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EPL Bullshit (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter Seven
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:LOL: You're all of your rockers...I can't believe that there's a debate going on between which league is best: Italy or England...
If you want a league where they play entertaining football and also have tactical awareness, if you want a league where the balance of power shifts, but there is also great tradition; if you want a league where the teams are more equal to each other than any other, then you need look no further than La Liga.
If you want a league where they play entertaining football and also have tactical awareness, if you want a league where the balance of power shifts, but there is also great tradition; if you want a league where the teams are more equal to each other than any other, then you need look no further than La Liga.
Please try and introduce some logic here. Sure, Parma are struggling because of their financial troubles, but are you failing to see their line up still consists the likes of Sebastian Frey, Daniel Bonera and Alberto Giladino, all of whom have the potential to play on any club team in the world. As individuals alone they have more talent than teams such as Livorno, Cagliari and Chievo (all of whom are ahead in the table at this point in time). Yes, rivalry does help the team on some psychological level, but please tell me when Leeds last beat Man United? iirc it was in 2002. Rivals or not, you do need to have some level of game to match a team that is better than yours. And the truth is, thereon in Leeds were well and truly cash strapped which saw them sell stars like Dacourt and Kewell, thats when the money or the lack of it takes effect on the pitch.
Udinese, Palermo, Cagliari, Chievo and Messina may get knocked out without much success in European competition. But I dont see how you can forget to add Middlesborough, Aston Villa, Charlton, Man city and Bolton to that list.
And once again for your satisfaction, i say the EPL isnt exactly the worst league in the world, but its projected as the best in the world and sells itself to the ignorant asian football fan who doesnt have much to look at at home, so tends to adopt what is presented to him. To let you in on the true picture, do you know the EPL is packaged and sold by the EspnStar network in Asia so shamelessly that now they no longer show teams from the other leagues in the CL save Spain (thank god). eg. Instead of Juventus V Bayern Munich, the match that was telecast was Man United V Lyon and presented as the clash of the evening. Thankfully, Milan have now drawn Man United. And Juve, Real Madrid.
Udinese, Palermo, Cagliari, Chievo and Messina may get knocked out without much success in European competition. But I dont see how you can forget to add Middlesborough, Aston Villa, Charlton, Man city and Bolton to that list.
And once again for your satisfaction, i say the EPL isnt exactly the worst league in the world, but its projected as the best in the world and sells itself to the ignorant asian football fan who doesnt have much to look at at home, so tends to adopt what is presented to him. To let you in on the true picture, do you know the EPL is packaged and sold by the EspnStar network in Asia so shamelessly that now they no longer show teams from the other leagues in the CL save Spain (thank god). eg. Instead of Juventus V Bayern Munich, the match that was telecast was Man United V Lyon and presented as the clash of the evening. Thankfully, Milan have now drawn Man United. And Juve, Real Madrid.
