Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (33 Viewers)

Well, did...

  • Man make God?

  • God make Man?


Results are only viewable after voting.

AndreaCristiano

Nato, Vive, e muore Italiano
Jun 9, 2011
19,125
goodnight and God Bless:klin:

---------- Post added 07.03.2012 at 22:55 ----------

Maybe Andrea doesn't know the universal definition of 'miracle'. Looking it up would end this feud.
i know it lol thats why I said maybe my definition is different than others, then he tried to make it as if that maybe meant that i wasnt sure of my beliefs which wasnt what we were talking about
 

Buy on AliExpress.com
Oct 4, 2011
1,409
no your just twisting my words. You asked me one thing then used my answer to imply something else, maybe you could e honest in your motives
Go back through our convo, as a believer your answers should be in black and white. You ducked my initial question and changed track, i just followed you.
i get you believe in god n religion but you built up a lot of shit around it, like ACTUAL miracles n stuff
you try too hard to be special

---------- Post added 08.03.2012 at 05:05 ----------

goodnight and God Bless:klin:

---------- Post added 07.03.2012 at 22:55 ----------



i know it lol thats why I said maybe my definition is different than others
If you know the definition then why did you say 'may be its different'. Either it is different or it isnt.
 

AndreaCristiano

Nato, Vive, e muore Italiano
Jun 9, 2011
19,125
Go back through our convo, as a believer your answers should be in black and white. You ducked my initial question and changed track, i just followed you.
i get you believe in god n religion but you built up a lot of shit around it, like ACTUAL miracles n stuff
you try too hard to be special

well religion is another thing entirely I defend religion because like science its mans way of understanding divinity but my Christianity is of Christ not of Church, plus its hard being me in these threads for the most part its me against 5 or 6 people and my train of thought gets a bit jumbled lol
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
It doesn't apply to me because I'm not reading and interpreting from a holy book that I've accepted to be ultimate truth.

And I'm not answering your question till you answer mine. How can you be certain that those words describe our evolution alone and not something else, considering its vague nature?
Well, I don't understand what you said.

I never said it was vague, I said that we're understanding it more day by day. No one gets spoon fed all the answers. You think for God to be real everything he wants of us must fall on our laps. Like food, water, knowledge, success, etc. is just given to you.

he appeared to them in the lower room and then again when thomas didnt believe. Thomas saying he didnt believe his brethren and wouldnt until he put his hand in his side and finger in his hands which he did when Yeshua appeared, there are many apparitions of Yeshua and one even of 500+ people at the same time. Saul saw Jesus much later and far away, he saw Yeshua and become a believer and promoter of something he hated

---------- Post added 07.03.2012 at 22:14 ----------



then don't or maybe look for answers yourself for once ;)

---------- Post added 07.03.2012 at 22:16 ----------



ps he was DEAD a roman crucifixion would never allow a man to be released into custody without being dead, hence the spear piercing his side to burst the paracardial sack around the heart
Have a read and tell me what you think:

We also observe from the Bible that when his body was taken down his legs were not broken. Whereas the legs of the two thieves, hanging along with him, were broken to make sure that they died.5 This act of sparing Jesus would certainly have helped his revival from the coma. It cannot be ruled out altogether that the sentries had been instructed by some emissaries of Pilate, not to break the legs of Jesus Christ. Perhaps as a mark of respect for him and the innocent Christian community.

Again according to the Bible, when his side was pierced blood and water gushed out.

But when they came to Jesus and found him already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. (John 19:33,34)

If he was dead and his heart had stopped beating, such active bleeding as causing the blood to rush out or gush out would be impossible. At most coagulated blood and plasma could have passively seeped out. But that is not the picture which the New Testament presents, it says that blood and water rushed out. As far as the mention of water is concerned it should not be surprising for Jesus to have developed pleurisy during the extremely exacting and punishing hours of trial that he spent upon the cross. Also, the stress of the Crucifixion could have resulted in exudates from the pleura to collect likes bags of water, which is medically termed as wet pleurisy. This condition, which is otherwise dangerous and painful, seems to have turned into an advantage for Jesus because when his side was pierced the swollen pleura could easily have played the role of a cushion protecting the chest organs from being directly penetrated by the spear. Water mixed with blood rushed out because of an active heart.

-http://www.alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_4.html
 

AndreaCristiano

Nato, Vive, e muore Italiano
Jun 9, 2011
19,125
Well, I don't understand what you said.

