Do you believe in God (22 Viewers)

[Roverbhoy]

Interesting thread. Some observations and questions-

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
I haven't heard, an explanation for why the universe began to develop such variety as it cooled, since it began as such a balanced, even soup of atomic matter. And why did the stars and planets start to spin around one another in fantastic whirls and patterns?

Try "Wrinkles in Time: The Imprint of Creation" by Smoot and Davison....worked for me

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++

There are suggestions that some of the apostles were married, and even one quite controvertiat one that Jesus himself was married. The vow of celebasy is a dated, stupid rule. It should be removed from the teachings of the church.

If I'm not mistaken "celebasy" is a relatively new thing in the Church...a few hundred years old...remember the Borgas and the nepotism exercised by the Pope to his children...one of the reasons it was introduced, as well as the theory of loving God so much that they could love no other fully if "married" to God first....as well as the cost to the Church of supporting reverend fathers wifes and children

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
I'll never believe we came from apes/chimps, so i shan't bother addressing the first part.

How old is the earth gray?
and after reading other posts what are fossils?

 

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[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++

God isn't part of our universe. God is beyond it

My tu'pence worth....if such an entity as God does exist then Mikhail has a point here.

Gods intelect would be so far beyond that of a mere human it would be like comparing our intellect to that of a worm....have you ever tried explaining yourself to a worm?

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by USA Juventini ] ++

And Gray, how do you know if God isn't a woman? If God made us into his/her own image, and it's no secret that women are the stronger sex, then it would make sense, no?

Good point this, as aren't all men actually women to begin with in the womb, although I'm sure Gray would be more than happy to interchange He with She

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++


Thanks for the explanation I'm just wondering, where did the theory that there were weak translations and changing of the Bible, and loss of verses come from? And how can it be known that the Quran is the final message, unchanged and protected?

Also, the original Greek and Hebrew versions of the Bible remain unchanged and intact, but the multilingual translations were made...obviously...for people who don't know Greek and Hebrew!

Perhaps the fact that there is a King James Bible and a Douay Bible could explain this.

Aren't they two independent translations with wording and spelling being different. Also differences such as Revelation and Apocalypse and the number of books and parts in each being different


Could be confusing for a Christian never mind someone of a different religious belief

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++


If God couldl be proven empirically, that would mean that he must be understood completely by humans... in that case, he wouldn't be much of a God, would he? If humans could prove the existence of God empirically, then it would prove that God doesn't exist

Uh?
Hmm... if God was proven to exist then there would be no need for Faith, just acceptance...this would defeat the need to believe without proof of existance which is one of the prerequisites for entry into Heaven is it not?


Tell me everyone - will it be only worthy members of your religion that will be allowed into Heaven, or will a non-believer such as I be allowed in, even after an exempliary life ( I wish), albeit without God?

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by *aca* ] ++
Just to answer the question which the thread asks.

No.

Succinct and to the point...nice

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by [LAC] ] ++
Here;s a question for you all.

Suppose theres a boxing match. And both boxers believe in your religion, and they both pray with equal faith, live equally righteous lives and are equally loyal to their God and religion. If both pray for victory, who wins?

Maybe the Big One tosses a coin to see who will win, just as I do when wondering if Celtic will beat Rangers this season

 

[Roverbhoy]

Hey...I've got three balls...how come?

 

[Roverbhoy]

Under my name that is!!!!!!!!!...

 

[Layce Erayce]

you have 514 posts- i think you get 3 balls for that.


rover about your question- your looking at the subject from an abstract point of view. while christian theology is formed from the point of view of the creator and sustainer of life, who we refer to as God.

If you were to look at it not just as a rule that exists, that was formed out of nowhere, but as a rule formed by someone- not to condemn them to hell, but to save them from their sins, it might make more sense.

You would go to hell not simply because you were a non-believer. You would go to hell because you are a sinner, as everybody is. Its not just you though, and its not just non-believers. The key is not whether you believe or not. The key is whether your sins have been forgiven. A cliche im sure you've heard millions of times before.

Picture a God who makes man, and watches him go forth and multiply. Picture Him watch man sin- and disobey Him and his rules. Now if you will, imagine Him wanting his children to come back to him, and out of his love and mercy gives them a second chance to come back to him. What we have now is our second chance.

When you look at it from this point of view it should make a lot more sense now shouldnt it?

Of course, you may not believe as I do, but I hope you come around to understand Christianity.

I am in no ways the Christian you would find on the street. I do not belong to a denomination, nor do I go to church, nor do I evangelise, or anything. I decided to become a Christian because of what I had seen and experienced.