@ Andy, I am sorry but i have never read you say anything complimentary about the English league . most of the posts that I have read you talk about the league is disparaging. You also go as far as to infer that Henry looks good only becuase the standard in the premiership is very low so I am surprised to see you back track
10 finalists in 16 years is pretty impressive and not once did i say the English league was better than the SerieA but the fact still remains that its just 1 team or in the reaching finals but losing stakes, its just 2 teams and that does not say anything for the other 16 teams in SerieA
Now when we look at the other teams then you would find that only Lazio and Inter have reachd or gone beyond the second round in this period and looking at the epl, leeds, chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man united have done this but thats another story
You were talking about tactics but tactics do not win games, goals do and you can be the most tactical manager ever but without the right players or a dodgy keeper, you will win sweet FA
Baggio , again what has having Bonera and Gilardino got to do with anything? Leeds had Smith, Robinson, Viduka etc and were still struggling and they have worse problems off field than parma do
The fact that the Epl is shown in Asia more than any other league is cos it has marketed its product very well and to some its the most exciting and to others its the best , now thats not the Epl's problem, if it was not good , it would not have been shown in every continent on a large basis
What Espn decides to show has got nothing to do with which is the best but which they think ppl in Asia wanna watch and if they feel majority of the ppl would rather watch that game than Juve bayern , well whose fault is that, not Epl surely as Espn is not owned by any English man to my knowledge
I do not have to say that Middlesboro, Aston Villa and co would not do well in Europe cos I am not trying to prove to you that the Epl is the best, I never had, my point is that the Epl is not as bad as ppl like you want to make it out to be and i am giving you instances where some of the points you raise have nothing do with how you wanna prove how much SerieA is better than the Epl
For your info , I do prefer SerieA, always have but I do not think the Epl is bad and I do not really care which is the most popular and I sure as hell won't try to put down ppl who prefer which ever league just because I do not believe in their opinions
A long time ago when SerieA could boast of all the world class players in the world like in the 80s and early 90s, it was the undisputed best but not now, there is room for doubt and even if i still have sentimental attachment to it, i would not be blinded to the fact that its gone down in value, its been caught up by the Epl and la liga and some of the teams in Seriea are terrible
La liga being the best in the world? Oh really , if we go by what you guys are using to categorise, Depor did not score a single goal in Cl and they are not bottom of their league and were in a group which consisted of Olympiakos, Liverpool, and Monaco not exactly world beaters
Real madrid were very lucky to qualify and are second in la liga, Valencia are joint second but only Anderlecht made them look good in their group while Barcelona who were 10 points clear at 1 time in La liga came second to Milan who are not even top in their own league but what do I know
10 finalists in 16 years is pretty impressive and not once did i say the English league was better than the SerieA but the fact still remains that its just 1 team or in the reaching finals but losing stakes, its just 2 teams and that does not say anything for the other 16 teams in SerieA
Now when we look at the other teams then you would find that only Lazio and Inter have reachd or gone beyond the second round in this period and looking at the epl, leeds, chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man united have done this but thats another story
You were talking about tactics but tactics do not win games, goals do and you can be the most tactical manager ever but without the right players or a dodgy keeper, you will win sweet FA
Baggio , again what has having Bonera and Gilardino got to do with anything? Leeds had Smith, Robinson, Viduka etc and were still struggling and they have worse problems off field than parma do
The fact that the Epl is shown in Asia more than any other league is cos it has marketed its product very well and to some its the most exciting and to others its the best , now thats not the Epl's problem, if it was not good , it would not have been shown in every continent on a large basis
What Espn decides to show has got nothing to do with which is the best but which they think ppl in Asia wanna watch and if they feel majority of the ppl would rather watch that game than Juve bayern , well whose fault is that, not Epl surely as Espn is not owned by any English man to my knowledge
I do not have to say that Middlesboro, Aston Villa and co would not do well in Europe cos I am not trying to prove to you that the Epl is the best, I never had, my point is that the Epl is not as bad as ppl like you want to make it out to be and i am giving you instances where some of the points you raise have nothing do with how you wanna prove how much SerieA is better than the Epl
For your info , I do prefer SerieA, always have but I do not think the Epl is bad and I do not really care which is the most popular and I sure as hell won't try to put down ppl who prefer which ever league just because I do not believe in their opinions
A long time ago when SerieA could boast of all the world class players in the world like in the 80s and early 90s, it was the undisputed best but not now, there is room for doubt and even if i still have sentimental attachment to it, i would not be blinded to the fact that its gone down in value, its been caught up by the Epl and la liga and some of the teams in Seriea are terrible
La liga being the best in the world? Oh really , if we go by what you guys are using to categorise, Depor did not score a single goal in Cl and they are not bottom of their league and were in a group which consisted of Olympiakos, Liverpool, and Monaco not exactly world beaters
Real madrid were very lucky to qualify and are second in la liga, Valencia are joint second but only Anderlecht made them look good in their group while Barcelona who were 10 points clear at 1 time in La liga came second to Milan who are not even top in their own league but what do I know
Denco, your not seeing my point. Firstly, your the one who said Parma are cash strapped, which is what they owe their league standing to. The only way this could be justified is, if they sold their players because of the lack of money, which they have not done so far. This means they still have the likes of Gila, Frey and Bonera playing for them. So im still saying Parma are being outplayed on the pitch by teams that are not just there to make up the numbers. I gave you Leeds' example, where i mentioned stars like Dacourt and Kewell being sold, and Leeds selling out. Thats the reason their performances were on the decline, and thats where the lack of money comes in to play.
