EPL Bullshit (4 Viewers)

Chxta · Jan 3, 2005

Hey Nicole, do understand tactics in football or you're just one of those who love the English kick and follow?

For your information, most teams outside of England do not take the UEFA Cup seriously (remember the way we don't take our own versions of the FA Cup serious?).

For 2, the Champion's League (which really matters) has not had an English winner (bar ManU) in the last 15 years. U might want to bring up the ban, but I think that's bollocks. Andy chose 15 years because that's 1989, the year England returned to the fold.

No, u talked about NT performances (Euro 2004 as an example), once again, that's bollocks. How many Brazilian NT players or Argentinian NT players ply their trade at home? National Teams are drawn basically from the European Leagues (of which England's one of the best, granted).

So please let's face facts, the EPL's good, but not good enough.

QED!

baggio · Jan 3, 2005

Let me start by addressing you on the issue of Chelsea not having won anything so far. Your just strengthening my case of the EPL being so predictable, that its only ever Man u or Arsenal who do win in England. Now coming to this season, the trend is seemingly in favour of Chelsea, while Arsenal play catchup. And Man U? If your a betting man, your sensibilities i presume will not allow you to put your money on Man U, if im not mistaken. So where does that bring us? Back to square one? Seemngly, only two teams up for the title, AGAIN. And that too, is supposed to be for the better considering Man U have won a majority of the titles in the last decade, by healthy margins.

Sure, i agree the EPL is fast paced, no doubt. But a 4-4 draw between the likes of a Middelsborough and ermm maybe a Birmingham city do not indicate quality, but rather the lack of it to me. I'm sorry i havent ever seen Man U - Arsenal play out a 4-4 draw. So really, i dont see where your argument stems from as far high scores indicating quality are concerned. But yes i did happen to see a 3-3 draw between Inter and Roma. Infact, i happened to see it only this season. And while we're at it if my memory serves me correctly, Juve lost to Man U -3-0, after having put out a flu inflicted squad. Common, you'd remember that as a Juve fan wouldnt you?Its alright if you dont. But hey common im sure you remember the 7-0 in Turin against Olympiakos? Just a reminder about Serie A sides and their goal scoring abilities... oh yea and as regards the 5-1 Inter loss in the San Siro, dint they beat Arsenal by 3 goals at Highbury the very same season? As for Milan, sure they let in 4 goals against Depor. But please tell me how you forgot Depor needed those many to put it past Milan because of the 4-1 result that Milan got at the Siro, in the first leg.

Results aside, lets look at some business prospects here. Man United became the biggest marketing project in the history of football. But really did two Champions League titles and what 18 league titles warrant such success of the field? Even if you were a Man U fan, you'd say no. Why? Because purely on football success alone there are clubs that are bigger and better than Man United. The problem? Those clubs arent English, so they arent hyped. Guess who figured that out? Florintino Perez. He then decided to buy the poster boy of the EPL and the saturated Asian market, and well, Real Madrid and that too not because of their illustrous footballing glory but because of their English No. 23 player become the pretenders to the throne of the richest and most well marketed club in the world. Do you see what im trying to get at? Its all about hype, not quality. Its all about distribution packages, and monopolising the fanatical markets in this age of consumerism.

Yea, sure Roma has bombed in this year's CL. But the EPL, home to Arsenal who have rarely ever threatened to take home the cup in recent history, And Liverpool? Arent they just happy to be in the CL this season? Chelsea...lets see if money can buy titles.

The case in point: some may find the serie a boring. Which is fine. But like you say two sides to a coin. You want to see attacking football turn on the Dutch Eridivisie. You wont doubt the quality, you wont see the hype, just hardcore attacking, quality football. Too bad, those guys arent English.

Need you say more?

Chxta · Jan 3, 2005

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++

Let me start by addressing you on the issue of Chelsea not having won anything so far. Your just strengthening my case of the EPL being so predictable, that its only ever Man u or Arsenal who do win in England. Now coming to this season, the trend is seemingly in favour of Chelsea, while Arsenal play catchup. And Man U? If your a betting man, your sensibilities i presume will not allow you to put your money on Man U, if im not mistaken. So where does that bring us? Back to square one? Seemngly, only two teams up for the title, AGAIN. And that too, is supposed to be for the better considering Man U have won a majority of the titles in the last decade, by healthy margins.