And IMHO a lot of the Christianity we have around us is farcical.

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
Interesting thread. Some observations and questions-


Try "Wrinkles in Time: The Imprint of Creation" by Smoot and Davison....worked for me

i'll check that book sometime too... sounds interesting.

If I'm not mistaken "celebasy" is a relatively new thing in the Church...a few hundred years old...remember the Borgas and the nepotism exercised by the Pope to his children...one of the reasons it was introduced, as well as the theory of loving God so much that they could love no other fully if "married" to God first....as well as the cost to the Church of supporting reverend fathers wifes and children

making something a sin when it wasn't made a sin by God is terrible IMO!!

this is just one example of things that have changed in the Christian belief!
There are so many different groups of Christian: Protistants, Baptists, Orthadox, Catholic..etc. each has it's own differences from one origin. how do you know the one your part of is safe from human alterations and different interpretations from translations? (if there still exists a non altered group)

How old is the earth gray?
and after reading other posts what are fossils?

Scientists aren't sure.
I dont believe in the Darwin theory of Human evolution from apes.
for one thing, my relgion says that God made Adam and he was human.
but to look scientifclly, A LOT of asumptions were made when fossils were found. i read somewhere that from a single tooth(which scientists claim was from an old pre-human ape), images of these creatures were made. years later, it was proven that the tooth is fake.
So many fake stories... look for Anti-darwenism proofs online and you'll find a lot. as any online info, only read those with trusted cited sources.
You'd be surprized that The Ape theory is far far away from being proven.

My tu'pence worth....if such an entity as God does exist then Mikhail has a point here.

Gods intelect would be so far beyond that of a mere human it would be like comparing our intellect to that of a worm....have you ever tried explaining yourself to a worm?

well said...we are nothing compared to god. our brains just cannot comprehend God and the details about the skies above.
He created the Universe, so why should he be bounded by its laws?

Good point this, as aren't all men actually women to begin with in the womb, although I'm sure Gray would be more than happy to interchange He with She

In Islam, God shouldn't be thought of as Human-like. the reason why there's man, and woman is for reproductive reasons. God doesn't reproduce nor was he prodeced.
The Quran refers to him as "he" (notice the Him ) .... Reason: It's just like the generalization of "If someone doesn't study, HE will most probiblyl fail."
"He" could mean "He or She." so "he" is used for refference.

Perhaps the fact that there is a King James Bible and a Douay Bible could explain this.

Aren't they two independent translations with wording and spelling being different. Also differences such as Revelation and Apocalypse and the number of books and parts in each being different

Could be confusing for a Christian never mind someone of a different religious belief

very confusing.... shouldn't being "different " different suggest that one of them is wrong!?!? or maybe both! (please dont take this offensively Gray or anyone, i'm just using logic )

Uh?
Hmm... if God was proven to exist then there would be no need for Faith, just acceptance...this would defeat the need to believe without proof of existance which is one of the prerequisites for entry into Heaven is it not?


Tell me everyone - will it be only worthy members of your religion that will be allowed into Heaven, or will a non-believer such as I be allowed in, even after an exempliary life ( I wish), albeit without God?

well said :thumb: i may add to that that God just leaves clear signs of his greatness for people to think and realize. if We can see God, if God speaks to all of us, then where's the purpose of living and of him creating us?!
In Islam, God says "I created the Jinn and Human to worship me." To worship you have to believe right? so i think this pretty much answers your second point!

In Islam, if you do believe in God (jews and Christians) and you do your best, but were missinformed about Islam or You never even heard of Islam, then I'm sure God is all forgiving, but again, it's not for me to say for sure!

Maybe the Big One tosses a coin to see who will win, just as I do when wondering if Celtic will beat Rangers this season

We Muslims believe that god will chose the better result overall for us. It might seem bad at first, but it all works out for the best.
What's interesting is that it's already written down by God because he knows the future (and everything else!).
What some people find hard to grasp is "if god has everthing written down, why should we try our best?"
well....This really requires a long looooong explanation in "Fate," which i have to back out of again because i know (from past conversations) how long it could be.

Hey...I've got three balls...how come?

you passed the 500 post mark ... congrats :thumb:

 

[Fred]

wow majed you really know how to explain our religon,couldnt have put it better myself.

 

[AnnA]

Wow, Majed.... Pretty impressing!!!!

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by [LAC] ] ++
you have 514 posts- i think you get 3 balls for that.


rover about your question- your looking at the subject from an abstract point of view. while christian theology is formed from the point of view of the creator and sustainer of life, who we refer to as God.