Just for the record Espn has tied up with Star networks in Asia, and Star has a largely English bias as regards the employees and directors on board. I know this for a fact, because i happened to meet one of the Indian presenters at a party and he himself told me this. So when your telling me that the channel feels that the Asian fan would rather watch a Man United Vs Lyon, over a Juventus Bayern. 1. Isnt the fan being deprived of a choice even though he'd rather watch a Juve Bayern. 2. And in doing this, the English clubs are all he's exposed to, so isnt he having to subscribe to the hype that 'everyone's watching.' 3. Isnt the decision to show a Man United vs Lyon over a Juve vs Bayern, hype enough?
If you read any of my aforementioned posts you'll find that i have never once compared the Serie A and Epl. Frankly speaking they cant be compared because they cater to a different set of audiences. What the Epl lacks, the Serie A has, and vice versa. All i get pissed about is how the Epl is made out to be something its not - the best league in the world. (And that too, because of bandwagon fans, who otherwise wouldnt tell a Chelsea from the New York Knicks.)
Just for the record Espn has tied up with Star networks in Asia, and Star has a largely English bias as regards the employees and directors on board. I know this for a fact, because i happened to meet one of the Indian presenters at a party and he himself told me this. So when your telling me that the channel feels that the Asian fan would rather watch a Man United Vs Lyon, over a Juventus Bayern. 1. Isnt the fan being deprived of a choice even though he'd rather watch a Juve Bayern. 2. And in doing this, the English clubs are all he's exposed to, so isnt he having to subscribe to the hype that 'everyone's watching.' 3. Isnt the decision to show a Man United vs Lyon over a Juve vs Bayern, hype enough?
If you read any of my aforementioned posts you'll find that i have never once compared the Serie A and Epl. Frankly speaking they cant be compared because they cater to a different set of audiences. What the Epl lacks, the Serie A has, and vice versa. All i get pissed about is how the Epl is made out to be something its not - the best league in the world. (And that too, because of bandwagon fans, who otherwise wouldnt tell a Chelsea from the New York Knicks.)
I am not blind, Henry looks world class in the EPL. But when the heat is on during the top competitions of Europe and the World, he seems to not be nearly as impressive. I would just like to know the reason behind that because other top players such as Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Zidane all live up to their praise while playing in other competitions besides their own respective league.
What do you mean bac track? I have said multiple times before that the EPL is an exciting league, and I watch it my self. However, the fact of the matter is that I believe it is overrated and not the best league in the world, contrary to popular belief. I gave my evidence in the former posts.
However, the supposed top club of the past few seasons in England, Arsenal, has never been past the Quarterfinals of the Champions League. Inter Milan of course has, last time being in 2003.
One could also argue that the level of play from the top 3 teams from Italy in Europe stems down to the lesser clubs, and having that sort of competition makes them better. I could see the same happening in England with Mourinho as Chelsea coach, giving the league lessons on how to defend.
You are right, and I concur that goals do win games, however tactics is what shuts down opposing sides and gives teams the balance they need. My opinion is that Italian sides are more tactically adept, while English sides are not as concerned. That looks correct to me.
What do you mean bac track? I have said multiple times before that the EPL is an exciting league, and I watch it my self. However, the fact of the matter is that I believe it is overrated and not the best league in the world, contrary to popular belief. I gave my evidence in the former posts.
However, the supposed top club of the past few seasons in England, Arsenal, has never been past the Quarterfinals of the Champions League. Inter Milan of course has, last time being in 2003.
