Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (25 Viewers)

[AndreaCristiano]

I didn't say that.

How is it similar to Rome before the fall of the Western Roman Empire?

I mentioned it above add to that spent more money then there is and the system both, fiscally, morally and mentally is about to collapse, maybe the mayans were talking about a new dark age in 2012 the end of the world..as we know it

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Trequartista]

The Roman Empire(its western half in the 5th century, its eastern half in the 15th century) mainly fell because of civil strife, inflation and outdated institutions. I don't get where you're trying to get at with this analogy, the Romans weren't less or more moral in the later empire (3/4/5th centuries) than during the golden years (1st century BCE-2nd century CE), it's just that the system of golden years was more efficient and had not yet been outdated. Actually, most causes of the fall of the Danube and Rhine borders, which led to the migration of the Germanic tribes who gradually took over the declining Roman provincial governments can be attributed to events that took place in the 4th century CE, when the empire was under Christianity(with a heavy decline in gladiatorial fights) as civil wars left the borders undefended. The view that the empire fell because of it's amorality is as ridiculous as the claim that it fell because of Christianity.

On 2012, the Mayan calendar merely ends, it doesn't imply that the world will end. Anyways, I don't believe in these matters (2012 doomsday prophecies).

 

[AndreaCristiano]

The Roman Empire(its western half in the 5th century, its eastern half in the 15th century) mainly fell because of civil strife, inflation and outdated institutions. I don't get where you're trying to get at with this analogy, the Romans weren't less or more moral in the later empire (3/4/5th centuries) than during the golden years (1st century BCE-2nd century CE), it's just that the system of golden years was more efficient and had not yet been outdated. Actually, most causes of the fall of the Danube and Rhine borders, which led to the immigration of the Germanic tribes who gradually took over the declining Roman provincial governments can be attributed to events that took place in the 4th century CE, when the empire was under Christianity(with a heavy decline in gladiatorial fights) as civil wars left the borders undefended. The view that the empire fell because of it's amorality is as ridiculous as the claim that it fell because of Christianity.

On 2012, the Mayan calendar merely ends, it doesn't imply that the world will end. Anyways, I don't believe in these matters (2012 doomsday prophecies).

I will continue this discussion another time, I am going out with my lovely lady now. It is always fun Trequartista

 

[X Æ A-12]

I mentioned it above add to that spent more money then there is and the system both, fiscally, morally and mentally is about to collapse, maybe the mayans were talking about a new dark age in 2012 the end of the world..as we know it

You believe in that too?

 

[Trequartista]

You believe in that too?

I'd like to know that too

 

[Nzoric]

The Roman Empire(its western half in the 5th century, its eastern half in the 15th century) mainly fell because of civil strife, inflation and outdated institutions. I don't get where you're trying to get at with this analogy, the Romans weren't less or more moral in the later empire (3/4/5th centuries) than during the golden years (1st century BCE-2nd century CE), it's just that the system of golden years was more efficient and had not yet been outdated. Actually, most causes of the fall of the Danube and Rhine borders, which led to the migration of the Germanic tribes who gradually took over the declining Roman provincial governments can be attributed to events that took place in the 4th century CE, when the empire was under Christianity(with a heavy decline in gladiatorial fights) as civil wars left the borders undefended. The view that the empire fell because of it's amorality is as ridiculous as the claim that it fell because of Christianity.

On 2012, the Mayan calendar merely ends, it doesn't imply that the world will end. Anyways, I don't believe in these matters (2012 doomsday prophecies).

I think he's referring to the moral decay which lead to gods wrath ultimately destroying those empires. In the Christian way of thinking this stems from the rule of emperor Justinian, the Hagia Sophia dome collapsing, the long wall collapsing because of earthquakes and the plague which hit Constantinople in 542.
A society and ruler in moral decay = gods wrath. The "doomsday is near, just look at our society and the values within it" argument is used a lot by theists, especially those with a linear perception of time (Christianity & Islam)

 

[AndreaCristiano]

You believe in that too?

no i don't i was just discussing the time frame, I think the myans just stopped at that point and then died out as a civilization before they could continue

 

[Trequartista]

I think he's referring to the moral decay which lead to gods wrath ultimately destroying those empires. In the Christian way of thinking this stems from the rule of emperor Justinian, the Hagia Sophia dome collapsing, the long wall collapsing because of earthquakes and the plague which hit Constantinople in 542.
A society and ruler in moral decay = gods wrath. The "doomsday is near, just look at our society and the values within it" argument is used a lot by theists, especially those with a linear perception of time (Christianity & Islam)

Well, Hagia Sophia's dome collapsed because it was not supported well enough to withstand earthquakes, which are quite frequent in the region. It was rebuild by Isidore the Younger who built it with lighter materials in order for it not to collapse. They may well interpret that as a divine sign but we can explain it nowadays with seismology(the earthquakes) and engineering(the church's dome being too heavy). As for the plague, we have biological explanations.

