Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (38 Viewers)

[Raz]

Infarcted, nice word

I can get that, trying to challenge your own beliefs, I do that a lot too in rl.

Do you think that for something to be true it has to have empirical evidence and without it it cannot exist and does not exist at all? Does theoretical(mathematical) evidence is enough?

 

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[Sheik Yerbouti]

Infarcted, nice word

I can get that, trying to challenge your own beliefs, I do that a lot too in rl.

Do you think that for something to be true it has to have evidence and without it it cannot exist and does not exist?

I meant 'unaffected'.

I do believe that if something exists, the it will manifest itself in a way that will be detectable by us. If something exists, then we should be able to either see it, hear it, touch it or be able to observe its effects on nature. If none of these is possible, then i see no reason why i should believe in it.

 

[Raz]

I think you are using the word belief wrong, since it implies to think something is like that without evidence. Don't you think there is more than meets the eye and beyond our understanding? Even in regular day life situations you can see that this is true, because most of the time it is always something more than it seems.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I think you are using the word belief wrong, since it implies to think something is like that without evidence. Don't you think there is more than meets the eye and beyond our understanding? Even in regular day life situations you can see that this is true, because most of the time it is always something more than it seems.

There maybe, yes. But why do you feel the need to attributing the feeling of 'something more than it seems' to god(regardless of whether it is your god or my god)? Why not just deem it as coincidence? What justification do you have that it is god?

 

[Raz]

I can't explain that actually, don't know how

While backpacking through spain I had this experience that at that moment I suddenly knew there was a god(not muhamed or jesus, just god). The problem is now I don't have that feeling anymore it's not something constant and when I don't have it I have doubts and can't embrace it on blind faith that's just how I am. But I know that there is something there and I have little evidence by everyday simple things that show me this just on a very small scale too and for me too small to do that leap of faith for me.

I really can't express myself more on this, don't know how, I just feel that there is something more.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I think you are using the word belief wrong, since it implies to think something is like that without evidence.

Not exactly sure what you mean here. Your belief can be based on 2 things: evidence or faith. And by faith, I mean faith in your son, parents, a friend, politician, etc. Reasonable expectations based on prior observable achievements. I don't think that blind faith, as the one demanded by religion, is a good basis to believe in something. In our society, what we believe in based on evidence. I just don't see why god and religion needs to be an exception.

 

[Raz]

Then its expectation not faith. You can expect them to do something on their past actions. But belief/faith is embracing something you can't get your hands around, at least that is how I understand the word belief.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I can't explain that actually, don't know how

While backpacking through spain I had this experience that at that moment I suddenly knew there was a god(not muhamed or jesus, just god). The problem is now I don't have that feeling anymore it's not something constant and when I don't have it I have doubts and can't embrace it on blind faith that's just how I am. But I know that there is something there and I have little evidence by everyday simple things that show me this just on a very small scale too and for me too small to do that leap of faith for me.

I really can't express myself more on this, don't know how, I just feel that there is something more.

I don't know under what circumstances you had that feeling. So I cannot really judge you. But I urge you to not interpret these unexplainable feelings as god.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Then its expectation not faith. You can expect them to do something on their past actions. But belief/faith is embracing something you can't get your hands around, at least that is how I understand the word belief.

I think you are the one who's misunderstood the term 'belief'. By definition, belief is 'the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true'. But I think you simply cannot deem something to be true without having evidence for it. Having some basis to support the assertion that something is true. What you explained in the bolded part is faith, NOT belief.

 

[Raz]

I don't know under what circumstances you had that feeling. So I cannot really judge you. But I urge you to not interpret these unexplainable feelings as god.

Thanks for the urge but you without any evidence of what I have felt or any idea of situation I was in are trying to deny the evidence or expirience I have had. In this situation you can believe me or just ignore it, since I can't provide any evidence how I feel we know what option you will do

Though, I would suggest you listen to people too, not only to scientific theories, because after all we are humans who are creatures of feelings(at least that how I see us).

Anyway, as always it was good talking to you Sheik, I'm off to sleep early day tommorow, nn.

