Do you believe in miracles? (1 Viewer)

Do You Believe in Miracles?

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  • Plausible

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Jun 13, 2007
7,233
#1
Researchers from Baylor University’s Institute for Studies of Religion released these survey results in a standing-room-only press conference in Washington, D.C., on September 18.

The pool of 1,721 respondents from across the United States said they had been touched by the divine in other ways as well. More than half (55 percent) said they had personally been protected from harm by a guardian angel, and 20 percent reported hearing the voice of God speaking to them.

“Religious and mystical experiences are an overlooked aspect of our national religious life, neglected by researchers and ignored or even denied by leading theologians and seminary professors,” writes religion professor Rodney Stark in What Americans Really Believe, the book that analyzes the survey’s findings.

I took up Stark’s challenge and asked Christopher Bader, one of the researchers, to tell me a little bit about the people behind these statistics.

For one thing, Bader explained, more women than men (18 percent compared to 13 percent) report having had a miraculous healing, and nonwhites are more than twice as likely as whites to report the same. Education and income levels also enter into it: Basically, the more education you have, and the more money you earn, the less likely you are to report a miraculous healing.

That said, although half of those who say they have been miraculously healed had only an eighth-grade education, 1 in 10 had postgraduate degrees. In other words, belief in these experiences touches people from all walks of life.

Pentecostals and African-American Protestants were far more likely than other groups, such as mainline Protestants or Catholics or Jews, to say they have either witnessed or experienced a miraculous healing firsthand.

But I still had more questions. What do these experiences feel like? Are they dramatic transforming moments or a gradual feeling of recovery in spite of the odds? Does it usually happen in a religious setting, like a church or revival, or can it happen in a hospital under the care of doctors? And the $60,000 question: Can science prove that a miraculous healing has taken place?

Unfortunately, the Baylor survey—though broad in scope—didn’t touch on those topics.

But I did find one story, featured on the evangelical TV show The 700 Club, about Waid Kidd, a man who suffered from post-polio syndrome, a painful, incurable condition that left him debilitated. A churchgoing man, Kidd had been prayed over many times, according to the report, to no avail. Yet one Sunday, he felt “called” to have church members lay hands on him. “The power of the Lord starting pouring over me,” he said.

“As I can best describe it, it was a bucket of warm water, and it was slowly poured over the top of my head. It went down over me, except it didn’t just go down over me; I felt it go through me. It went all the way to my feet and went out of [my] heels. I realized the pain was gone.”

While I have never experienced such severe illness or such dramatic healing, I wonder if others who have had such experiences may be reluctant, for fear of ridicule, to share their stories. I hope this study and the interest in it will start the discussion about this “overlooked aspect” of religious life in America.


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Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#3
No, I don't. The human mind is capable of a lot more than people generally realize. We have experiences sometimes we cannot understand or describe (dreams, for starters). That doesn't mean there is anything supernatural about it, it takes place in our minds.

Did you ever remember something that you were so damn sure you remembered correctly and it turned out to be wrong? That's not supernatural, it's just the way memory works. It's not a perfect mechanism, it works well enough most of the time. But memory is not an unbiased record, different people have different memories of the very same event they witnessed. Again, not supernatural.

Miracles, like god, are not falsifiable or repeatable. It's only one person's account of something that happened. Like people spotting UFO's. Just because someone is convinced they saw it doesn't mean it is true.
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
#4
I believe in miracles that don't defy the laws of nature. I don't believe that Moses split the sea or that he turned a stick into a snake nor do I believe that Jesus could heal the blind. All these defy the law of physics and nature.
 
Jun 26, 2007
2,706
#5
I believe in miracles that don't defy the laws of nature. I don't believe that Moses split the sea or that he turned a stick into a snake nor do I believe that Jesus could heal the blind. All these defy the law of physics and nature.
But that's the definition or a miracle, right?
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
#6
But that's the definition or a miracle, right?
Others interpret it that way. I see miracles as occurrences/events that happen as a result of divine intervention but at the same time they don't defy the laws of nature that God has created.

To take the example above: I don't believe that Moses split the red sea because that would mean Moses had godly powers and not to mention splitting the sea would defy the laws of physics. However, I can see it as a miracle that at the time Moses got there that there was a low tide and when the Pharaohs army tried to cross the same sea that it turned to a high tide.
 
OP
rounder
Jun 13, 2007
7,233
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #7
    No, I don't. The human mind is capable of a lot more than people generally realize. We have experiences sometimes we cannot understand or describe (dreams, for starters). That doesn't mean there is anything supernatural about it, it takes place in our minds.

    Did you ever remember something that you were so damn sure you remembered correctly and it turned out to be wrong? That's not supernatural, it's just the way memory works. It's not a perfect mechanism, it works well enough most of the time. But memory is not an unbiased record, different people have different memories of the very same event they witnessed. Again, not supernatural.