If you were to look at it not just as a rule that exists, that was formed out of nowhere, but as a rule formed by someone- not to condemn them to hell, but to save them from their sins, it might make more sense.

You would go to hell not simply because you were a non-believer. You would go to hell because you are a sinner, as everybody is. Its not just you though, and its not just non-believers. The key is not whether you believe or not. The key is whether your sins have been forgiven. A cliche im sure you've heard millions of times before.

Picture a God who makes man, and watches him go forth and multiply. Picture Him watch man sin- and disobey Him and his rules. Now if you will, imagine Him wanting his children to come back to him, and out of his love and mercy gives them a second chance to come back to him. What we have now is our second chance.

When you look at it from this point of view it should make a lot more sense now shouldnt it?

Of course, you may not believe as I do, but I hope you come around to understand Christianity.

I am in no ways the Christian you would find on the street. I do not belong to a denomination, nor do I go to church, nor do I evangelise, or anything. I decided to become a Christian because of what I had seen and experienced.

And IMHO a lot of the Christianity we have around us is farcical.

Hi Lac, how ya' doin'?

About my questions....I'm just playing "Devil's Advocate here...I had thirteen years at Catholic School and three years as an Altar Bhoy (Gee I really like ringing those bells...how cool was that?) I'm pretty well up on Christian beliefs...I was really directing my question to those of other beliefs of which I'm shamefully ignorant of, but thanks for contributing your answer.

I also asked as I was reminded of the old joke about the non-believer who was being shown round God's mansion of many halls by St Peter; At each door he was shown what was inside...room one - Jews, two - Muslims, Three - Budhist's, etc, until he came to room three hundred and twelve. St Peter told the non believer to tiptoe by that door and not open it...why not asked the non believer?...that's the Catholics room answered St Peter...they think they are here by themselves. (no offence to Catholics...it can be changed to any religion and is meant to be a humerous tale).

 

[Martin]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
I also asked as I was reminded of the old joke about the non-believer who was being shown round God's mansion of many halls by St Peter; At each door he was shown what was inside...room one - Jews, two - Muslims, Three - Budhist's, etc, until he came to room three hundred and twelve. St Peter told the non believer to tiptoe by that door and not open it...why not asked the non believer?...that's the Catholics room answered St Peter...they think they are here by themselves. (no offence to Catholics...it can be changed to any religion and is meant to be a humerous tale).

Good one

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


Scientists aren't sure.
I dont believe in the Darwin theory of Human evolution from apes.
for one thing, my relgion says that God made Adam and he was human.
but to look scientifclly, A LOT of asumptions were made when fossils were found. i read somewhere that from a single tooth(which scientists claim was from an old pre-human ape), images of these creatures were made. years later, it was proven that the tooth is fake.
So many fake stories... look for Anti-darwenism proofs online and you'll find a lot. as any online info, only read those with trusted cited sources.
You'd be surprized that The Ape theory is far far away from being proven.


In Islam, God shouldn't be thought of as Human-like. the reason why there's man, and woman is for reproductive reasons. God doesn't reproduce nor was he prodeced.
The Quran refers to him as "he" (notice the Him ) .... Reason: It's just like the generalization of "If someone doesn't study, HE will most probiblyl fail."
"He" could mean "He or She." so "he" is used for refference.



We Muslims believe that god will chose the better result overall for us. It might seem bad at first, but it all works out for the best.
What's interesting is that it's already written down by God because he knows the future (and everything else!).
What some people find hard to grasp is "if god has everthing written down, why should we try our best?"
well....This really requires a long looooong explanation in "Fate," which i have to back out of again because i know (from past conversations) how long it could be.



you passed the 500 post mark ... congrats :thumb:

Again, I was asking not because I was looking for the four or five billion year old age, but rather as some Catholics and other Christians still believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, a calculation made by a Catholic Cardinal a few centuries ago, which became doctrine (is this still doctrine?)


As for God choosing the best result...then surely Celtic would win every time?:dontcare:

 

[Roverbhoy]

The 500 mark...ahh...if only I'd brought all those other posts accross from before the previous forum changes...I'd be up to...oh at least six hundred now hehe


Thanks for the congrats guys and gals:cheesy:

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
Try "Wrinkles in Time: The Imprint of Creation" by Smoot and Davison....worked for me

Must look it up. Thanks for the recommendation. :thumb:

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
Perhaps the fact that there is a King James Bible and a Douay Bible could explain this.

We do have the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are, IIRC, basically an approximately 2000-year-old Bible. I'm not sure if they just contain the Old Testiment or if they're complete.

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
Hey...I've got three balls...how come?

