Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (19 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dinsdale
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The thing is, some religious beliefs require you to "dumb down" your mind in order to have faith since the mortal enemy of faith is knowledge.
The basis of any religion is that you must believe something someone else tells you is true, even though your mind tells you it is a lie and it makes no sense. There is name for that: fideism. Without fideism, the concept of religion would not exist.
The basis of any religion is that you must believe something someone else tells you is true, even though your mind tells you it is a lie and it makes no sense. There is name for that: fideism. Without fideism, the concept of religion would not exist.
im also gonna use simple logic.
i know you are not gay. infact, you "hate" men and i know that. so i let you chose who do you wanna sleep with, Monica Bellucci when she was still young or Carlo Tavecchio. so, i know in advance who you would chose but i still give you the chance to chose by yourself. does that take away the free will from you? no. its as simple as that.
the second part im gonna answer with a verse in the Quran, Surah Baqara, 30th verse:
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
see how the angels noticed long before that there will be blood on Earth. could God create us like angels and make us mistakeless? yes. why didnt He do it? because He had something else in mind for us. we are the best of His creations and his representatives here and we were put on Earth as a great test. so why did He create us in the 1st place if he knew how people will be? that is something that isnt answered as simple as you think. the best way is to find out yourself. i cant help you further as it is different when i try to "make your mind" and when you do your own research and get conclusions on your own.
i know you are not gay. infact, you "hate" men and i know that. so i let you chose who do you wanna sleep with, Monica Bellucci when she was still young or Carlo Tavecchio. so, i know in advance who you would chose but i still give you the chance to chose by yourself. does that take away the free will from you? no. its as simple as that.
the second part im gonna answer with a verse in the Quran, Surah Baqara, 30th verse:
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
see how the angels noticed long before that there will be blood on Earth. could God create us like angels and make us mistakeless? yes. why didnt He do it? because He had something else in mind for us. we are the best of His creations and his representatives here and we were put on Earth as a great test. so why did He create us in the 1st place if he knew how people will be? that is something that isnt answered as simple as you think. the best way is to find out yourself. i cant help you further as it is different when i try to "make your mind" and when you do your own research and get conclusions on your own.
Agree on the rest, although I wouldn't say that believing in God is a choice really. Even if I chose to believe in God right now, I couldn't accomplish it. In general it is very hard to choose to believe anything. Belief, whether in religous or or other context, is not something one can control using his will.
I'm gonna let the first part be a draw because I was high as fuck and it is pretty much impossible to debate on free will.
But I'm going to keep on using simple logic for the second part. The Quran was written by people and even people back then saw natural disasters happen to them so of course they were gonna include it in their books to indoctrinate the masses.
Noticed how I included "And the countless weaknesses of religious arguments, explanations, and apologetics...?" in my post? I predicted you would use a sacred book as your argument
I must be God.
Sacred books and authorities are mistaken much of the time. Instinct and intuition play an important part in human understanding and experience but they should never be treated as the final word on a subject. I mean, if I told you "The tree in front of my house is 500 feet tall with hot pink leaves," and I offered as a defense "I know this is true because my mother/ preacher/ sacred book tells me so" or "I know this is true because I feel it in my heart"... would you take me seriously? I don't mean to offend anyone btw
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Care to elaborate?
But I'm going to keep on using simple logic for the second part. The Quran was written by people and even people back then saw natural disasters happen to them so of course they were gonna include it in their books to indoctrinate the masses.
Noticed how I included "And the countless weaknesses of religious arguments, explanations, and apologetics...?" in my post? I predicted you would use a sacred book as your argument
I must be God.Sacred books and authorities are mistaken much of the time. Instinct and intuition play an important part in human understanding and experience but they should never be treated as the final word on a subject. I mean, if I told you "The tree in front of my house is 500 feet tall with hot pink leaves," and I offered as a defense "I know this is true because my mother/ preacher/ sacred book tells me so" or "I know this is true because I feel it in my heart"... would you take me seriously? I don't mean to offend anyone btw
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Care to elaborate?
What's there to elaborate? Belief needs you to dumb down? That's one dumbed down statement. And statements like mortal enemy is knowledge is dumbed down too.
Second point it seems it's more or less what you are thinking right now about your situation about religion or any other belief in general and not what is actually the experience of many "believers". Saying that they believe in something just because they were told to by someone is so wrong. Just ask anyone here who believes and doesn't matter their religion or faith most likely 99% will say they believe not because some bearded dude in church or wherever told them to. That's stupid thing to say. But does it matter? It won't change your mind even if they recorded and sent you a video each saying this. At least for now.
Btw, I'm certainly not a religious person.
Second point it seems it's more or less what you are thinking right now about your situation about religion or any other belief in general and not what is actually the experience of many "believers". Saying that they believe in something just because they were told to by someone is so wrong. Just ask anyone here who believes and doesn't matter their religion or faith most likely 99% will say they believe not because some bearded dude in church or wherever told them to. That's stupid thing to say. But does it matter? It won't change your mind even if they recorded and sent you a video each saying this. At least for now.
