Debunking the "implausibility" argument (3 Viewers)

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#1
The classical creationist argument typically starts something like this... "Our planet and our universe are such a complicated things. And we, as organisms, are no less complicated, I mean who can explain the human mind? Scientists have measured that the exact conditions in which our universe exists are so fragile that if you adjust the rate of the expansions of the universe just a little bit, the conditions for life on earth would vanish. Isn't it implausible, then, that all of this could have come into being just by itself?"

The exact statements are not vital, the key is building this intuition for implausibility. All of this, so unlikely, and yet it is. How can that be?

The correct response is: based on what? In order for something to be plausible or implausible, we have to expect a particular outcome, because "plausibility" is a statement about expectation. "*This* was the expected outcome, *this* is the actual outcome, but we didn't expect it."

In statistics, probability is defined as the likelihood of a particular outcome, somewhere between absolute certainty that it will be one way, and absolute certainty that it will be the other way. If you flip a coin it can either be head or tails. On average, and unbiased coin has 0.5 (or 50%) probability of landing heads. This is not a guess, it is an intuition based on measurement. Given the coin's symmetry, we can measure that flipping the coin a number of times gives a probability of heads close to 0.5. And the more times we flip it, the closer we come to 0.5.

But, if we only flip the coin once, and we get heads, then our *measured* probability of heads is 100%. So if we do one coin flip, and someone says "isn't it implausible that you got heads?" we would say "based on our experience, no other outcome is plausible".

So when someone says "isn't it implausible that the universe came to exist precisely the way that it is?", does this mean this person has a body of knowledge of possible outcomes with their respective probabilities?

Imagine for a moment that the creation of the universe, however you want to picture it, is an experiment that can be repeated. Imagine that you have season tickets to the creation of the universe. You come in, show your ticket, get your popcorn, and take a seat in the audience. Now suppose you watch the universe created 100 times, each with a slightly different result. Suppose that out of those 100 times, only once did it happen with the characteristics that our universe has, the characteristics that make life possible. So out of 100 times, only once did the universe appear the way our universe is. Having witnessed this, it would be reasonable to say that "yes, our particular universe is an unlikely one".

So what about God? Well, if you had seen the universe come into being 100 times, and only one of those experiments was "successful" from our standpoint, what reason do you have to believe that God made it happen? God is not visible to the human eye, so you could not actually have watched him do it. How do you know that God built the successful universe and that all the other tries failed without Him? Maybe *He* was the one messing with the control panel 99 times, and screwed it up every time, and the one time he went to the bathroom it just happened to work? Or maybe he wasn't there at all, maybe he was playing golf at the time. How do you know if you didn't see Him?



We know from our physical world that being able to measure things gives us insight. And once we measure something we get a number. We can measure that the acceleration of gravity is ~9.8m/s2. This is a number we can compare to other numbers. Indeed, the *existence* of this number gives us the intution that perhaps the measurement could have produced a *different* number. If we measure the acceleration of a parachute, it would be a smaller number. If we measure the acceleration of a rocket traveling towards the ground, it would be a bigger number. So why does the acceleration of gravity produce the number 9.8? Is it because God decided this is the best number? Why didn't He choose a different number?

This is a false intuition. The ability to measure something does *not* give us any insight about possible other values this measurement could give. If we measure the acceleration of gravity then we can *contemplate* the possibility that this number could be a different number. But the ability to imagine this possibility does not make it probable, or even possible, for this to occur. It exists only in our imagination.

Suppose you are driving a car. The speedometer says 50km/h, so you know that your current speed has a certain value. Does this fact answer the question "can this car do 150km/h?". No, it doesn't. You can accelerate and find out, but you can't tell just from reading off the value 50. We know something about cars. We know that some cars can do 150km/h and no car can do 1500km/h. If you need to know something about your own car, you can read the instruction manual. And if you need to know something about your universe, you can.... what?