    Miracles, like god, are not falsifiable or repeatable. It's only one person's account of something that happened. Like people spotting UFO's. Just because someone is convinced they saw it doesn't mean it is true.
    That has nothing to do with the article though. The man was diagnosed with an incurable disease and yet he was miraculously cured in church. What does this have to do with dreams etc...?




    I believe in miracles that don't defy the laws of nature. I don't believe that Moses split the sea or that he turned a stick into a snake nor do I believe that Jesus could heal the blind. All these defy the law of physics and nature.
    Miracle : An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God

    I don't understand what you mean Ze. The very purpose of a miracle is that it opposes the laws of physics and nature, otherwise, it wouldn't be a miracle.


    Edit: ok I see, you just interpret it differently.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #8
    That has nothing to do with the article though. The man was diagnosed with an incurable disease and yet he was miraculously cured in church. What does this have to do with dreams etc...?
    But that doesn't mean it defied the laws of physics. Medicine just doesn't understand every single last "law" that applies in the human body. It's one thing to say that if you see an ice cube suddenly catch fire it defies the laws of physics. But noone has shown that a disease being cured in unexpected ways (inside the body, where we cannot see) involved physical laws broken.
     

    Cronios

    Juventolog
    Jun 7, 2004
    27,412
    #9
    Hmm, even if there is a superior Being,
    able to perform miracles.
    He would def leave no trace behind, because that would take away our free will...
     
    OP
    rounder
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #10
    But that doesn't mean it defied the laws of physics. Medicine just doesn't understand every single last "law" that applies in the human body. It's one thing to say that if you see an ice cube suddenly catch fire it defies the laws of physics. But noone has shown that a disease being cured in unexpected ways (inside the body, where we cannot see) involved physical laws broken.
    The man clearly states that he was cured the second the church members lay their hands on him. He was not cured before that incident. I don't think there is any way of explaining this event.

    By the way, it's interesting how you quickly try to refute this incident. Why not try and think about it from once? Maybe there is such thing as miracles. Just because you haven't experiences or witnessed one, that doesn't mean you have to deny people that have. Also, you don't have to try and think of explanations that will falsify this incident just for the sake of it. Maybe you are wrong; at least try considering this statement. I know I have for years.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #12
    By the way, it's interesting how you quickly try to refute this incident. Why not try and think about it from once? Maybe there is such thing as miracles. Just because you haven't experiences or witnessed one, that doesn't mean you have to deny people that have. Also, you don't have to try and think of explanations that will falsify this incident just for the sake of it. Maybe you are wrong; at least try considering this statement. I know I have for years.
    Well, it's not like this is the first time I've ever heard of miracles. The Catholic church appoints a bunch of saints every year for performing miracles. There's also a lot of mythology about famous miracles that are supposed to have occurred that we can't prove one way or the other.

    It's just another body of events that don't have any kind of obvious explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never heard of a miracle or supernatural occurrence happen in a controlled environment with scientific rigor to verify that it is in fact miraculous. Lots of people see things they can't explain, what else is new?
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #14
    Thats the whole point though, if you can explain the thing, then its not a miracle.

    Not that I believe in any of this....
    Well, I can't explain the current state of our club, the fact that the shareholders are allowing this gang of incompetent people run it so badly.

    Is that a miracle?
     

    Cronios

    Juventolog
    Jun 7, 2004
    27,412
    #16
    How would it take away our free will?
    Because a true, undisputed, live, hard evidence that God exists,
    -meaning a miracle-
    would automatically turn every non-believer into a sclave.
    No one would dare to ignore His will, they would all live as pawns.
    But now a miracle can be doubted and so as His will...
     

    Quetzalcoatl

    It ain't hard to tell
    Aug 22, 2007
    65,499
    #17
    Because a true, undisputed, live, hard evidence that God exists,
    -meaning a miracle-
    would automatically turn every non-believer into a sclave.
    No one would dare to ignore His will, they would all live as pawns.
    But now a miracle can be doubted and so as His will...
    I like that answer.
     

    Geof

    Senior Member
    May 14, 2004
    6,740
    #18
    No I don't, but miracles have a highly symbolic value and IMO people very often miss the point of it, or actually put too much weight on some spectacular Harry-Potter-magic.

    Take the wedding of Canaan, where Jesus supposedly turned water into wine. The water-wine thing isn't the most important part of the story; rather, the fact that Jesus used the water of the stone jars in which the Jews made their ritual cleaning. That's a recurrent plot in the New Testament: Jesus, the Rabbi, refuses to strictly apply the rules of the rituals when it doesn't benefit the people. See also, Jesus doing labour on Shabbat etc.

    I don't exclude that Jesus could have made blind people see, but it's more likely to me that he made people see things they couldn't/didn't want to see.
     

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