Egypt: from 2011 demonstrations to today (10 Viewers)

Jul 2, 2006
18,784
Nope. A promise is a promise.

Plus, I go to Istanbul quite often. I need him to find some stuff for me and for getting info :D And I really don't want to face the angry Turk.
I don't blame you.

He comes across as a dangerous man. I know you say he's a gentle giant in real life, and I'll take your word for it, but he scares me TBH.
I am allergic to injustice, other than that i am an ordinary person like you not an orc. Ok everyone had fun, enough off-topic.

Again a Salafi muslim would consider you and your brotherhood non-muslim. I'll give you a test:

Do you believe Slavery should be legal?
Do you believe apostates should be executed if they do not repent?
Do you believe homosexuals should be executed?
Do you believe Marriage should be legal regardless of the age of the wife as long as she has bled?
Do you believe married adulterers should be stoned to death?
Do you believe unmarried adulterers should be flogged?
Do you believe that Democracy should be replaced with a monarch like Caliphate system?
Do you believe that Christians and Jews in Turkey should not be allowed to run for high offices nor join the military and pay a Jizya?
Do you believe that people who aren't muslim, christian or Jewish should not be allowed to live in Turkey?

Answer the questions with yes or no and why if its no.
If you answer all yes then I would consider you a muslim by your own standards.
Again, if you accept Islamic view on this matters but not apply them, you're still a Muslim.
 

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Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,397
I am allergic to injustice, other than that i am an ordinary person like you not an orc. Ok everyone had fun, enough off-topic.



Again, if you accept Islamic view on this matters but not apply them, you're still a Muslim.
I know. But do you accept these or not as what OUGHT to be done?
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,397
One has to be realistic, applying these after all of those years under secular regime is not something can be done from today to tomorrow. It would take many years.
So thats a yes. You approve of these values and take them as you own. I respect that. I sincerely respect that. You are consistent and I respect that in a mind. more than I respect a liberal-islamic hybrid value system.

One thing though, the majority of those who identify themselves as muslims arent like you. They have the hybrid value systems.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
So thats a yes. You approve of these values and take them as you own. I respect that. I sincerely respect that. You are consistent and I respect that in a mind. more than I respect a liberal-islamic hybrid value system.
mistake.

Lack of consistency is frustrating, but purity is not the solution. Purity is the fascism. People have conflicting beliefs because they are trying to unify a lot of concerns, some contradictory. That's not a human failing, it's a coping mechanism that's absolutely critical.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,397
You respect Hitler too?

Edit: I mean his beliefs.
hmm.. its not exactly the same. Religions claim they are divinely inspired with faith as the grounds for belief. If I had faith that a religion was truly divinely inspired that would make its value system absolute to me and I'd follow it to the end (like Turk). I am not a person of faith however thats why I have rational backing when I am completely arbitrary in deciding which values to adopt and which to ignore.

On a pure philosophical/rational basis, no moral/value system is absolute. Fascism is on the same non-existing grounds as humanitarianism. If Hitler thought that his system was THE True system then he is simply mistaken. If he, however, was aware that he is being arbitrary and just as irrational as everyone else and yet proceeded to do what he did anyway then he is not mistaken he is just a powerful man that imposed his will on others.

I arbitrarily adopt most parts of the humanitarian value system and by virtue of that I am opposed to fascism or Islamism etc... and I condemn those who take actions that are not in line with my value system. So Hitler, Taliban, whatever I dont respect them no. but I do respect being rationally consistent out of awareness even if it never materializes into action.
 
Jul 2, 2006
18,784
Robert Fisk, another Islamist bigot fella he is.

Cairo massacre: After today, what Muslim will ever trust the ballot box again?

This marks a tragic turning point, from which it will take Egypt years to recover

The Egyptian crucible has broken. The “unity” of Egypt – that all-embracing, patriotic, essential glue that has bound the nation together since the overthrow of the monarchy in 1952 and the rule of Nasser – has melted amid the massacres, gun battles and fury of yesterday’s suppression of the Muslim Brotherhood. A hundred dead – 200, 300 “martyrs” – makes no difference to the outcome: for millions of Egyptians, the path of democracy has been torn up amid live fire and brutality. What Muslim seeking a state based on his or her religion will ever trust the ballot box again?

This is the real story of today’s bloodbath. Who can be surprised that some Muslim Brotherhood supporters were wielding Kalashnikovs on the streets of Cairo? Or that supporters of the army and its “interim government” – in middle-class areas of the capital, no less – have seized their weapons or produced their own and started shooting back. This is not Brotherhood vs army, though that is how our Western statesmen will mendaciously try to portray this tragedy. Today’s violence has created a cruel division within Egyptian society that will take years to heal; between leftists and secularists and Christian Copts and Sunni Muslim villagers, between people and police, between Brotherhood and army. That is why Mohamed el-Baradei resigned tonight. The burning of churches was an inevitable corollary of this terrible business.

