[EU] Champions League 06/07 (42 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
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UEFA has much finer calibration of point rankings than looking at how many team qualifies into latter stages of competition. Given the disastrous performances by Italian teams in UEFA Cup, Serie A might have lost a bit of ground on English and Spanish counterpart. But all said and done Serie A is far too ahead of nearest challenger, France, to be in any danger of loosing additional place, for a time being. Erik provided detailed calibrations long-time back, and he convinced me thoroughly that UEFA has a good natural stabilizer that balances the diversity and quality (He is one hell of smart guy, speaking of intellectuals here).
Anyway my real complaint of CL is that under the current one group stage - straight knockout competition, rather mediocre teams from Italia, Spain, and England benefits at the expense of far superior counterparts at the respective country. Knock-out is like Russian Roulette - everybody has fair chance. What Platini should do is not so much increase the allocation of CL places to lesser leagues find ways to make CL more reflective of merit rather than luck. Obvously pitting last CL places from Italia, Spain and England achieves the latter aim but it will dilute the quality of compeition. I personally would like to see two-group stage format come back so teams like Liverpool cant luck themselves into the final. In anycase, more big games like Roma vs Manchester, the better for me.
Anyway my real complaint of CL is that under the current one group stage - straight knockout competition, rather mediocre teams from Italia, Spain, and England benefits at the expense of far superior counterparts at the respective country. Knock-out is like Russian Roulette - everybody has fair chance. What Platini should do is not so much increase the allocation of CL places to lesser leagues find ways to make CL more reflective of merit rather than luck. Obvously pitting last CL places from Italia, Spain and England achieves the latter aim but it will dilute the quality of compeition. I personally would like to see two-group stage format come back so teams like Liverpool cant luck themselves into the final. In anycase, more big games like Roma vs Manchester, the better for me.
i dont know, if we look uefa country coefficients then they give exactly the same points for CL and uefa cup results, and because of that spain is leading. That system is ridicilous though, cause in CL recent years only barca has reached the final while we have had 3 english clubs in semis and 3 italian clubs in semis.
It is clear the coefficients are even because UEFA are trying to make it a way to say that the UEFA Cup is still a major competition. Of course its one you want to win, but the die hard truth is its not a big competition anymore... and thus meaning any points gained in the CL should count double or 1.5 over any points gathered in the UEFA.
It is clear the coefficients are even because UEFA are trying to make it a way to say that the UEFA Cup is still a major competition. Of course its one you want to win, but the die hard truth is its not a big competition anymore... and thus meaning any points gained in the CL should count double or 1.5 over any points gathered in the UEFA.
man I just didn't want to get in a debate with him, its just something I wanted to get off my chest.And from now on whenever you talk to me, you will type www.dictionary.com at the end. I am sick of the CTRL+T sequences when conversing with someone like you
You know that was freak of result, and the margin of difference between two teams are far less than that. Roma lost their will to play by half time, but Manchester being complete jerks had to rub it in big time. But then again, Roma did the exactly same thing to Catania. As they say; what goes around and comes around.
I thoughly enjoyed two group stages, because the 2nd group stage was always really tight, with good teams battling each other for the spot in the knock out stages. More importantly, it punishes those teams, like Liverpool and lesser extent Milan, that comes to play for every 2 games or so. The system rewards consistency and as a result, almost good team will almost always make latter stages. When the lesser light comes through, such as Bayer, my word they were pretty good.
But when it come downs to UEFA and CL rankings - Yes I do think UEFA gives too much weigt to the former, as a way to show that the competition is still important. I find it somewhat distasteful given such inappropriate system are used to seed teams in the group stage: Again UEFA rewarding mediocrity at the expense of doing well.
I thoughly enjoyed two group stages, because the 2nd group stage was always really tight, with good teams battling each other for the spot in the knock out stages. More importantly, it punishes those teams, like Liverpool and lesser extent Milan, that comes to play for every 2 games or so. The system rewards consistency and as a result, almost good team will almost always make latter stages. When the lesser light comes through, such as Bayer, my word they were pretty good.
But when it come downs to UEFA and CL rankings - Yes I do think UEFA gives too much weigt to the former, as a way to show that the competition is still important. I find it somewhat distasteful given such inappropriate system are used to seed teams in the group stage: Again UEFA rewarding mediocrity at the expense of doing well.
I'll explain that
You can see UEFA country standings here http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html
UEFA counts the results of last five years.
Every win in UEFA cup qualifications rounds brings 1 point. Every draw at the same stage brings 0.5 points.
Every win in UEFA cup groups stages and knock out rounds brings 2 points while every draw brings 1 point.
Qulifying for quarter finals brings bonus 1 point, semifinals bring bonus 2 points, goint to the finals will get the teams another point and winning Uefa Cup gets one more point.
In Champions league, in qualifications for the group stages every win brings 1 point while every draw 0.5 points.
All the teams that qualify for group stages get bonus 3 points.
In group stages every win brings 2 points and every draw 1 point.
Teams that qualify for last 16 in champions league get 1 bonus point and teams get extra point for every time they procede to the 1/4's , 1/2's , big final and winning the final.
In knockouts teams also get 2 points for a win and 1 point for a draw.
To get the points one country has for the particular year, you collect all points teams from that country got and then divide them with the number of teams who play in Europe from the same country.
I'll make an example to make it more clear ~
Juve playes directly in champions league group stages and just because they are there they get 3 bonus points. In the group Juve won all 6 matches and these 6 wins bring 12 points to Juve. Qualifying for last 16 gets us another extra point and the 2 wins Juve got there bring 4 more points.......