Yes, we can measure certain things in our universe, like the acceleration of gravity, like the size of a molecule. But these measurements do not tell us anything about the possible values the measurements could give. We know that the acceleration of gravity is 9.8m/s2, we've measured it. So what does this mean? That we are lucky? How can we tell from a measurement that always gives the same value what other values are possible? Or probable? If the gravitational force was 100 times weaker, maybe we would all risk going into orbit? And maybe if you car could do 1500km/h it would explode? But it can't. Does this mean you're lucky? How is it luck to avoid something that has a 0% probability of happening?

For something to be implausible it has to defy an established trend. So what is the trend we have about universes?
 

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Jun 13, 2007
7,233
#6
About the implausibility argument.

The answer to your question is the formation of a world where conditions are not suitable to live in. The probability that this (perfect) world was formed by absolute randomness is implausible. Randomization opposes perfection, when you do something randomly; the chances of the outcome being absolutely perfect are extremely slim.

The universe, if formed completely randomly, would be an imperfect universe. The two are inversely proportional. We have a perfect universe that has made it possible for us to exist. If the sun was closer to the earth, we wouldn't exist. If the sun was farther away from the earth, we wouldn't exist. If certain types of natural phenomena didn't occur every single day(rain), we wouldn't exist.

There are simply far too many conditions that have to be absolutely perfect for our existence. It is implausible that these conditions were a result of complete randomization; it makes no sense to me.
 
Jan 7, 2004
29,704
#7
martin, thanks for quite a grand contribution

let's get something straight once and for all. the conditions were there for about 10 Billion years and then 4 billion years ago life came out that adapted to them and the constant change in conditions leads to a constant change in life.

one of my favorite stupid arguments from theists is that this universe coming into existence is like dropping all the pages of a dictionary on the ground and have it come in order. no, it's like dropping the pages and them using them as it is.

i don't know where this idea of "perfection" has come about, the more we find out about the universe and other creatures, including humans, the more imperfections we find.

if you'll forgive me martin, the acceleration due to gravity (a fundamental force in this universe) is 9.80665 m/s2 not 10, which would seem more "perfect" from your argumentation juve revolution

by the way, we have found records that there was life on earth before there was oxygen in the atmosphere, it was a much much different life that used energy on chemical bonds, what makes you so sure that changing the other variables wouldn't have the same results.

perfection is just a matter of perspective.
 
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Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
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  • Thread Starter #8
    If the sun was closer to the earth, we wouldn't exist. If the sun was farther away from the earth, we wouldn't exist.
    This is the problem. You are assuming, purely because you can imagine it, that this is possible. That it may well have been that the earth could be closer or further from the sun. But you have nothing to prove this. Because you've never seen the earth closer or further away from the sun. Just because you can imagine something doesn't make it real.
     
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    Martin

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
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  • Thread Starter #9
    martin, thanks for quite a grand contribution

    let's get something straight once and for all. the conditions were there for about 10 Billion years and then 4 billion years ago life came out that adapted to them and the constant change in conditions leads to a constant change in life.

    one of my favorite stupid arguments from theists is that this universe coming into existence is like dropping all the pages of a dictionary on the ground and have it come in order. no, it's like dropping the pages and them using them as it is.
    I know, it's just ignorance and, more importantly, closed mindedness. A person who sees a cake for the first time thinks it's miraculous, because he's never seen how a cake is made. And there are tons of people who even when they're told how life evolved just refuse to listen and insist that it must have been a miracle.
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    #10
    It's not that I'm imagining. It is a fact. If we encountered an ice age, we will die. This is reality, not my imagination. If we encountered unrealsiticaly high tempeatures, our body would not be able to cope with them, therefore, we will die.

    Now the perfection argument. Why is 10 assumed to be more perfect than 9.81? Is it because the number 10 appeals to you more, is it because 10 is an even number, or is it because 10 is not a prime number? Which of these has remarkably given you the notion that 10 is the perfect number, not 9.81?