In Algeria in 1992, in Cairo in 2013 – and who knows what happens in Tunisia in the coming weeks and months? – Muslims who won power, fairly and democratically through the common vote, have been hurled from power. And who can forget our vicious siege of Gaza when Palestinians voted – again democratically – for Hamas? No matter how many mistakes the Brotherhood made in Egypt – no matter how promiscuous or fatuous their rule – the democratically elected president Mohamed Morsi was overthrown by the army. It was a coup, and John McCain was right to use that word.

The Brotherhood, of course, should long ago have curbed its amour propre and tried to keep within the shell of the pseudo-democracy that the army permitted in Egypt – not because it was fair or acceptable or just, but because the alternative was bound to be a return to clandestinity, to midnight arrests and torture and martyrdom. This has been the historical role of the Brotherhood – with periods of shameful collaboration with British occupiers and Egyptian military dictators – and a return to the darkness suggests only two outcomes: that the Brotherhood will be extinguished in violence, or will succeed at some far distant date – heaven spare Egypt such a fate – in creating an Islamist autocracy.

The pundits went about their poisonous work today before the first corpse was in its grave. Can Egypt avoid a civil war? Will the “terrorist” Brotherhood be wiped out by the loyal army? What about those who demonstrated before Morsi’s overthrow? Tony Blair was only one of those who talked of impending “chaos” in bestowing their support on General Abdul-Fattah al-Sisi. Every violent incident in Sinai, every gun in the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood will now be used to persuade the world that the organisation – far from being a poorly armed but well-organised Islamist movement – was the right arm of al-Qa’ida.

History may take a different view. It will certainly be hard to explain how many thousands – yes, perhaps millions – of educated, liberal Egyptians continued to give their wholehearted support to the general who spent much time after the overthrow of Mubarak justifying the army’s virginity tests of female protesters in Tahrir Square. Al-Sisi will come under much scrutiny in the coming days; he was always reputedly sympathetic to the Brotherhood, although this idea may have been provoked by his wife’s wearing of the niqab. And many of the middle-class intellectuals who have thrown their support behind the army will have to squeeze their consciences into a bottle to accommodate future events.

Could Nobel Prize-holder and nuclear expert Mohamed el-Baradei, the most famous personality – in Western eyes, but not in Egyptian - in the 'interim government’, whose social outlook and integrity looked frighteningly at odds with 'his’ government’s actions today, have stayed in power? Of course not. He had to go, for he never intended such an outcome to his political power gamble when he agreed to prop up the army’s choice of ministers after last month’s coup. But the coterie of writers and artists who insisted on regarding the coup as just another stage in the revolution of 2011 will - after the blood and el-Baradei’s resignation – have to use some pretty anguished linguistics to escape moral blame for these events.

Stand by, of course, for the usual jargon questions. Does this mean the end of political Islam? For the moment, certainly; the Brotherhood is in no mood to try any more experiments in democracy – a refusal which is the immediate danger in Egypt. For without freedom, there is violence. Will Egypt turn into another Syria? Unlikely. Egypt is neither a sectarian state – it never has been, even with 10 per cent of its people Christian – nor an inherently violent one. It never experienced the savagery of Algerian uprisings against the French, or Syrian, Lebanese and Palestinian insurgencies against both the British and the French. But ghosts aplenty will hang their heads in shame today; that great revolutionary lawyer of the 1919 rising, for example, Saad Zaghloul. And General Muhammad Neguib whose 1952 revolutionary tracts read so much like the demands of the people of Tahrir in 2011.

But yes, something died in Egypt today. Not the revolution, for across the Arab world the integrity of ownership – of people demanding that they, not their leaders, own their own country – remains, however bloodstained. Innocence died, of course, as it does after every revolution. No, what expired today was the idea that Egypt was the everlasting mother of the Arab nation, the nationalist ideal, the purity of history in which Egypt regarded all her people as her children. For the Brotherhood victims today – along with the police and pro-government supporters – were also children of Egypt. And no one said so. They had become the “terrorists”, the enemy of the people. That is Egypt’s new heritage.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-ever-trust-the-ballot-box-again-8762021.html

You respect Hitler too?

Edit: I mean his beliefs.
I don't respect the belief of racial superiority. Every nation have its great and vile people. Why are people here so interested in what i respect or not?
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,397
mistake.