One could also argue that the level of play from the top 3 teams from Italy in Europe stems down to the lesser clubs, and having that sort of competition makes them better. I could see the same happening in England with Mourinho as Chelsea coach, giving the league lessons on how to defend.
You are right, and I concur that goals do win games, however tactics is what shuts down opposing sides and gives teams the balance they need. My opinion is that Italian sides are more tactically adept, while English sides are not as concerned. That looks correct to me.
Erm Denco, #1, yes goals win games. But we have to realise that if you score 4 and your opponent scores 5 (Spurs-Gunners) then you loose.
A solid team starts from the back.
Having said that, have we ever had an (almost) all English semi final in the Champions League? Never, but at certain periods, Spain, Italy and even Germany have dominated the Champions League. What does that say about the Englanders that we seem to have only sporadic domination?
A solid team starts from the back.
Having said that, have we ever had an (almost) all English semi final in the Champions League? Never, but at certain periods, Spain, Italy and even Germany have dominated the Champions League. What does that say about the Englanders that we seem to have only sporadic domination?
Okay Chxta and remember the last world cup winners ie Brazil do not and di not have a good defence but they did however and do have very good players that can score at any time and hurt you but Italy on the other hand have a very good defence but do have goals coming from everywhere and hence went out in the second round.
Like I said before, its just trying to be clever and prove that you know more than others that make fans talk about tactics, for goodness sakes leave that trash to journalists and managers not me and you
I am not interested in how organised my team is but how well they play and if you outscore a side, you win pure and simple
Whats the point in being so solid ay the back but cannot score goals and then lose on penalties?
Germany dominate the Cl? Please enlighten me when that has ever happened, yes you have had Bayer Leverkusen in the final and thats only after they have all gone out and its only Bayern that has been remotely consistent
I have never said English teams are the best or are dominant or anything like that, all I have been saying forever is that they are not as bad as you guys are trying to portray them
They are in a no win situation anyways cos even if Arsenal , Chelsea or Liverpool do anything, the praise will go to a Frenchman, Portugues or a Spanish bloke
Back to the all Italian semi or all Italian final, do u not think that the rest of the world would pray it does not happen that often cos of the way they decided to bore the pants off ppl who are not into that kinda boring tactical stuff?
Yes a solid team starts at the back but they are not necessarily exciting and would not necessarily have the most fans
@Andy , now lets turn that around a bit, Zz will always play better when the lights are out and the rest of the world is watching on the bigger stage but he did not always show up in small games where you need to win the league as some of his league performances for Juve proved
Ronaldo, does little in way of team contribution, be it in small games or big games but he too like s the big stage though he did choke quite spectacularly in 94 final
Ronaldinho is just a work of art so i have nothing to say against him
Lets look at Totti, he plays very well in SerieA for his home town club, Roma but has he ever cut it at Cl level, save for a few goals against Spanish opposition and what has he done for the NT, yes he had a good Euro2000 but then more was expected of Dp and not him and when was the last time he actually played well against a good Juve or Milan?.
Lets not even talk about the guy in my avatar when the going gets tough
The point is just because a player is not mentally tough, does not mean he is no good
T
Like I said before, its just trying to be clever and prove that you know more than others that make fans talk about tactics, for goodness sakes leave that trash to journalists and managers not me and you
I am not interested in how organised my team is but how well they play and if you outscore a side, you win pure and simple
Whats the point in being so solid ay the back but cannot score goals and then lose on penalties?
Germany dominate the Cl? Please enlighten me when that has ever happened, yes you have had Bayer Leverkusen in the final and thats only after they have all gone out and its only Bayern that has been remotely consistent
I have never said English teams are the best or are dominant or anything like that, all I have been saying forever is that they are not as bad as you guys are trying to portray them
They are in a no win situation anyways cos even if Arsenal , Chelsea or Liverpool do anything, the praise will go to a Frenchman, Portugues or a Spanish bloke
Back to the all Italian semi or all Italian final, do u not think that the rest of the world would pray it does not happen that often cos of the way they decided to bore the pants off ppl who are not into that kinda boring tactical stuff?
