[EU] Champions League 05/06 (13 Viewers)

[flieeeekke]

We are bringing last year into the equation now. Barcelona were favoured in both their encounters with Chelsea and Milan. Give me a fact that proves it otherwise or accept the fact that this is actually what happened.

im not saying they weren't, im just saying they were the better team in both fixtures.

chelsea, ok so that wasnt a straight red, but del horno shouldve received a booking for challenge on messi just minutes earlier, so his red card wasfully deserved, other than that i didnt see any favours, in fact, chelsea got a non existant penalty in the second leg

milan, ok so sheva did score a legit goal. human error? who knows, anyways, barca wouldve played the remaining second half, the extra time and the penalties in front of their own crowd at nou camp. surely, milan were robbed of a place in the final..umpkin:

 

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[Intro]

I think rather than squabble over favourable refereeing decisions (although I am in agreement with Jeeks that Barcelona are often favoured - just check the number of penalities and red-cards awarded in their favour this season) the discussion should be broader on if they have actually played as the 'best team in Europe' such is the tag attached to this team.

I see in Arsenal and Barcelona mirrored attributes that make both sides the finalists. I would not say one team has been more impressive in reaching the final than the other - in fact in my assessment both have been very modest in their displays in doing the bare minimum to qualify. Despite the players and name of the clubs it's been very much similar to an underdog run to the final such as Liverool and Porto from the past two seasons.

Taking Barca as an example there is so much to throw at this team such that even if they lift the trophy how fortunate were they?

- Last 16: Sending-off which ruined a contest which now in hindsight Chelsea were never going to be the challengers of last year. Barca were still a goal down in that tie at one stage and in the home match they never looked to win the match despite their lead. As Mourinho states: '11 vs 11 - Barca never beat them'.

- QF: Ok - so many missed chances for Barca but the best in the end of that first leg fell to Benfica with poor misses from Simao. Also a hand-ball from Motta should have been punished. It was a similar decision that would go in Barca's favour in the opening minutes at the Nou Camp. Benfica had a guilt-edged opportunity to equalise for 1-1 with less than 20 minutes remaining. Eto'o only made the game safe in the closing minutes from a counter-attack. No-one said Barca weren't deserved winners over the whole tie - but Benfica were the worst team left and the tie was far too close.

- SF: 'Stolen' win in Milan where they had almost little adventure or expectation of winning. Milan missed the sort of chances they would never given that night again. An unfair scoreline tilted the scales hugely in Barca's favour. Even with Costacurta coming in for Milan's best defender Barca were too cautious to exploit that and diced with death again and were fortunate to again keep their goal intact.

There are many more arguments which support their lack of dominance in this tournament:
- Knockout results: 3 wins, 3 draws.
- Tournaments topscorers with 22 goals but 16 of these were in the group phase. 6 goals in the knockouts represents a poor average.
- Eto'o and Ronaldinho only have 2 goals each in the knockouts (Inzaghi scored the equivalent in just 2 San Siro matches) and Shevchenko looks almost likely to end as top-scorer.

Comprehensive and deserving Champions (which Barca claim to be) do not leave such margins in their victory.

As I've said before apart from a more 'sexier' winner whoever will take this; Arsenal or Barca the basis of recent CL winners remains - defence and win-at-all-costs ahead of performance is they key strategy.

I will go out on a limb and say the final will have a single goal or less in normal time.

 

[Stephan]

looks like refs will favour barca in the final as well:


Final assistant referee pictured in Barcelona shirt

Norwegian assistant referee Ole Hermann Borgan has been pictured wearing a Barcelona shirt as he prepares to officiate in Wednesday's Champions League final between Arsenal and the Spanish champions in Paris.

He posed for the picture on Monday and it was printed in Norwegian newspaper Drammens Tidende.

Norway's refereeing supremo Rune Pedersen told the newspaper: 'It was a bit strange of Borgan to pose with one of the final team's shirts ahead of the final tomorrow night.

'It is an unwritten rule that referees should not do anything that can doubt their impartial stance.

'This picture can be brought up beforehand and also after the game, if there are any dubious incidents.'

 

[Intro]

looks like refs will favour barca in the final as well:

No. UEFA has taken action and replaced the official.
http://home.skysports.com/list.asp?...3&lid=4163&title=Uefa+replace+Paris+assistant

Uefa have announced that assistant referee Ole Hermann Borgan has been replaced for the UEFA Champions League final after being pictured in a Barcelona shirt.