Sure, i agree the EPL is fast paced, no doubt. But a 4-4 draw between the likes of a Middelsborough and ermm maybe a Birmingham city do not indicate quality, but rather the lack of it to me. I'm sorry i havent ever seen Man U - Arsenal play out a 4-4 draw. So really, i dont see where your argument stems from as far high scores indicating quality are concerned. But yes i did happen to see a 3-3 draw between Inter and Roma. Infact, i happened to see it only this season. And while we're at it if my memory serves me correctly, Juve lost to Man U -3-0, after having put out a flu inflicted squad. Common, you'd remember that as a Juve fan wouldnt you?Its alright if you dont. But hey common im sure you remember the 7-0 in Turin against Olympiakos? Just a reminder about Serie A sides and their goal scoring abilities... oh yea and as regards the 5-1 Inter loss in the San Siro, dint they beat Arsenal by 3 goals at Highbury the very same season? As for Milan, sure they let in 4 goals against Depor. But please tell me how you forgot Depor needed those many to put it past Milan because of the 4-1 result that Milan got at the Siro, in the first leg.

Results aside, lets look at some business prospects here. Man United became the biggest marketing project in the history of football. But really did two Champions League titles and what 18 league titles warrant such success of the field? Even if you were a Man U fan, you'd say no. Why? Because purely on football success alone there are clubs that are bigger and better than Man United. The problem? Those clubs arent English, so they arent hyped. Guess who figured that out? Florintino Perez. He then decided to buy the poster boy of the EPL and the saturated Asian market, and well, Real Madrid and that too not because of their illustrous footballing glory but because of their English No. 23 player become the pretenders to the throne of the richest and most well marketed club in the world. Do you see what im trying to get at? Its all about hype, not quality. Its all about distribution packages, and monopolising the fanatical markets in this age of consumerism.

Yea, sure Roma has bombed in this year's CL. But the EPL, home to Arsenal who have rarely ever threatened to take home the cup in recent history, And Liverpool? Arent they just happy to be in the CL this season? Chelsea...lets see if money can buy titles.

The case in point: some may find the serie a boring. Which is fine. But like you say two sides to a coin. You want to see attacking football turn on the Dutch Eridivisie. You wont doubt the quality, you wont see the hype, just hardcore attacking, quality football. Too bad, those guys arent English.

Need you say more?

Great post. Where you at Baggio? Havard?

Desmond · Jan 5, 2005

The problem with many EPL fans is that they tend to harp on specific matches and results eg. the Man Utd - Juve matchups and Arsenal's drubbing of Inter etc.

My question to you is this:

Do you really think winning individual matches against opposition from another league proves more than actually winning the Champion's League itself?

denco · Jan 5, 2005

I was not gonna post here until i read your post as some of my posts have a habit of disappearing for no reasons which i find diabolical actually.

You say only Man united and Arsenal are likely to win the leagure in Epl like its the only league that it happens. If you do not know then know now in SerieA it is always Milan or Juve, you finish ahead of either or both , then you have won the league and its being like that since Maradona left, sure Sampdoria, Roma and Lazio have won the league but it has always been those 2 clubs

From almost the first game of the season and now in christmas its apparent only Juve and Milan will win it, last season from christmas every one but the very optimistic knew Milan were going to win it.

Fyi we didnt suffer from flu when we lost 3-0 to Manu we lost 2-1 when we suffered from flu

How is it that when you watch Inter play Roma 3-3 its great attacking play but not terrible defending but when Arsenal play Spurs and its 5-4 its bad defending?

No , Epl teams do not win Cl and all that , maybe because they are not tactically astute but also becos they are not cynical enuff, afterall the great Brazilian sides didnt win anything until they became cynical in 1994

Chxta · Jan 6, 2005

The Brazilian side of 1974 was one of the most cynical I ever saw, so please stop talking about cynicism. If cynical always won out then why didn't Italy win the World Cup in 1990?
The 'cynical' Brazil of 1994 played arguably the best match of that tournament with Holland.