Yes a solid team starts at the back but they are not necessarily exciting and would not necessarily have the most fans
@Andy , now lets turn that around a bit, Zz will always play better when the lights are out and the rest of the world is watching on the bigger stage but he did not always show up in small games where you need to win the league as some of his league performances for Juve proved
Ronaldo, does little in way of team contribution, be it in small games or big games but he too like s the big stage though he did choke quite spectacularly in 94 final
Ronaldinho is just a work of art so i have nothing to say against him
Lets look at Totti, he plays very well in SerieA for his home town club, Roma but has he ever cut it at Cl level, save for a few goals against Spanish opposition and what has he done for the NT, yes he had a good Euro2000 but then more was expected of Dp and not him and when was the last time he actually played well against a good Juve or Milan?.
Lets not even talk about the guy in my avatar when the going gets tough
The point is just because a player is not mentally tough, does not mean he is no good
T
Okay, thats all fine and dandy. However I think that the best players in the world perform on the big stage, in the limelights, when the pressure is on, when the stakes are against them. Its one thing to be very good in a league like the EPL or Serie A, in which there is always a next game. So in that way the pressure is off a bit compared to knockout tournaments such as the CL and WC. I have always maintained that the best players play well in every competition...
....This cannot be said about Henry, as he has not really impressed outside of the EPL and few good matches in the CL. In the last WC Henry did absolutely nothing, and then in Euro 2004 I do not remember him doing anything. He did not leave an impression. That tells me that Henry can't cut it on the big stage. Coincidence with the league he plays in? Maybe so but thats another story..
I have never thought of Totti to be a World Class player and to me he is the bane of Italy. Totti does not do much to inspire the Azzurri with his childish acts on the pitch, and the NT seems to play better without the Totti monkey on their backs. He can only perform with his Roma side, so he goes in the same class as Henry.
Zidane has been the best player in the world since Maradona, and he has shown the utmost class in all competitions he has played in. He was great with Juventus (before Ancelloti), he was simply amazing in France 98 leading Les Blues to winning the WC, he was very good in Euro 2000 and in Euro 2004 he was class especially against England of all countries. Thats a great player.
Ronaldo might do little to help the team overall but he scores goals wherever he goes, no matter the competition. This is something Henry cannot do and in my books he will not go down as one of the world's top players in history.
Edit: Hmm, are there any players in the EPL that are actually world class?
....This cannot be said about Henry, as he has not really impressed outside of the EPL and few good matches in the CL. In the last WC Henry did absolutely nothing, and then in Euro 2004 I do not remember him doing anything. He did not leave an impression. That tells me that Henry can't cut it on the big stage. Coincidence with the league he plays in? Maybe so but thats another story..
I have never thought of Totti to be a World Class player and to me he is the bane of Italy. Totti does not do much to inspire the Azzurri with his childish acts on the pitch, and the NT seems to play better without the Totti monkey on their backs. He can only perform with his Roma side, so he goes in the same class as Henry.
Zidane has been the best player in the world since Maradona, and he has shown the utmost class in all competitions he has played in. He was great with Juventus (before Ancelloti), he was simply amazing in France 98 leading Les Blues to winning the WC, he was very good in Euro 2000 and in Euro 2004 he was class especially against England of all countries. Thats a great player.
Ronaldo might do little to help the team overall but he scores goals wherever he goes, no matter the competition. This is something Henry cannot do and in my books he will not go down as one of the world's top players in history.
Edit: Hmm, are there any players in the EPL that are actually world class?
Yes there are world class players in the premiership maybe they are not world class in your eyes but they are all the same.