That theistic argument is particularly weak.

 

[Nzoric]

Well, Hagia Sophia's dome collapsed because it was not supported well enough to withstand earthquakes, which are quite frequent in the region. It was rebuild by Isidore the Younger who built it with lighter materials in order for it not to collapse. They may well interpret that as a divine sign but we can explain it with Seismology(the earthquakes) and engineering(the church's dome being too heavy).

I agree with your point here, just pointing out the tradition within Christianity to seek desperately after any sign of god.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Well, Hagia Sophia's dome collapsed because it was not supported well enough to withstand earthquakes, which are quite frequent in the region. It was rebuild by Isidore the Younger who built it with lighter materials in order for it not to collapse. They may well interpret that as a divine sign but we can explain it nowadays with seismology(the earthquakes) and engineering(the church's dome being too heavy). As for the plague, we have biological explanations.

That theistic argument is particularly weak.

well the theist believes that those things are allowed or set in motion by deity, God uses natural law not evades it

 

[Nzoric]

, just pointing out the tradition within Christianity to seek desperately after any sign of god.

well the theist believes that those things are allowed or set in motion by deity, God uses natural law not evades it

You heard it here first

 

[Ford Prefect]

The Babel fish is small, yellow, leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the universe. It feeds on brain wave energy, absorbing all unconscious frequencies and then excreting telepathically a matrix formed from the conscious frequencies and nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain, the practical upshot of which is that if you stick one in your ear, you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language: the speech you hear decodes the brain wave matrix. It is a universal translator which simultaneously translates from one spoken language to another. It takes the brainwaves of the other body and what they are thinking then transmits the thoughts to the speech centres of the host's brain, the speech heard by the ear decodes the brainwave matrix. When inserted into the ear, its nutrition processes convert unconscious sound waves into conscious brain waves, neatly crossing the language divide between any species.

The book points out that the Babel fish could not possibly have developed naturally, and therefore both proves and disproves the existence of God:

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could evolve purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing".
"But," says man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.

 

[Zé Tahir]

That concept is refuted by quantum mechanics.

The same Hawking you're referring to published a book last year(The Grand Design) on how quantum fluctuations may explain how our universe emerged from a pre-existing universe with the big bang.

Here's a quote form the book:

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.”

He might be right and he might be wrong. However, I think that it could be quite a valid explanation.

My post wasn't necessarily suggesting there has to be a God. I was just saying that everything does come from something (for the sake of argument everything post Big Bang); cause and effect if you will and that is what science is there for; to discover and understand them.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

The Babel fish is small, yellow, leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the universe. It feeds on brain wave energy, absorbing all unconscious frequencies and then excreting telepathically a matrix formed from the conscious frequencies and nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain, the practical upshot of which is that if you stick one in your ear, you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language: the speech you hear decodes the brain wave matrix. It is a universal translator which simultaneously translates from one spoken language to another. It takes the brainwaves of the other body and what they are thinking then transmits the thoughts to the speech centres of the host's brain, the speech heard by the ear decodes the brainwave matrix. When inserted into the ear, its nutrition processes convert unconscious sound waves into conscious brain waves, neatly crossing the language divide between any species.

The book points out that the Babel fish could not possibly have developed naturally, and therefore both proves and disproves the existence of God:

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could evolve purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing".
"But," says man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.

so it proves he exists yet doesn't ? what kind of idiotic logic is that

 

[Trequartista]

My post wasn't necessarily suggesting there has to be a God. I was just saying that everything does come from something (for the sake of argument everything post Big Bang); cause and effect if you will and that is what science is there for; to discover and understand them.

Fair enough.

Quantum fluctuations seem to be acausal at the moment. Well that's what I've read(Hawking).

 

[Trequartista]

Here's a video of Bertrand Russell talking about his essay Why I am not a Christian.

Great stuff, even if a bit outdated(Kalam cosmological argument has been refined by WLC since). It's a good listen.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Fair enough.

Quantum fluctuations seem to be acausal at the moment. Well that's what I've read(Hawking).

Is this the phenomena of particles and anti-particles that pop in and out existence? I think I remember seeing that in one of his documentaries.

 

[Trequartista]

Is this the phenomena of particles and anti-particles that pop in and out existence? I think I remember seeing that in one of his documentaries.

Yes. Our current understanding is that it is an acausal phenomenon.

Much still needs to be learned about quantum fluctuations though, it is a very complex and strange phenomenon.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

There is no God, only Zül!

 

[X Æ A-12]