Borgan was set to officiate in the meeting of Arsenal and Barcelona in Paris on Wednesday, but a picture published in his local newspaper caused acute embarrassment.

With fears of his impartiality being at stake, Borgan had admitted his mistake whilst insisting he would approach the game in a fair manner.

Both coaches had also played down the row but the Uefa Referees Committee has now decided to replace Borgan just 24 hours before the final.

As a result the official has been replaced by compatriot Arild Sundet, meaning he misses out on taking part in the most high-profile club game in world football. Speaking before the decision was made, match referee Terje Hauge had insisted Borgan was only guilty of naivety.

"It was a stupid thing to do but I can assure that he did it in pure joy at being chosen to take part in this event," Hauge told a news conference.

"It does not mean he is a Barca fan. It was just a stupid decision that he regrets a lot."

 

[JCK]

um.. uefa are adidas..

What does that mean? UEFA are neither this nor that, they are a football organisation.

 

[Gep]

Off topic: @Jeeks, Did you managae to send in your photos of your delle alpi trip?

 

[JCK]

Off topic: @Jeeks, Did you managae to send in your photos of your delle alpi trip?

Many has seen them, but I will not post them on the forum.

 

[Gep]

Many has seen them, but I will not post them on the forum.

Many huh? :eyebrows: Selected few i guess. Have it your way. Shall i lose sleep over it? Naaaah probably not.

 

[Snoop]

Don't ask me, but this is how I saw it.

isn't Barcelona a G14 member? and Chelsea not?

Correct me If I am wrong.

 

[Enron]

Final score of tomorrow's match. Arsenal 3 - Barca 1.
Goals: Barca: Eto'o (from Ronaldinho). Arsenal: Henry*, Henry (from Reyes), Fabregas (from Hleb).


*Unassisted.

 

[Henry]

that would be an interesting final score...what order?

 

[gaspipe]

i guess today CL cup goes to barcelona eto, ronaldinho for barca and reyes, henry for gunners in 90 minutes. Then penalty shootout and henry misses his penalty unfortunately it was the last one OMG it would be nice

 

[JCK]

Many huh? :eyebrows: Selected few i guess. Have it your way. Shall i lose sleep over it? Naaaah probably not.

If you feel that way.

 

[denco]

I think rather than squabble over favourable refereeing decisions (although I am in agreement with Jeeks that Barcelona are often favoured - just check the number of penalities and red-cards awarded in their favour this season) the discussion should be broader on if they have actually played as the 'best team in Europe' such is the tag attached to this team.

I see in Arsenal and Barcelona mirrored attributes that make both sides the finalists. I would not say one team has been more impressive in reaching the final than the other - in fact in my assessment both have been very modest in their displays in doing the bare minimum to qualify. Despite the players and name of the clubs it's been very much similar to an underdog run to the final such as Liverool and Porto from the past two seasons.

Taking Barca as an example there is so much to throw at this team such that even if they lift the trophy how fortunate were they?

- Last 16: Sending-off which ruined a contest which now in hindsight Chelsea were never going to be the challengers of last year. Barca were still a goal down in that tie at one stage and in the home match they never looked to win the match despite their lead. As Mourinho states: '11 vs 11 - Barca never beat them'.

- QF: Ok - so many missed chances for Barca but the best in the end of that first leg fell to Benfica with poor misses from Simao. Also a hand-ball from Motta should have been punished. It was a similar decision that would go in Barca's favour in the opening minutes at the Nou Camp. Benfica had a guilt-edged opportunity to equalise for 1-1 with less than 20 minutes remaining. Eto'o only made the game safe in the closing minutes from a counter-attack. No-one said Barca weren't deserved winners over the whole tie - but Benfica were the worst team left and the tie was far too close.

- SF: 'Stolen' win in Milan where they had almost little adventure or expectation of winning. Milan missed the sort of chances they would never given that night again. An unfair scoreline tilted the scales hugely in Barca's favour. Even with Costacurta coming in for Milan's best defender Barca were too cautious to exploit that and diced with death again and were fortunate to again keep their goal intact.