At the end lets say Juve got 25 points
Milan got 18.5 points , Inter 15 points and Roma 13.5 points
In Uefa Cup Palermo has 15.5 points, Fiorentina 13.5 points and Lazio 12 points.
We collect all the points ( 25+18.5+15+13.5+18.5+15.5+13.5+12 =141.5) and we divide them with the number of Italian teams in Europe - 7
141.5 / 7 = 20.214
20.214 is the country coefficient Italy gets for the particular year. You collect the country coefficients from the last 5 years and then you'll get the final number of points Italy has.
You do that for every single country and then you will get the final standings.
You can see UEFA country standings here http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html
UEFA counts the results of last five years.
Every win in UEFA cup qualifications rounds brings 1 point. Every draw at the same stage brings 0.5 points.
Every win in UEFA cup groups stages and knock out rounds brings 2 points while every draw brings 1 point.
Qulifying for quarter finals brings bonus 1 point, semifinals bring bonus 2 points, goint to the finals will get the teams another point and winning Uefa Cup gets one more point.
In Champions league, in qualifications for the group stages every win brings 1 point while every draw 0.5 points.
All the teams that qualify for group stages get bonus 3 points.
In group stages every win brings 2 points and every draw 1 point.
Teams that qualify for last 16 in champions league get 1 bonus point and teams get extra point for every time they procede to the 1/4's , 1/2's , big final and winning the final.
In knockouts teams also get 2 points for a win and 1 point for a draw.
To get the points one country has for the particular year, you collect all points teams from that country got and then divide them with the number of teams who play in Europe from the same country.
I'll make an example to make it more clear ~
Juve playes directly in champions league group stages and just because they are there they get 3 bonus points. In the group Juve won all 6 matches and these 6 wins bring 12 points to Juve. Qualifying for last 16 gets us another extra point and the 2 wins Juve got there bring 4 more points.......
At the end lets say Juve got 25 points
Milan got 18.5 points , Inter 15 points and Roma 13.5 points
In Uefa Cup Palermo has 15.5 points, Fiorentina 13.5 points and Lazio 12 points.
We collect all the points ( 25+18.5+15+13.5+18.5+15.5+13.5+12 =141.5) and we divide them with the number of Italian teams in Europe - 7
141.5 / 7 = 20.214
20.214 is the country coefficient Italy gets for the particular year. You collect the country coefficients from the last 5 years and then you'll get the final number of points Italy has.
You do that for every single country and then you will get the final standings.
"Speech is a powerful lord that with the smallest and most invisible body accomplished most godlike works. It can banish fear and remove grief, and instil pleasure and enhance pity. Divine sweetness transmitted through words is inductive of pleasure and reductive of pain" what of the pursuit of truth?
I am basically aware of the structure, as I shall be going out I wont look into he details. Anyway, even though I have hard time recalling the exact details, Erik showed that point system are adjusted so that a country with higher initial point accumulation must perform above average to maintain their status.
man I just didn't want to get in a debate with him, its just something I wanted to get off my chest.And from now on whenever you talk to me, you will type www.dictionary.com at the end. I am sick of the CTRL+T sequences when conversing with someone like you
Well that's true and it's pretty clear why they have to do so.
Like i said, they count the points from last 5 years. For next year points from 2001/02, 2002/03, 2003/04, 2004/05 and 2005/06 <points from this season will count for the final standings for season 2008/09, not for next season. They are doing that so we will know one year earlier how many places countries get >
If Italy got 20.5 points in season 2001/02 while France got 11.00 points for the same year and in next 4 years they collected more or less the same number of points, then Italy has an advanatge of 9.5 points overall ( 20.5 - 11.00) and Italy will be above France.
But the next time points from 2001/02 season won't count ( because only points from last 5 seasons count) and Italy won't have the advantage anymore. That's why Italians will have to do better than French teams to maintain their status.
( i was talking hypothetically. Italy still has pretty big advantage over France and Italians will give 4 teams in champions league at least for the next 3 or 4 years, unless French or German teams start winning everything while Italians lose most of their matches)
Like i said, they count the points from last 5 years. For next year points from 2001/02, 2002/03, 2003/04, 2004/05 and 2005/06 <points from this season will count for the final standings for season 2008/09, not for next season. They are doing that so we will know one year earlier how many places countries get >
If Italy got 20.5 points in season 2001/02 while France got 11.00 points for the same year and in next 4 years they collected more or less the same number of points, then Italy has an advanatge of 9.5 points overall ( 20.5 - 11.00) and Italy will be above France.
But the next time points from 2001/02 season won't count ( because only points from last 5 seasons count) and Italy won't have the advantage anymore. That's why Italians will have to do better than French teams to maintain their status.
( i was talking hypothetically. Italy still has pretty big advantage over France and Italians will give 4 teams in champions league at least for the next 3 or 4 years, unless French or German teams start winning everything while Italians lose most of their matches)
Yes your example correct in so far as to prove why team must consistently play better to maintain their status. I was thinking more of statistical adjustment of raw scores, by taking into consideration the respective position of different leagues. In essence, a point earned by an Italian may not same as those by France, or Germany. From what I remember, Erik showed such statistical adjustment do exist, thus requiring big 3 to perform far above the chasing pack if they intend to keep their status; but I may be wrong here.
Anyway, it is clear that UEFA cup do benefit from having diverse group of participants, so I am not too bothered about UEFA helping those teams out at the expense of bigger nations. My real complaint is that under current system, the ones benefit is not so much those little nations, but mediocre teams from Italia, Spain and England.
Anyway, it is clear that UEFA cup do benefit from having diverse group of participants, so I am not too bothered about UEFA helping those teams out at the expense of bigger nations. My real complaint is that under current system, the ones benefit is not so much those little nations, but mediocre teams from Italia, Spain and England.