I never said it was vague, I said that we're understanding it more day by day. No one gets spoon fed all the answers. You think for God to be real everything he wants of us must fall on our laps. Like food, water, knowledge, success, etc. is just given to you.



Have a read and tell me what you think:

We also observe from the Bible that when his body was taken down his legs were not broken. Whereas the legs of the two thieves, hanging along with him, were broken to make sure that they died.5 This act of sparing Jesus would certainly have helped his revival from the coma. It cannot be ruled out altogether that the sentries had been instructed by some emissaries of Pilate, not to break the legs of Jesus Christ. Perhaps as a mark of respect for him and the innocent Christian community.

Again according to the Bible, when his side was pierced blood and water gushed out.

But when they came to Jesus and found him already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. (John 19:33,34)

If he was dead and his heart had stopped beating, such active bleeding as causing the blood to rush out or gush out would be impossible. At most coagulated blood and plasma could have passively seeped out. But that is not the picture which the New Testament presents, it says that blood and water rushed out. As far as the mention of water is concerned it should not be surprising for Jesus to have developed pleurisy during the extremely exacting and punishing hours of trial that he spent upon the cross. Also, the stress of the Crucifixion could have resulted in exudates from the pleura to collect likes bags of water, which is medically termed as wet pleurisy. This condition, which is otherwise dangerous and painful, seems to have turned into an advantage for Jesus because when his side was pierced the swollen pleura could easily have played the role of a cushion protecting the chest organs from being directly penetrated by the spear. Water mixed with blood rushed out because of an active heart.

-http://www.alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_4.html
http://the-crucifixion.org/death.htm
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
"However, the important feature may be not how he died but rather whether he died. Clearly, the weight of historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead before the wound to his side was inflicted and supports the traditional view that the spear, thrust between his right ribs, probably perforated not only the right lung but also the pericardium and heart and thereby ensured his death (Fig 7). Accordingly, interpretations based on the assumption that Jesus did not die on the cross appear to be at odds with modern medical knowledge."



The part in bold: So modern medical knowledge tells us that Jesus died on the cross yet it somehow leaves the possibility for that dead person to come back to life thousands of years later? You see how this whole article holds no weight when you leave a possibility for something so bizarre?

What I mean is, there's no point in scientifically explaining Jesus' crucifixion, when you as a doctor of medicine, on one hand want people to understand from a scientific point of view about how Jesus died on the cross but at the same time accept that he may come back to life! Because modern medicine will tell you otherwise.

About whether/if he died:

"According to the Biblical account, after the body was handed over to Joseph of Arimathea, it was immediately removed to a secret place of burial, a sepulchre with enough room not only for Jesus but also for two of his attendants to sit and take care of him.

Then the disciples went back to their homes, but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent down over to look into the tomb and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been. (John 20:10–12)

That is not all, we are informed in the New Testament that an ointment, which had been prepared in advance was applied to Jesus’ wounds.6 This ointment, prepared by the disciples of Jesus, contained ingredients which have properties of healing wounds and subduing pain etc. Why was there all this fuss about going through the laborious exercise of collecting twelve rare ingredients to prepare an ointment at all? The prescription used is recorded in many classical books such as the famous medical textbook Al-Qanun by Bu Ali Sina (see appendix for a list of such books). So what was the need of applying ointment to a dead body? This could only make sense if the disciples had strong reasons to believe that Jesus would be delivered alive from the cross and not dead. St. John is the only apostle who has ventured to offer an explanation justifying the act of preparing and applying an ointment to Jesus’ body. This further supports the fact that the act of applying ointment to a dead body was considered extremely odd behaviour, inexplicable to those who believed that Jesus was dead when ointment was applied. It is for this reason why St. John had to offer an explanation. He suggests that it was done so merely because it was a Jewish practice to apply some sort of balm or ointment to the bodies of their dead. Now it is a very important fact to note that all modern scholars who have researched into this, are in agreement that St. John was not of Jewish origin, and he proved it by this statement of his. It is known for certain that Jews or the Children of Israel have never applied any ointments whatsoever to the bodies of their dead. As such the scholars contend that St. John must have been of non-Jewish origin otherwise he could not have been so ignorant of Jewish customs. So there has to be another reason for this.