Desmond · Jan 6, 2005

If you compare the two leagues it's very obvious that there is more competitiveness where league title challengers are concerned.Arsenal and Man Utd have utterly dominated the domestic league giving no other team any chance whatsoever,while in Italy we've seen Roma,Inter,Lazio,Milan and Juve compete for the Scudetto.Sure there is a certain degree of domination with juve winning 1 of every three titles but you often see the decider go down to the wire,almost to the last day.Newcastle,Liverpool and until last season Chelsea never could even dream of overhauling the big two.In the last five years we've seen Lazio astonishingly beat an erratic Juve to the title and of course that unforgettable final day when Inter lost 4-2 against Lazio and ended up finishing third behind both Roma and Juve.Sure Milan won it last season but just three seasons ago or so they ended up in 4th or 5th,now where do you see that in England?

denco · Jan 6, 2005

Who gives a rat's ass if the Brazilian team of 74 was the most cynicalk , u have ever seen, does tha make them the most cynical? Where did i say cynicism always won, and so what if Brazil and Holland was the best match of the tournament even if from my personal point of view Argentina vs Romania was a better game , the fact still remains that that Brazil was not as free flowing as other Brazilian teams and teams like Holland were way to free flowing for their own good in 74 to have won the wc. Maybe thats Arsenal's problem, I do not know as if they decide to close up shop, play not to lose and mark out the opponent's dangermen, they might have gone further than they have done but they cannot as the only way then know how to play is attack

But for some reason, this is condemned by ppl like you

@ Desmond, oh Lazio and Roma have won the league but so have Blackburn and Leeds but the bottom line is that Juve and Milan invariably are always there, its not a criticm by me , its just you guys make it out like the SerieA is so competitive that more than 2 teams can win it. I mean Man united have come third twice in 3 seasons and I do not remember a period in 14 years where Milan or Juve have been outside the top 2 at the same time

The fact that Liverpool and Newcastle have made a fist of it, would not deceive me they can win it at the time but its the same with your parallel with Inter and the others

I would not watch the Epl over SerieA but to start to read ppl constantly put it down as crap is not on as its not, it might not be your cup of tea but is not crap and its easy to see why ppl prefer it to most if not all other leagues becos of everything, the atmosphere, the silly defending, the great goals and the ridiculous goals, the pace and the never give in attitude and some of the teams can actually play.

baggio · Jan 6, 2005

Like i said earlier, this season apart and with a more generic viewpoint, the Serie A until 1999 boasted of seven contenders all equally capable of winning the championship. And despite the end of that era, Lazio and Roma even went on to win titles in two consecutive seasons despite it supposedly being the dominant era of Juve and Milan. I dont think i can say the same for the Epl. No team, not even Arsenal could challenge Man United when they were at their peak. And even when Arsenal managed to pip them it was few and far between. At all other times, Man United had it in the bag well in advance. While if you look at the Serie A, in the last 5 seasons, at least on 3 occasions it went down to the last day iirc.

Yes, we did lose 2-1 to Man United at Trafford, however, I'd like to point out that i never said it was a second string team that lost 3-0 to Man Untied, but it was a flu ravaged one that had been affected in the buildup considering the second match in Turin, came only a week after the first wherein we were severely affected. Lets not forget, Lippi himself missed training sessions because of how bad we were hit. Despite that, full credit to Man U for taking advantage of the situation. But to be honest, i dont think that represents fairly the true abilities of the teams vis a vis one another.

I may speak for myself here, but I'd much rather watch an Inter-Roma high scoring draw rather than an Arsenal-Tot Hotspur. Because in all honesty, the quality on show at the former, quite clearly eclipses the latter, even though the hype would make bandwagon fans believe otherwise. Totti, Cassano, Adriano, Vieri, Martins Vs Henry, Robbie Keane, Pires, Reyes. Take your pick.

Sure the Epl may not be tactically astute and alluring to some fans but on the other hand its quick, fast and fun to watch for others. But putting the lack of Cl trophies down to not being cynical enough is imo taking away from sides that have actually earned their fans and glory the hard way.

Chxta · Jan 6, 2005

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++

I may speak for myself here, but I'd much rather watch an Inter-Roma high scoring draw rather than an Arsenal-Tot Hotspur. Because in all honesty, the quality on show at the former, quite clearly eclipses the latter, even though the hype would make bandwagon fans believe otherwise. Totti, Cassano, Adriano, Vieri, Martins Vs Henry, Robbie Keane, Pires, Reyes. Take your pick.

You speak not just for yourself, but for us all. Denco included.

Bjerknes · Jan 6, 2005

So denco, will you finally admit that the English Premier League is overrated?