 

[Raz]

I think you are the one who's misunderstood the term 'belief'. By definition, belief is 'the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true'. But I think you simply cannot deem something to be true without having evidence for it. Having some basis to support the assertion that something is true. What you explained in the bolded part is faith, NOT belief.

Then It's my english that let me down, I always wanted to say faith then.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Thanks for the urge but you without any evidence of what I have felt or any idea of situation I was in are trying to deny the evidence or expirience I have had. In this situation you can believe me or just ignore it, since I can't provide any evidence how I feel we know what option you will do

Though, I would suggest you listen to people too, not only to scientific theories, because after all we are humans who are creatures of feelings(at least that how I see us).

Anyway, as always it was good talking to you Sheik, I'm off to sleep early day tommorow, nn.

Oh i agree. You could tell me that you had a sandwich this morning, and normally I would not ask you to prove it. That's because that statement has no bearing on my life or my actions. But if you tell me that a god spoke to you and asked all mankind to worship him, then i bloody well will ask for more evidence to actually believe your anecdote. I will certainly not take it for granted, and that's what I'm doing with the concept of god.

Good night mate. May your brain treat you with a wonderful dream!

 

[Linebreak]

Nope, he's just a moron.

And you are intelligence personified. We all wish we could be like you: Three-quarters!

 

[Linebreak]

Religion also encourages bad behaviour:
* The need to "conquer the world" because everyone should believe in "my" preferred God. My religion is better than yours etc. Often even a general intolerance towards people who have (chosen) a different religion or non believers.
* Child abuse in the Catholic Church: only recently have (most of) the abusers started admitting that it is wrong, partly because of public pressure. It used to be A-ok, because, you know, they loved the children so much.
* Inequality even within the same religion. Not only because of gender, but also rank, status, etc.
* ...


And to counter the next argument: whether or not these examples are (due to) what religion was meant for in the 1st place doesn't even matter. They're there, for better or for worse. But you can't just choose the good stuff & choose to ignore that bad things.



Also, since you were the one who came up with the Mt Rushmore thing. Could you explain what this has to with anything? Just curious.

1- Anything can be misued for bad behaviour, but religion in general, all religious teachings, not necessarily always the behaviour of its adherents, encourage good behaviour. Just because a scientist may create a nuclear bomb that kills millions, it doesn't mean science = bad.

2- Say I turned up in the USA, not knowing anything about Mt Rushmore and I visit the area. The Tour Guide tells me "You know, those faces were created by years and years, millions of years of erosion, and it just so happened to form the faces of four future US presidents, it's truly a miracle of nature". Would I not look at this guy and think he's crazy?

 

[Linebreak]

Oh i agree. You could tell me that you had a sandwich this morning, and normally I would not ask you to prove it. That's because that statement has no bearing on my life or my actions. But if you tell me that a god spoke to you and asked all mankind to worship him, then i bloody well will ask for more evidence to actually believe your anecdote. I will certainly not take it for granted, and that's what I'm doing with the concept of god.

Good night mate. May your brain treat you with a wonderful dream!

Looking at your Tuz ID and your signature, you seem to be quite intimidated by religion for some reason?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Looking at your Tuz ID and your signature, you seem to be quite intimidated by religion for some reason?

Intimidated? No. Unconvinced? Yes.

As for my ID: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheik_Yerbouti

 

[Linebreak]

Intimidated? No. Unconvinced? Yes.

As for my ID: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheik_Yerbouti

If you weren't so intimidated you wouldn't use those things. Refer to psychology.

 

[Ford Prefect]

And you are intelligence personified. We all wish we could be like you: Three-quarters!

Ahem, you post on an italian football team support forum and you don't know what a trequarista is?

I like to pretend you are an athiest and you just post this stupid shit to play devil advocate, it makes me hate you less.

 

[Linebreak]

Ahem, you post on an italian football team support forum and you don't know what a trequarista is?

I like to pretend you are an athiest and you just post this stupid shit to play devil advocate, it makes me hate you less.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I don't know what you're talking about. My signature is meant to ridicule.