    Martin, you continually label us thesits as closed minded people, why? Because we have different opinions and thoughts than yours? What you said can easilly be applied to you. You are perhaps the closed minded person for refusing to accept the idea of a higher power. I don't understand how you are so sure you know everything when in actuality you don't. How can you so confidently trust in a scientific world that has been historically reknown for consistently comitting wrong assumptions?

    Bes, you assume the universe has been in the process of formation for billions of years. How do you know that? It may have been trillions of years but we just don't know it yet. You assume that the facts scientists have given us today are absolutely flawlessly true, and you choose to accept them because they are a result of factual evidence. I refuse to accept them. That's the difference between us.


    Not a long time ago; scientists believed the world to be flat. Given the FACTUAl evidence they had; no one could doubt them at the time. According to you, it would have been moronic and ignorant to doubt scientific assumptions based on pure facts. Now we know they are wrong.

    In this time and age; we assume we have the answers because of our factual evidence. Do we really? Are we really any different than those who thought the world was flat? We are just giving conclusions based on what we know. What we know now is by no means the absolute truth; it would be idiotic to believe otherwise.

    Science can not prove theism wrong plainly and simply because science contially changes with time and therefore is not absolute itself, how can it possibly disprove something that is? I don't think we can conclude we know the truth given the evidence we have now. I think it is stupid to call theists ignorant. Atheists are no less ignorant in that matter.
     
    Jun 26, 2007
    2,706
    #11
    I agree that the implausibility argument is false. Btw, perfection is just a convention, like Bes said.

    if you'll forgive me martin, the acceleration due to gravity (a fundamental force in this universe) is 9.80665 m/s2 not 10, which would seem more "perfect" from your argumentation juve revolution
    Actually it's a variable depending on how far you are removed from the earth's centre.

    by the way, we have found records that there was life on earth before there was oxygen in the atmosphere, it was a much much different life that used energy on chemical bonds, what makes you so sure that changing the other variables wouldn't have the same results.
    I think these lifeforms still exist deep down in the ocean, and that they also don't need light.
     
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    Martin

    Martin

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    Dec 31, 2000
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  • Thread Starter #12
    It's not that I'm imagining. It is a fact. If we encountered an ice age, we will die. This is reality, not my imagination. If we encountered unrealsiticaly high tempeatures, our body would not be able to cope with them, therefore, we will die.
    You are imagining that our planet could just as well have been positioned in a different distance from the earth. This is just your imagination talking. It doesn't make it possible or likely to happen. Therefore there is no basis to conclude that we are "lucky" to be at the particular distance from the sun.

    I've made this point now several times and it seems that you just can't grasp it.

    Martin, you continually label us thesits as closed minded people, why? Because we have different opinions and thoughts than yours?
    What does close mindedness mean? It means that you have decided what your opinion is and you're not interested in considering the arguments for a different opinion. Or even if you do consider the arguments, you refuse to accept the conclusions that they give. Why would I call you close minded? Because that seems to me is what you're doing.

    You are perhaps the closed minded person for refusing to accept the idea of a higher power.
    I am not refusing to accept the idea, I simply do not believe in it because I have no reason to believe. How is that close minded?

    I don't understand how you are so sure you know everything when in actuality you don't.
    Yet another misunderstanding. I do not think I know everything. On the contrary, I question people who say they know something without giving me a good reason why they know it.

    How can you so confidently trust in a scientific world that has been historically reknown for consistently comitting wrong assumptions?
    This betrays a basic misunderstanding about what science is, and how science is different from theist belief. You say that science is flawed because some of its conclusions are shown to be incorrect. In other words, you think that science should come up with answers that will never be shown to be wrong. How can anyone misunderstand science more? Science is not religion, so stop thinking it is. Religion gives answers that are supposed to hold forever. Science gives answers that are supposed to stand only until we find out something new that makes them wrong. This is not a flaw of science, this is the whole point of science.