The ointment was applied to save Jesus from near death. The only explanation lies in the fact that Jesus was neither expected to die by his disciples nor did he actually die upon the cross. The body which was taken down must have shown positive signs of life before the application of the ointment, otherwise, it turns out to be an extremely stupid, unwarranted and futile exercise on the part of those who indulged in it. It is unlikely that those who had prepared this ointment in advance had done so without a very strong indication that Jesus would not die upon the cross but would be taken down alive seriously wounded, very much in need of a powerful healing agent."

Same source as before.
 
Apr 15, 2006
56,640
Well, I don't understand what you said.

I never said it was vague, I said that we're understanding it more day by day. No one gets spoon fed all the answers. You think for God to be real everything he wants of us must fall on our laps. Like food, water, knowledge, success, etc. is just given to you.
I didn't need you to tell me it's vague. Giving that page one read through is enough to learn that its explanations are not clear.

Look, if god took the pain to send an archangel down to earth so that mankind can learn of him and what he desires, the least he could do is to ensure that something as important as the creation of the universe and everything in it is explained exactly how it happened. I hope we can all agree that there is only one way that this universe and everything in it came into existence, one explanation that leaves no stone unturned, no doubts left. Surely a god who's supposedly did this should have no problems explaining it in detain to the extent that the unbeliever will be fully convinced that Allah is the one true god.

My question is, what kind of a god is he that cannot realize the importance of something as important as clarity in communication? Especially, clarity in explaining something that he had complete control of? I'm sure you'll agree that instead of using elaborate words which can hold multiple meanings, drawings and illustrations would be a much more efficient way of showing his wisdom and knowledge, right? Think of the impact that a drawing of a dinosaur, a blood cell, a mitochondria or of DNA can have on the minds of the unbeliever? Illustrating something that couldn't possibly have been seen with the naked eye, but only with technology available to mankind thousands of years in the future, would be eye-opening to the staunchest of unbelievers. I see this as a MASSIVE missed opportunity by god to demonstrate his knowledge and make us believe in him. And I stress that this is not too much to ask from the creator who claims to knows how it all happened and who took the time and effort to tell a few lucky people on earth how it happened. It's like expecting a software developer to write a user manual that fully explains how his software works. It makes no sense if he would simply tell us that we'll learn more about the software as an when we use it. The only way it would make sense would be if he doesn't know enough about the software that HE created. Or worse, he never created the software at all, and is simply taking credit for something he never had a hand in creating.

I'm sure you'll come up with an explanation for why god possibly didn't do all of that, or how I'm expecting too much from god and want everything to be spoonfed to me. It doesn't change the fact that god could've chosen much more efficient ways, and me massively failed at that. And since this is not gonna change anytime soon or during my lifetime, I shall forever stay an unbeliever.
 
Apr 15, 2006
56,640
However, him simply being able to do something is not good enough of an explanation.
I completely agree. Might I also add that him simply claiming to do something is not good enough of an "explanation".

Good question. You're referring to Night Journey I believe. I don't believe that this physically took place. More like a dream or a vision; strictly spiritual.
:lol: It's funny you say this, because I was watching a documentary about Jerusalem and the Dome of the Rock, and a guy in it says that many people believe it really happened. That and also the journey from Mecca to Jerusalem on a donkey with wings, IIRC. Normally, that journey would take 40 days, but how he did it almost instantaneously through the power of god is something they believe in. I'm sure not all of what I said here is correct, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
a7med,
Ahmed,
Albo,
AndreaCristiano,
ArjunPradeep,
Avalanche,
BetoBianconero,
delrey,
Dr Bisco,
Dule90,
Fr3sh,
Golazo,
Hambon,
IliveForJuve,
Interdestroyer,
jussr,
Juve Fanatico,
K.O.,
Linebreak,
LoKu,
LowLife,
Melo,
Mohad,
Mohamad Anwar,
Naggar,
pitbull,
Powis,
Raz,
YasoR17,
Zé Tahir
Had more respect for some of those posters than that - am I missing the point or is that a question about evolution?
You just made me notice i didn't vote in this poll. You can add my name to that list.
 

Juve matador

Junior Member
Feb 26, 2012
463
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17275842

Muslim and Jewish groups have reacted with dismay after French PM Francois Fillon suggested the religious slaughter of animals was out of date.

Bloody gimps, these fools even cut their own foreskin off, for some stupid reason, even though 'god' obviously gave them it.

I feel sorry for anyone who got their foreskin cut off, its a fucking disgrace.






Fuck religion, its barbaric and out dated.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 33)