Lawnchair Bes · Jan 7, 2005

we all know it is overrated

Fred · Jan 7, 2005

i cnat wait for Man utd to kick milans ass(although i dont think it will happen:down

anyway i bet english teams will do better than italian ones in the CL this season.
care to make it interesting Andy?

Martin · Jan 7, 2005

You're damn right it's not gonna happen

denco · Jan 7, 2005

Overrated? Of cos it is and so is la liga and SerieA. Lets put in perpective, its just Milan that can be proud of their record in Cl, no other serieA side, just like only Real Madrid in Spain

Baggio how many times will i say this we were not flu ravaged when we lost 3-0 we were flu ravaged whe we lost 2-1

Let me just stop by saying this , there is noone and i mean noone in SerieA who has the |God given talents of JJ Okocha in SerieA, there are few strikers who are better than Defoe when u take away all the silly hype

How many strikers can score and provide Like Henry, how many box to box all action midfielders are like Gerrard in the league.
The likes of Robben, Duff, lampard , Bergkamp, Reyes, Van the man, and so many more are not bad players.
The Italian team has not won anything since 82, does this mean they are crap?.

Also if the quality is so good in SerieA how come every season of late, the teams that have just been promoted seem to do better than a lot of the sides that are there already or dont tell me the quality in serieB is also brilliant

Bjerknes · Jan 7, 2005

Right, so every top League is overrated just because the EPL is. What an arguement.

Once in 15 years denco, once...

Defoe? I can name a bunch of strikers that are better than Defoe. Shevchenko, Adriano, Gilardino, Ibrahimovic, Bojinov, Martins....hell, even Di Michele....

Yeah, they are not bad players. Have you ever wondered why Henry is so good in the EPL but not so in Europe, denco? I have an idea, maybe its because the defenses are much better in Europe, especially with Spanish and Italian sides. Sure Henry looks like the best striker in the world in the EPL, however, it would not be the case if he came to Italy.

denco, no offense, but you speak like a true Englishman on this subject. The EPL is overrated because so many pundits, fans, journalists call the league the best in the world. However, this cannot be the case with the record of English teams in the Champions League and by watching enough matches you will see that the level of defending is quite horrid compared to that in Italy. Sure, this might make the game more exciting, but just because many goals are scored does not mean its the best in the world. Maybe the EPL is more exciting to fans who like fast pace football, and hate defending. But I cannot accept people saying that the EPL is the best in the world when players and teams over in Italy have to break through some of the best defenses in the world. This compared with free-for-all defending, seems much more impressive. But people still say that the EPL is the best in the world. I guess there will always be fans who know nothing about football.

baggio · Jan 7, 2005

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
Also if the quality is so good in SerieA how come every season of late, the teams that have just been promoted seem to do better than a lot of the sides that are there already or dont tell me the quality in serieB is also brilliant

Thanks for proving my point: healthy competition.

Fred · Jan 8, 2005

Henry not so good in europe?come on yeah he might not take on 3-4 players all by himself like what he does against Norwich,West Brom,Blackburn e.t.c but he's got 34 goals in the CL which is rather good seeing to the fact that Ronaldo(9) doesnt even have half that amount,i'm not sure about Shevchenko but all the juve strikers put together dont have that amount:cheesy:

Lawnchair Bes · Jan 8, 2005

++ [ originally posted by fred weasley ] ++
Henry not so good in europe?come on yeah he might not take on 3-4 players all by himself like what he does against Norwich,West Brom,Blackburn e.t.c but he's got 34 goals in the CL which is rather good seeing to the fact that Ronaldo(9) doesnt even have half that amount,i'm not sure about Shevchenko but all the juve strikers put together dont have that amount:cheesy:

DP has more than 30

Bjerknes · Jan 8, 2005

Del Piero has about 35 and Trezeguet has like 15. Do the math Freddy.

EPL Bullshit (4 Viewers)

Onye kwe, Chi ya ekwe

Senior Member

Onye kwe, Chi ya ekwe

Senior Member

Superior Being

Onye kwe, Chi ya ekwe

Senior Member

Superior Being

Senior Member

Onye kwe, Chi ya ekwe

"Top Economist"

The Loser

Senior Member

Senior Member

Superior Being

"Top Economist"

Senior Member

Senior Member

The Loser

"Top Economist"

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 4)