. And from what we could have seen in last years, the success in Europe didn't help even a little bit.

 

[Stephan]

ok Martin history lesson coming up

Quarter finals recent years
2002/2003: 3 italian, 3 spanish, 1 english, 1 holland club
2003/2004: 1 italian, 2 spanish, 2 english, 1 portugal club, 2 french club
2004/2005: 3 italian, 0 spanish, 2 english, 1 holland, 1 germany, 1 french club
2005/2006: 3 italian, 2 spanish, 1 english, 1 portugal, 1 french club
2006/2007: 2 italian, 1 spanish, 3 english, 1 holland, 1 germany

--
anyway said it before and say it again, germany should be more scared, they have 3 spots currently, but looking those statistics, should have only 2.

And i know now you will say, but thats what i am talking about, as long as italian clubs keep getting to quarter of further we are ok, our league reputation is ok and platini wont take away the 4th CL spot, but one year doesnt change that much. as i said, look that stat and germany are in bigger problems.
Besides to be honest, i dont think uefa has the courage to take away 4 spot from italy or spain. Again germany is the example cause only Bayern is the main club and as it seems to me, only schalke/hamburg could do something as well.

 

[Martin]

And i know now you will say, but thats what i am talking about, as long as italian clubs keep getting to quarter of further we are ok, our league reputation is ok and platini wont take away the 4th CL spot, but one year doesnt change that much. as i said, look that stat and germany are in bigger problems.

If that is your argument then it becomes a different discussion. If you generally *want* Italians clubs to succeed but not this year then that is a position I still don't agree with, but as you say it has very little long term impact.

Having said that, I also think it has very little impact on us whether Inter and Milan succeed in the CL *this year*, in terms of money.

 

[Stephan]

one other thing i would want to point out is that its wrong to compare us with portugal or france or something. Clubs like milan, inter have old history and will always be there.

but where are the super benficas or PSG-s?

 

[HelterSkelter]

Fantastic draw.I think this is one of the best 2nd round draws the CL has seen in a while.The match that stands out for me has to be the Roma-Madrid one.I seriously think that Roma can down Madrid.Arsenal-Milan is another great draw.Yes,the Arsenal squad has youth on their side,but then again,their is no substitute for experience.Last year i remember people saying that youngsters like Ronaldo and Rooney would own Milan's aging squad,but that didnt really happen.Youth obviously has its advantages,but their is no substitute for experience.Inter-Liverpool is an interesting one.I think Liverpool's honeymoon with the CL could come to an end this time around.Inter,on paper atleast,have a squad that could win the CL.Liverpool have dragged themselves on in the CL for the last few years,without playing anything known as football,and i would sincerley hope that it comes to an end this time around.The only bad thing about this draw is that Man Utd got a comparitivley easy team.I would have loved to see Kaka own their asses yet again.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

as juve4eva said, juve will always be at the top or near in italy. we are the most important team in italy, and even if milan and inter are/become more financially powerful than us, the fact that we are supported by +33%(rough figure) of italians means that unless some serious badly management of the juve business occurs we will always be an elite italian team. so we must worry about the image and prestige of italian teams in europe and internationally because it will affect juve.