Lack of consistency is frustrating, but purity is not the solution. Purity is the fascism. People have conflicting beliefs because they are trying to unify a lot of concerns, some contradictory. That's not a human failing, it's a coping mechanism that's absolutely critical.
I dont mind inconsistency as long as it is coupled with awareness. If you are a hybrid muslim while knowing that half your value system is in contradiction with Islam but you adopt that system anyway then I'd respect that. If you take refuge in some debates about interpretations of religion making it seem that we have no idea what Islam really says as if the Quran was empty then I dont respect that as much.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,397
Yeah, that's quite odd since you are nothing but a dumb kid living in denial and is full of hatred.
He has a different value system than most of us here its not about anger or hate. This was the norm everywhere in the world its just that globalization has merged value systems together. If you brought the liberal value system in my part of the world most people would give you a very weird look and you might be prosecuted for protecting the gays or the atheists. Go back 400 years or so in Europe and the value system you hold today would be laughed at.

Humanitarianism is as dogmatic as Islamism in the sense that neither has any rational foundations. If you look at an Islamist from a humanitarian perspective he'll seem like an abomination. When the Islamist looks at us we seem as infidels. Under Islamic law I should be killed for being an apostate but I dont see myself as morally superior to any of them.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,440
Robert Fisk, another Islamist bigot fella he is.

Cairo massacre: After today, what Muslim will ever trust the ballot box again?
If I were Muslim, I'd be pissed that this douchebag annointed some minority fringe group as the true voice of Muslim identity while pretty much calling the 90 million other Muslims who wanted the clowns out as "non-Muslim heathens".

Who the fuck he is to say who is truly Muslim or not? What gives him the right?
 

Hængebøffer

Senior Member
Jun 4, 2009
25,185
He has a different value system than most of us here its not about anger or hate. This was the norm everywhere in the world its just that globalization has merged value systems together. If you brought the liberal value system in my part of the world most people would give you a very weird look and you might be prosecuted for protecting the gays or the atheists. Go back 400 years or so in Europe and the value system you hold today would be laughed at.

Humanitarianism is as dogmatic as Islamism in the sense that neither has any rational foundations. If you look at an Islamist from a humanitarian perspective he'll seem like an abomination. When the Islamist looks at us we seem as infidels. Under Islamic law I should be killed for being an apostate but I dont see myself as morally superior to any of them.
Different values are not an excuse. We will never agree on this, since we have different opinions about freedom.
 

Eddy

The Maestro
Aug 20, 2005
12,644
He has a different value system than most of us here its not about anger or hate. This was the norm everywhere in the world its just that globalization has merged value systems together. If you brought the liberal value system in my part of the world most people would give you a very weird look and you might be prosecuted for protecting the gays or the atheists. Go back 400 years or so in Europe and the value system you hold today would be laughed at.

Humanitarianism is as dogmatic as Islamism in the sense that neither has any rational foundations. If you look at an Islamist from a humanitarian perspective he'll seem like an abomination. When the Islamist looks at us we seem as infidels. Under Islamic law I should be killed for being an apostate but I dont see myself as morally superior to any of them.
Good point.

Different values are not an excuse. We will never agree on this, since we have different opinions about freedom.
It depends, there's a lot of factors here in the Middle-East that contribute to what's going on and one of the most important is the tribal mentality that still exists today. It's not as beneficial as it once was but it's still there.
 

Maddy

Oracle of Copenhagen
Jul 10, 2009
16,541
He has a different value system than most of us here its not about anger or hate. This was the norm everywhere in the world its just that globalization has merged value systems together. If you brought the liberal value system in my part of the world most people would give you a very weird look and you might be prosecuted for protecting the gays or the atheists. Go back 400 years or so in Europe and the value system you hold today would be laughed at.

Humanitarianism is as dogmatic as Islamism in the sense that neither has any rational foundations. If you look at an Islamist from a humanitarian perspective he'll seem like an abomination. When the Islamist looks at us we seem as infidels. Under Islamic law I should be killed for being an apostate but I dont see myself as morally superior to any of them.
ty for da lecture mah man. but you missed it. and pls dont call me and you us. ty XOXO

his values has nothing to do with his hatred towards the west and jews. that has something to do with how he has been 'taught' to see the world by the bigots that surrounds him.

you cannot excuse his stupidity and lack of nuances with his values. radical muslims might not learn to think for them self. but some do.. turk doesnt.

turk is full of hatred. just look at his post in this thread. its obvious to everyone.

btw. spot on on those 400 years. its time for muslims and the islamic world to modernize and leave behind the reactionary thoughts of medieval time backed by a fictional character ie. mr alla.
 

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