Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (16 Viewers)

[Quetzalcoatl]

Discuss:

 

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[Sheik Yerbouti]

How do we determine what's in gods' divine plan? Also, which god?

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

For the sake of discussion, AndreaCristiano's god.

 

[acmilan]

How do we determine what's in gods' divine plan? Also, which god?

take your pick

whatever your choice, it would be as good a way as any

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Without a proper means of verification, prayer is meaningless anyway.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Discuss:

Are none of the religious posters going to respond to that? Especially Muslims who do it 5 times a day.

I can think of one counter.

Not all prays are to interfere with 'gods plan' - We used to pray for thanks, praise and getting us into heaven back when i was taken to church.

 

[LowLife]

Are none of the religious posters going to respond to that? Especially Muslims who do it 5 times a day.

I can think of one counter.

Not all prays are to interfere with 'gods plan' - We used to pray for thanks, praise and getting us into heaven back when i was taken to church.

Get a life man!

 

[Lapa]

Change your username you stupid fuck.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Once again the derailing of this thread by going into the minutia of religion, when the original question had nothing to do with any of this. Seems like the disbelievers can never satisfy their attacks so they continuously attack on stuff that isnt pertinent to the original question.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Get a life man!

I defended a religious behavior and I'm getting shit for it?

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Discuss:

Prayer doesn't work that way. A prayer is a petition to God and God answers the prayers in line with his plan, we may not comprehend or receive everything in the way we perceive we ask for it, but we also see a limited view of our lives, etc, while God sees in the infinite now and knows all outcomes

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Once again the derailing of this thread by going into the minutia of religion, when the original question had nothing to do with any of this. Seems like the disbelievers can never satisfy their attacks so they continuously attack on stuff that isnt pertinent to the original question.

If you hadn't noticed, this thread sort of became the 'General religious discussions thread' a long time ago. Unless you wanna create such a thread, this thread will continue to have discussions NOT directly related to god's existence.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

If you hadn't noticed, this thread sort of became the 'General religious discussions thread' a long time ago. Unless you wanna create such a thread, this thread will continue to have discussions NOT directly related to god's existence.

thats neither here nor there and you know it. The original question was did God create man or man create God and you have taken it into every single dogmatic direction when the question was non dogmatic.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Prayer doesn't work that way. A prayer is a petition to God and God answers the prayers in line with his plan, we may not comprehend or receive everything in the way we perceive we ask for it, but we also see a limited view of our lives, etc, while God sees in the infinite now and knows all outcomes

You're not doing a very good job of refuting what that image claims.

thats neither here nor there and you know it. The original question was did God create man or man create God and you have taken it into every single dogmatic direction when the question was non dogmatic.

Cos that's what happens when we investigate claims. We take the dogmatic claims and try to determine whether it's more likely that a man made such things or god did. You already admitted that there is no empirical evidence for god. So we gotta look at minute details because that's all there is.

 

[Ford Prefect]

thats neither here nor there and you know it. The original question was did God create man or man create God and you have taken it into every single dogmatic direction when the question was non dogmatic.

No; that is the point, and given that you joined the forum 3 years after this thread was made I don't see how you can dictate what discussions happen in here. Its been a general discussion thread since i joined here a year after it started.

Don't try and evade an issue by being a pedant on a non-existent issue.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Besides, the original question was always 'Does god exist?'. I have no idea who put up that poll.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

You're not doing a very good job of refuting what that image claims.



Cos that's what happens when we investigate claims. We take the dogmatic claims and try to determine whether it's more likely that a man made such things or god did. You already admitted that there is no empirical evidence for god. So we gotta look at minute details because that's all there is.

how so? The image shows that prayer is worthless in one way or another. Prayer isn't worthless it is both communal conversation with the creator and petitions to him. The answers may not always come as we believe we need them but in the end he knows what we truly believe. It's like a child who repeatedly asks a father for a BB Gun and the father says no because he isnt old enough. The child believes himself to be ready and petitions for the BB gun yet the father sees at this point in life it is not yet time to grant him that.

---------- Post added 24.06.2012 at 10:57 ----------

Besides, the original question was always 'Does god exist?'. I have no idea who put up that poll.

even if thats the case that has no dogmatic connotations to it

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

how so? The image shows that prayer is worthless in one way or another. Prayer isn't worthless it is both communal conversation with the creator and petitions to him. The answers may not always come as we believe we need them but in the end he knows what we truly believe. It's like a child who repeatedly asks a father for a BB Gun and the father says no because he isnt old enough. The child believes himself to be ready and petitions for the BB gun yet the father sees at this point in life it is not yet time to grant him that.

You said that "God answers the prayers in line with his plan", which is precisely what the image claims. If what you pray for is in line with his divine plan, then he's gonna grant it anyway because it's part of this plan, thus making prayer redundant. On the other hand, if what you pray for is not in his plan, then he don't grant it no matter what, thus making it futile.

Unless you prove to us that your god alters his divine plan to accommodate our "petitions" through prayer, then anything you say about the matter is still supporting what the image claims.

even if thats the case that has no dogmatic connotations to it

Claims about gods arise from religious texts, which is filled with dogma. You may be able to separate the two in practice. But when it comes to investigating the claims, the two are inseparable.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

You said that "God answers the prayers in line with his plan", which is precisely what the image claims. If what you pray for is in line with his divine plan, then he's gonna grant it anyway because it's part of this plan, thus making prayer redundant. On the other hand, if what you pray for is not in his plan, then he don't grant it no matter what, thus making it futile.

Unless you prove to us that your god alters his divine plan to accommodate our "petitions" through prayer, then anything you say about the matter is still supporting what the image claims.



Claims about gods arise from religious texts, which is filled with dogma. You may be able to separate the two in practice. But when it comes to investigating the claims, the two are inseparable.

the problem is you believe God's plan is down to the very minutia of life and thats not true. his plan is like a path and we can either stay on it or divert from it do to free will, the prayers are like GPS they keep us in sync with the satellite per se to keep us along the path

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

the problem is you believe God's plan is down to the very minutia of life and thats not true. his plan is like a path and we can either stay on it or divert from it do to free will, the prayers are like GPS they keep us in sync with the satellite per se to keep us along the path

So you're saying that gods' plan is NOT planned down to the minute details? Doesn't seem like the kind of a plan an all-knowing deity would make.