Defining or interpreting god? (1 Viewer)

Jun 26, 2007
2,706
#1
There is a lot of confusion regarding the definition of god. And it's this confusion that makes atheists think they can righteously say to theists (defined in the most broad sense of the word here) that god doesn't exist. But actually, god does exist if you're assuming causality*. What most theists are wrong about though, is their claim that they have the knowledge to interpret this defined notion of god, that they can give meaning to it. Which is by definition impossible.

If we're willing to analyze what people understand by the concept of god, there can only be one core definition. All people who believe in god and have given it some thought must have this one true definition in common. What different believers don't have in common regarding god, isn't part of that definition anymore. It's merely an interpretation of that definition, usually added by religion.

So what is this universal definition of god?

When we look around we see a lot of things. Man has a fundamental drive that makes him want to understand the things he sees. But, in order for us to understand something, we must describe it. A description is only satisfying if we can describe something in terms of causality. A rock, for instance, is a bunch of atoms that were glued together by physical interaction between those atoms. To most, this description will be more than satisfying enough. But not for all unfortunately. A more complete description should also describe what these atoms are, and then what these sub-atomic particles are etc. until we reach the tiniest particle of the universe (this elementary particle does exist). And even then some hardcore researchers wil stilll not be satisfied and ask: "So how did these elementary particles came into existence?". Our drive to explain things in terms of causality will never be fully satisfied. How do I know that? Well, because everything in our universe, and the universe itself, started to exist at some point. There are plenty of articles explaining why this is a fact, so I'm not going into detail on that. The point is, there must be some mechanism that caused the existence of our universe, because everything that starts to exist must have a cause. The problem is, we can never understand this fundamental mechanism, because it is by definition acausal, and we can only describe and therefore understand something in terms of causality. And it is this fundamental acausal mechanism that is our core notion of god. We cannot understand this mechanism because we cannot describe it, but still throughout history man has tried (in vain) to make it more understandable, by giving personal interpretations ("god does this and that because he wants this and that"). Some people shared the same interpretations, and that's how religion came into existence, joining people and sometimes forcing people to have the same interpretations. When I'm calling some atheists close minded, I do that because they seem to refuse to think about the notion of god outside the frame of religion. They refuse to see this core definition of god and therefore reject all notions of god, because they realize interpreting it is impossible.



*causality that doesn't require time
 

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Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#4
What I was arguing in the other thread was that applying causality to the beginning of the universe is invalid. In other words, it's not god that is acausal and created the universe. It's the universe that is acausal. Why? Because there is no possible cause for it.

See, causality only makes sense so far as there is a possible cause to the effect you're studying. If there isn't one, talking about causality doesn't make sense. It's just as meaningless as the question "what time was it before there was time?".

Now some people want to say that the universe was caused, by god. I argue that this is redundant, because all you've done is reassign what is causal and what is acausal and you've made no progress whatsoever to eliminating acausality.
 

Stephan

Senior Member
Nov 9, 2005
16,394
#6
What I was arguing in the other thread was that applying causality to the beginning of the universe is invalid. In other words, it's not god that is acausal and created the universe. It's the universe that is acausal. Why? Because there is no possible cause for it.

See, causality only makes sense so far as there is a possible cause to the effect you're studying. If there isn't one, talking about causality doesn't make sense. It's just as meaningless as the question "what time was it before there was time?".