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
Under my name that is!!!!!!!!!...

Genuinely had me worried there for a second! Congratulations. arty: I think you get a fourth ball if/when you hit 1000 posts, and a fifth and sixth for further totals. Or as Martin might put it, RTFM.

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
I dont believe in the Darwin theory of Human evolution from apes.
for one thing, my relgion says that God made Adam and he was human.
but to look scientifclly...look for Anti-darwenism proofs online and you'll find a lot. as any online info, only read those with trusted cited sources.
You'd be surprized that The Ape theory is far far away from being proven.

You guys are going to have me snowed under with reading material. Astro-physics, anthropology, comparative theology...
Good thing I can speed-read.

I have to say about the Adam and Eve story, consider that it suggests we're all decended from two people. Consider the British royal family - inbred as you please, and completely barmey. Consider that Noah took some 6 (ish?) people into the ark, culled from this already inbred population, and then these six people decended to every person on Earth.

So how does all that explain the black, white and oriental strains of humanity without evolution? Sometimes old stories are just that - old stories.

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
In Islam, God shouldn't be thought of as Human-like. the reason why there's man, and woman is for reproductive reasons. God doesn't reproduce nor was he prodeced.

I agree. God is not human-like, and so the "God made man in his image" story is just wishful thinking. Gender is an animal thing, a physical thing. God is neither.

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
very confusing.... shouldn't being "different " different suggest that one of them is wrong!?!? or maybe both!

Doesn't it though. I think that if religious prophets are genuinely a manifestation of God speaking to us, His message cannot be received uncorrupted by our own flawed consciousness.

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
In Islam, if you do believe in God (jews and Christians) and you do your best, but were missinformed about Islam or You never even heard of Islam, then I'm sure God is all forgiving, but again, it's not for me to say for sure!

Once this wasn't the way of Christianity. Unbaptised babies (still-born for example) couldn't get to Heaven, but rather spent eternity in Limbo, a now discarded part of Catholic theology. Now, AFAIK, anyone who means well can get into Heaven. One more reason I don't prescribe to dogma.

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
What's interesting is that it's already written down by God because he knows the future (and everything else!).
What some people find hard to grasp is "if god has everthing written down, why should we try our best?"

The one salvagable line from the Matrix (other than the red pill-blue pill one) refers to fate:
"You're not here to make that decision. You've already made it. You're here to understand why you made it." - The Oracle.
I suspect that we are in fact subject to fate - the clockwork model of the universe I mentioned earlier comes into play again. I may well be wrong. Did God build free will (or as I see it, uncertainty) into the universe?

The way I see it goes like this: If I make a decision, and am then placed in exactly the same position again, will I make the same decision? I think I would - I am what I am.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
I also asked as I was reminded of the old joke about the non-believer who was being shown round God's mansion of many halls by St Peter; At each door he was shown what was inside...room one - Jews, two - Muslims, Three - Budhist's, etc, until he came to room three hundred and twelve. St Peter told the non believer to tiptoe by that door and not open it...why not asked the non believer?...that's the Catholics room answered St Peter...they think they are here by themselves. (no offence to Catholics...it can be changed to any religion and is meant to be a humerous tale).

Like it.

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
Again, I was asking not because I was looking for the four or five billion year old age, but rather as some Catholics and other Christians still believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, a calculation made by a Catholic Cardinal a few centuries ago, which became doctrine (is this still doctrine?)

I don't know if it was ever doctrine. I'm nearly sure they've discarded it at this stage. The Pope couldn't imagine a God with a sense of humour ...planting all that evidence just to make fun of us with the Archangels!

++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++
As for God choosing the best result...then surely Celtic would win every time?:dontcare:

This goes back to a debate between Gray and me as to how completely God controls the Universe. I subscribe to the theory that He merely made the whole thing, wound it up and set it going. Gray reckons He controls the trajectory of your urine as it heads for the toilet bowl (or not!).

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++


Must look it up. Thanks for the recommendation. :thumb:

Maybe a little out of date now...we are talking mid ninetees afterall

We do have the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are, IIRC, basically an approximately 2000-year-old Bible. I'm not sure if they just contain the Old Testiment or if they're complete.

You guys are going to have me snowed under with reading material. Astro-physics, anthropology, comparative theology...
Good thing I can speed-read.

Just as well...try, if you haven't already, "The Mystery and Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls" by Hershall Shanks..or if you really have time on your hands "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English" by Geza Vermes...phew:dazed:

The Dead Sea Scrolls come from the same period as Jesus although he is not mentioned specifically, although there is someone who resembles Him remarkably.