Btw, I'm certainly not a religious person.
I'm gonna let the first part be a draw because I was high as $#@! and it is pretty much impossible to debate on free will.
But I'm going to keep on using simple logic for the second part. The Quran was written by people and even people back then saw natural disasters happen to them so of course they were gonna include it in their books to indoctrinate the masses.
Noticed how I included "And the countless weaknesses of religious arguments, explanations, and apologetics...?" in my post? I predicted you would use a sacred book as your argument I must be God.
Sacred books and authorities are mistaken much of the time. Instinct and intuition play an important part in human understanding and experience but they should never be treated as the final word on a subject. I mean, if I told you "The tree in front of my house is 500 feet tall with hot pink leaves," and I offered as a defense "I know this is true because my mother/ preacher/ sacred book tells me so" or "I know this is true because I feel it in my heart"... would you take me seriously? I don't mean to offend anyone btw
But I'm going to keep on using simple logic for the second part. The Quran was written by people and even people back then saw natural disasters happen to them so of course they were gonna include it in their books to indoctrinate the masses.
Noticed how I included "And the countless weaknesses of religious arguments, explanations, and apologetics...?" in my post? I predicted you would use a sacred book as your argument
I must be God.Sacred books and authorities are mistaken much of the time. Instinct and intuition play an important part in human understanding and experience but they should never be treated as the final word on a subject. I mean, if I told you "The tree in front of my house is 500 feet tall with hot pink leaves," and I offered as a defense "I know this is true because my mother/ preacher/ sacred book tells me so" or "I know this is true because I feel it in my heart"... would you take me seriously? I don't mean to offend anyone btw
now that you have presented your "proofs" or "logical arguments" (whatever you wanna call it) i shall try to explain to you why i believe in God and see what do you think about it. im gonna use the Quran since i believe thats the best way to prove you wrong in 2 ways: a) that God doesent exist and b) that the Quran was written by people for whatever motives you think they had.
but 1st a few words about Mohammed (pbuh) since it is he whom the Quran was sent down to. (im gonna focus on things i think are impiortant here, you can simply google his name if you wanna know more about him). Mohammed (pbuh) was an illiterate, which means he couldnt write or read. he was called al-Amin by his people (the same people that later tried to kill him, because they didnt want to throw away the beliefs their parents taought them and Islam came with something now, telling people that knowledge is also important and part of religion. so much to your "dumb down" argument.) which means "the trustworthy one" in english. this is important info so you can realise what kind of guy our Prophet is and what kind of words did he come to his people.
now about the Quran. it is a book full of evidences that it is the word of God. you only have to read it and understand some things. how about some examples?
1. Read! In the name of your Lord who created,
2. Created man from Alaq.
3. Read! And your Lord is the most bountiful,
4. Who has taught by the pen,
5. Taught man that which he knew not.
The word "Alaq" besides meaning a congealed clot of blood also means something which clings, a leech-like substance.
a profesor named Keith Leon Moore explored this (and other embryologic facts in the Quran) after he visited Saudi Arabia and confirmed the truth of it. you can ask Zach or anyone else who has knowledge about embryology to explain you the early stages of the embryo.
so, how did an illiterate man 1400 years ago get an information like this. how would any man get information like this in such a time (i believe youre aware what was the level of knowledge in Arabia and the rest of the world at that time). still want more proof? here we go.
"He has let free (MARAJA) the two sees meeting together. Between them is a barrier that they do not transgress. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (Jinn and men) deny? Out of them both come out pearls and carol.” Surah Rahman 19-22
Scientists only recently discovered that there is a barrier between the Mediterian Sea and Atlantic Ocean. their water touches each other, but they do not mix. each has its own saltinity, temperature etc. do i have to ask again how did Mohammed (pbuh) know this fact 1400 years ago. still want more proof?
"Elif, Lam, Mim. The Romans have been defeated in the lowest land, but after their defeat they will themselves be victorious in a few years' time. The affair is God's from beginning to end." Surah Rumm 1-4
this was revealed in the Quran after Byzantium has conceded a great defeat against Persia. they suffered so much loses that no-one have thought they can recover from it yet alone defeat the Persians themselves shortly after. the prediction from the Quran was shown to be correct as the Persians have indeed suffered a loss. another interesting thing is where Byzantium have conceded that loss in the 1st place. in the "lowest land" (some translations say nearby land but this one is more accurate) which is around the Dead sea.
i think i presented enough. if you want more i can write a wall of text about this and more proofs presented in the Quran which people until the 20th century had no clue about.
Absolutely agree well said. There is no "conclusive" or "Clear cut" evidence either way. There are strong arguments both ways and that's why it's up to you to choose. That is why, ultimately, religions name belief, "belief". It just makes the whole "Science vs. Religion" argument so empty. The New Atheist movement of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc, are even despised by intellectual atheist philosophers due to their, simply put, lack of intelligence. They are unable to take them seriously.
Kudos on your returning to belief in God.
Kudos on your returning to belief in God.