There are many more arguments which support their lack of dominance in this tournament:
- Knockout results: 3 wins, 3 draws.
- Tournaments topscorers with 22 goals but 16 of these were in the group phase. 6 goals in the knockouts represents a poor average.
- Eto'o and Ronaldinho only have 2 goals each in the knockouts (Inzaghi scored the equivalent in just 2 San Siro matches) and Shevchenko looks almost likely to end as top-scorer.

Comprehensive and deserving Champions (which Barca claim to be) do not leave such margins in their victory.

As I've said before apart from a more 'sexier' winner whoever will take this; Arsenal or Barca the basis of recent CL winners remains - defence and win-at-all-costs ahead of performance is they key strategy.

I will go out on a limb and say the final will have a single goal or less in normal time.

Is it not amazing how we see matches to support our point of view. Lets start with your assessment of the match against Benfica, you are right Benfica missed 2 good chances in both legs and Motta ought to have been penalised as it was handball. But you conveniently refused to mention the plethora of chances that Barcelona missed in both legs. Van Bommel alone mossed at least 4 sitters in the first leg. How can you say the tie was close? It was man against boys out there
Against Milan in both legs Etoo missed a lot of chances and noone who is unbiased will say overall Barcelona were not the better team cos they were. Sheva's goal should have stood but Milan did not do enough in both legs to go through
The biggest problem with this game is that if they neither team scores early then we are in for a very tactical boring game. For all Wenger's boasts, i will always remember the way he bored us against Man united in the Fa cup final and I will not be surprised if he did it again.
Football wise Barcelona have been the best team in Europe, did they have favourable decisions from referees, yes, why, cos of what Mourinho did to em last season, perhaps. But also good football is usually rewarded with favourable decisions most of the time

 

[Matteo..]

im not saying they weren't, im just saying they were the better team in both fixtures.

chelsea, ok so that wasnt a straight red, but del horno shouldve received a booking for challenge on messi just minutes earlier, so his red card wasfully deserved, other than that i didnt see any favours, in fact, chelsea got a non existant penalty in the second leg

milan, ok so sheva did score a legit goal. human error? who knows, anyways, barca wouldve played the remaining second half, the extra time and the penalties in front of their own crowd at nou camp. surely, milan were robbed of a place in the final..umpkin:

Agreed about Del Horno, but no way that was a human error. I mean, it's not like there was contact and it was questionable or something. No, Shevchenko headed it home and it was disallowed for something that wasn't even close to existing.

 

[Intro]

Is it not amazing how we see matches to support our point of view. Lets start with your assessment of the match against Benfica, you are right Benfica missed 2 good chances in both legs and Motta ought to have been penalised as it was handball. But you conveniently refused to mention the plethora of chances that Barcelona missed in both legs. Van Bommel alone mossed at least 4 sitters in the first leg. How can you say the tie was close? It was man against boys out there
Against Milan in both legs Etoo missed a lot of chances and noone who is unbiased will say overall Barcelona were not the better team cos they were. Sheva's goal should have stood but Milan did not do enough in both legs to go through
The biggest problem with this game is that if they neither team scores early then we are in for a very tactical boring game. For all Wenger's boasts, i will always remember the way he bored us against Man united in the Fa cup final and I will not be surprised if he did it again.
Football wise Barcelona have been the best team in Europe, did they have favourable decisions from referees, yes, why, cos of what Mourinho did to em last season, perhaps. But also good football is usually rewarded with favourable decisions most of the time

I did mention those missed chances but in the end they are irrelevant. It's such intangible arguments all supporters of this side put forward and such factors can never be measured - such as the fact that Barcelona are always the better footballing team win-or-lose.

Rather than looking at all the finer points it is much easier to look at the plain statistics. In 10 years time people who never witnessed this team will look back at the records and if as you say the 'football-wise Barcelona have been the best team in Europe' there will be a glaring contradiction.

Look at the performance of finalist in the knockout phases since the revision of the tournament:

2005/2006
Arsenal: 3 wins, 3 draws, Goals: F4-A0
Barcelona: 3 wins, 3 draws, Goals: F6-A2

2004/2005
Liverpool: 4 wins, 2 draws, Goals: F9-A3
Milan: 5 wins, 1 loss, Goals: F8-A3 (Note: only counted Inter 2nd leg as 1-0 not 3-0)

2003/2004
Porto: 3 wins, 3 draws, Goals: F8-A4
Monaco: 3 wins, 2 draws, 1 loss, Goals: F12-A10

Firstly, Barca look no more impressive than Arsenal from this year. But we see that 3 wins and 3 draws is more of a common occurance not one of a team who has dominated. The goals totals this year are the most worrying. People assumed the two previous winners were defensive but what of these 'attacking' sides? On paper these stats paint them as the most dour.