Bergkamp is a world class player and so are Campbell, Cole as in Ashley, Henry despite your reservations is world class by anyone's definition.Vieiria has very few peers in the midfield department
Van Nistelrooy is world class, Rooney is a world class talent in the making, Ferdinand is a world class defender and Heinz is looking the part. giggs is a world class talent and Scholes and Ronaldo aint too shabby either
Cech is a world class goal keeper, Terry is almost getting there, not too many defenders are as versatile as gallas, Cavalho just oozes class, Makelle@s absence is still felt at Real Madrid, Lampard is getting there, Robben is world class, Duff has his moments of world class
Gudjohnsen is a higly under rated talent and has the potential to be world clas if he is not that already as is Drogba
Gerard is a world class midfielder as is Alonso
No there are no world class players in the Epl just because you say so
And by your reckoning anyone who shines on the big stage is a world class performer like Baros, Klose, and so many other players wh have scored in big tournaments
By the way Henry scored 4 goals in the world cup 98, 3 in euro 2000, 2 in euro2004 and he played only 1 and a half games as an out an out winger in 2002 as he was sent off.
But by your definition of world class, Sheva is not 1 as he has not played in a big tournament with his country.
Point of note , Zidane was very good in world cup 98, not amazing, if he didnt score those 2 goals in the final, he would not have gotten the world acclaim he thoroughly deserves as he was better in 2000 imo
But then again how many players that have played the game are actually better than Zidane
I see that in order for you to prove that Henry aint so great, you have to pick all time greats, why not just compare him to the very goods and you would see how he holds up
Yes the Epl flatters him a little but you cannot say he is not world clas because he is
Bergkamp is a world class player and so are Campbell, Cole as in Ashley, Henry despite your reservations is world class by anyone's definition.Vieiria has very few peers in the midfield department
Van Nistelrooy is world class, Rooney is a world class talent in the making, Ferdinand is a world class defender and Heinz is looking the part. giggs is a world class talent and Scholes and Ronaldo aint too shabby either
Cech is a world class goal keeper, Terry is almost getting there, not too many defenders are as versatile as gallas, Cavalho just oozes class, Makelle@s absence is still felt at Real Madrid, Lampard is getting there, Robben is world class, Duff has his moments of world class
Gudjohnsen is a higly under rated talent and has the potential to be world clas if he is not that already as is Drogba
Gerard is a world class midfielder as is Alonso
No there are no world class players in the Epl just because you say so
And by your reckoning anyone who shines on the big stage is a world class performer like Baros, Klose, and so many other players wh have scored in big tournaments
By the way Henry scored 4 goals in the world cup 98, 3 in euro 2000, 2 in euro2004 and he played only 1 and a half games as an out an out winger in 2002 as he was sent off.
But by your definition of world class, Sheva is not 1 as he has not played in a big tournament with his country.
Point of note , Zidane was very good in world cup 98, not amazing, if he didnt score those 2 goals in the final, he would not have gotten the world acclaim he thoroughly deserves as he was better in 2000 imo
But then again how many players that have played the game are actually better than Zidane
I see that in order for you to prove that Henry aint so great, you have to pick all time greats, why not just compare him to the very goods and you would see how he holds up
Yes the Epl flatters him a little but you cannot say he is not world clas because he is
denco, By your reasoning and construed arguement there would be over 40 world class players in the world.
In my books, these are the only world class players in the EPL: Lampard, Vieira, Van Nistelrooy, Ferdinand, Terry, Carvalho and Cech. Some players like Gerrard are overrated its not funny and to say Heinz is a world class defender is pure blasphemy. I really do not see how over 20 players can be world class, to me thats a strecth and it sort of broadens the term "world class." Not good.
But of course you going to say to me this to me that, but the fact of the matter is everybody sees the game differently. So if you think there are 20 world class players in the EPL, so be it.
In my books, these are the only world class players in the EPL: Lampard, Vieira, Van Nistelrooy, Ferdinand, Terry, Carvalho and Cech. Some players like Gerrard are overrated its not funny and to say Heinz is a world class defender is pure blasphemy. I really do not see how over 20 players can be world class, to me thats a strecth and it sort of broadens the term "world class." Not good.
But of course you going to say to me this to me that, but the fact of the matter is everybody sees the game differently. So if you think there are 20 world class players in the EPL, so be it.