Now some people want to say that the universe was caused, by god. I argue that this is redundant, because all you've done is reassign what is causal and what is acausal and you've made no progress whatsoever to eliminating acausality.
Current interpretations of astronomical observations indicate that the age of the Universe is 13.73 (± 0.12) billion years,[1] and that the diameter of the observable Universe is at least 93 billion light years, or 8.80 × 1026 metres. (It may seem paradoxical that two galaxies can be separated by 93 billion light years in only 13 billion years, since special relativity states that matter cannot be accelerated to exceed the speed of light in a localized region of space-time. However, according to general relativity, space can expand with no intrinsic limit on its rate; thus, two galaxies can separate more quickly than the speed of light if the space between them grows.) It is uncertain whether the size of the Universe is finite or infinite.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#7
Current interpretations of astronomical observations indicate that the age of the Universe is 13.73 (± 0.12) billion years,[1] and that the diameter of the observable Universe is at least 93 billion light years, or 8.80 × 1026 metres. (It may seem paradoxical that two galaxies can be separated by 93 billion light years in only 13 billion years, since special relativity states that matter cannot be accelerated to exceed the speed of light in a localized region of space-time. However, according to general relativity, space can expand with no intrinsic limit on its rate; thus, two galaxies can separate more quickly than the speed of light if the space between them grows.) It is uncertain whether the size of the Universe is finite or infinite.
:lol:
 
OP
Dinsdale
Jun 26, 2007
2,706
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #8
    What I was arguing in the other thread was that applying causality to the beginning of the universe is invalid. In other words, it's not god that is acausal and created the universe. It's the universe that is acausal.
    So you agree that the universe had a beginning, but then you claim that this beginning isn't caused by anything. Doesn't that contradict common logic? When you see a rock, you don't say: "Well it came into existence, but nothing caused it to exist. It just all of a sudden was there and that's it."
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #9
    What most theists are wrong about though, is their claim that they have the knowledge to interpret this defined notion of god, that they can give meaning to it. Which is by definition impossible.
    In that case you should probably call those with a "rational" entitlement to god as deists. Instead of saying "theists are not wrong" or something like that.
     
    OP
    Dinsdale
    Jun 26, 2007
    2,706
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #10
    Current interpretations of astronomical observations indicate that the age of the Universe is 13.73 (± 0.12) billion years,[1] and that the diameter of the observable Universe is at least 93 billion light years, or 8.80 × 1026 metres. (It may seem paradoxical that two galaxies can be separated by 93 billion light years in only 13 billion years, since special relativity states that matter cannot be accelerated to exceed the speed of light in a localized region of space-time. However, according to general relativity, space can expand with no intrinsic limit on its rate; thus, two galaxies can separate more quickly than the speed of light if the space between them grows.) It is uncertain whether the size of the Universe is finite or infinite.
    Thanks for sharing this insight. :D
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    38,288
    #11
    So you agree that the universe had a beginning, but then you claim that this beginning isn't caused by anything. Doesn't that contradict common logic? When you see a rock, you don't say: "Well it came into existence, but nothing caused it to exist. It just all of a sudden was there and that's it."
    Not really.

    If something doesn't exist long enough, it will start to exist at some point. Given the fact that before the universe existed, there was probably no such thing as time either, it had to happen.

    You have nothing, yet you have eternity for it to happen.
     
    OP
    Dinsdale
    Jun 26, 2007
    2,706
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #12
    In that case you should probably call those with a "rational" entitlement to god as deists. Instead of saying "theists are not wrong" or something like that.
    Huh? :D

    Not really.

    If something doesn't exist long enough, it will start to exist at some point. Given the fact that before the universe existed, there was probably no such thing as time either, it had to happen.

    You have nothing, yet you have eternity for it to happen.
    Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say. It seems contradictory to me.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #15
    So you agree that the universe had a beginning, but then you claim that this beginning isn't caused by anything. Doesn't that contradict common logic? When you see a rock, you don't say: "Well it came into existence, but nothing caused it to exist. It just all of a sudden was there and that's it."
    The only way to hope to make any sense of the universe is to treat it like a special case. The universe is not "like everything else", it is precisely: everything.

    You cannot first state that "the universe defines time" and then say "what time was it before the universe". The same goes for causality. If there is no time before the universe there's also no cause, because cause is measured in time, yes?


    Btw, what you said about subparticles being the cause of particles is a very strange take on causality. Usually we talk about causality as related events in time.
     

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