From that list it is clear to see that the Milan team of last year stands as the most accomplished as dominant with 5 wins and only defeat and goals conceded in that final PSV game. Had the HT score in Istanbul stood I think we'd have been looking at one of the greatest CL teams of all-time being winners two years before and league winners coming into the tournament.

 

[denco]

I did mention those missed chances but in the end they are irrelevant. It's such intangible arguments all supporters of this side put forward and such factors can never be measured - such as the fact that Barcelona are always the better footballing team win-or-lose.

Rather than looking at all the finer points it is much easier to look at the plain statistics. In 10 years time people who never witnessed this team will look back at the records and if as you say the 'football-wise Barcelona have been the best team in Europe' there will be a glaring contradiction.

Look at the performance of finalist in the knockout phases since the revision of the tournament:

2005/2006
Arsenal: 3 wins, 3 draws, Goals: F4-A0
Barcelona: 3 wins, 3 draws, Goals: F6-A2

2004/2005
Liverpool: 4 wins, 2 draws, Goals: F9-A3
Milan: 5 wins, 1 loss, Goals: F8-A3 (Note: only counted Inter 2nd leg as 1-0 not 3-0)

2003/2004
Porto: 3 wins, 3 draws, Goals: F8-A4
Monaco: 3 wins, 2 draws, 1 loss, Goals: F12-A10

Firstly, Barca look no more impressive than Arsenal from this year. But we see that 3 wins and 3 draws is more of a common occurance not one of a team who has dominated. The goals totals this year are the most worrying. People assumed the two previous winners were defensive but what of these 'attacking' sides? On paper these stats paint them as the most dour.

From that list it is clear to see that the Milan team of last year stands as the most accomplished as dominant with 5 wins and only defeat and goals conceded in that final PSV game. Had the HT score in Istanbul stood I think we'd have been looking at one of the greatest CL teams of all-time being winners two years before and league winners coming into the tournament.

No Intro, those are not performances you have put out there, those are results and stats. Milan, did dominate Man united but against Inter in both legs, they were somewhat fortunate, Inter had a goal disallowed when Cambiasso scored , what for, i still do not know, ands thats what started the fire cracker thing. Sheva scored a brilliant goal but he should not have been on the pitch to do it as he struck Materazzi and should have been sent off. The semis, well Psv should have gone through as they battered Milan in both legs but Milan's better experience in scoring when it does matter put them through. The fact that Barcelona and Arsenal have not scored a lot of goals is not through lack of trying its the fact that they have not always finsished moves that should have resulted in goals or that they have done the hard work in away legs and being careful at home whilst still creating chances but not going gung-ho

 

[Intro]

No Intro, those are not performances you have put out there, those are results and stats. Milan, did dominate Man united but against Inter in both legs, they were somewhat fortunate, Inter had a goal disallowed when Cambiasso scored , what for, i still do not know, ands thats what started the fire cracker thing. Sheva scored a brilliant goal but he should not have been on the pitch to do it as he struck Materazzi and should have been sent off. The semis, well Psv should have gone through as they battered Milan in both legs but Milan's better experience in scoring when it does matter put them through. The fact that Barcelona and Arsenal have not scored a lot of goals is not through lack of trying its the fact that they have not always finsished moves that should have resulted in goals or that they have done the hard work in away legs and being careful at home whilst still creating chances but not going gung-ho

Ok I admit those stats on Milan are skewed a little more favourably then their performances suggested. But your last point on Barca is the one I don't really like - I still believe not conceding has been the key strategy along with Arsenal. For this reason I am worried that winners of previous tournaments (Porto and Greece) still hold the winning style and nothing will change whoever lifts the trophy. My biggest concern is that for this reason Roman Abramovich will get his CL title next year with Mourinho - almost no doubts there and clearer than Barca this season.

Anyway, I shall stop bitching about Barca and look forward to tonight's match hopefully being entertaining.

 

[Stephan]

imo if arsenal want to win, they need to score first. i dont see them coming back if barca score first.

 

[Stephan]

no messi, giuly instead.