    I think it is stupid to call theists ignorant. Atheists are no less ignorant in that matter.
    When I say ignorant I don't mean ignorant in general, I mean ignorant about something very specific. The word "ignorant" doesn't make any sense in general because everyone is ignorant of almost everything. It only make sense in some specific context.
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    #13
    1)
    You are imagining that our planet could just as well have been positioned in a different distance from the earth. This is just your imagination talking. It doesn't make it possible or likely to happen. Therefore there is no basis to conclude that we are "lucky" to be at the particular distance from the sun.

    I've made this point now several times and it seems that you just can't grasp it.


    2)
    What does close mindedness mean? It means that you have decided what your opinion is and you're not interested in considering the arguments for a different opinion. Or even if you do consider the arguments, you refuse to accept the conclusions that they give. Why would I call you close minded? Because that seems to me is what you're doing.


    3)
    I am not refusing to accept the idea, I simply do not believe in it because I have no reason to believe. How is that close minded?


    4)
    Yet another misunderstanding. I do not think I know everything. On the contrary, I question people who say they know something without giving me a good reason why they know it.


    5)
    This betrays a basic misunderstanding about what science is, and how science is different from theist belief. You say that science is flawed because some of its conclusions are shown to be incorrect. In other words, you think that science should come up with answers that will never be shown to be wrong. How can anyone misunderstand science more? Science is not religion, so stop thinking it is. Religion gives answers that are supposed to hold forever. Science gives answers that are supposed to stand only until we find out something new that makes them wrong. This is not a flaw of science, this is the whole point of science.


    6)
    When I say ignorant I don't mean ignorant in general, I mean ignorant about something very specific. The word "ignorant" doesn't make any sense in general because everyone is ignorant of almost everything. It only make sense in some specific context.
    1)

    If you take a look at the universe and position the earth at any other position and study the enviroment at that particular place, you will find that we won't be able to exist anywhere but where we are at the moment to a certain extent. I understand what you are saying, but I still believe that the perfect balance the universe holds for us to exist should have more to it that mere coincidence.

    2)
    I have not decided on my opinion forever. If presented with irrefutable evidence that I am wrong, I may change my mind in a matter of 1 hour. With what I know and what I sense is true, I conclude that there must be a higher power. None of the evidence that science has offered have strong enough to disprove this opinion. Not because the evidence presented is untrue now, but because soon enough it probably will be untrue.

    3) If you do enough research you will find that you have plenty of reason to believe. There is so much science and logic cannot prove. There are miracles happening every single day that would even have the most committed atheist mind boggled. If you think that I am ignorant for denying facts, then I can say the same about you for denying miracles.

    4)ok

    5) I understand what science is but why should I absolutely believe in something that is fundamentally expected to change. Why is it more reasonable to believe in science than believe in god? With god, it is about having faith. With science, it is about completely believing something that is potentially fallacious.

    6) Exactly. I believe we are all equally ignorant human beings that simply view matters differently. Even on this particular matter, it wouldn't make sense to me if either side labelled the other "ignorant".
     
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    Martin

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
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  • Thread Starter #14
    1)

    If you take a look at the universe and position the earth at any other position and study the enviroment at that particular place, you will find that we won't be able to exist anywhere but where we are at the moment to a certain extent. I understand what you are saying, but I still believe that the perfect balance the universe holds for us to exist should have more to it that mere coincidence.
    If you hold a ball in your hands and drop it, it falls to the ground. Precisely to the ground. It doesn't travel halfway to the ground, or any other distance. Does that seem "too perfect" to you? We know there is a good reason for why a ball falls to the ground, so why shouldn't there be a good reason why our planet is where it is, the size that it is and so on. Even if we don't know what this reason is (yet)?

    3) If you do enough research you will find that you have plenty of reason to believe. There is so much science and logic cannot prove. There are miracles happening every single day that would even have the most committed atheist mind boggled. If you think that I am ignorant for denying facts, then I can say the same about you for denying miracles.
    Go back to my example about season tickets to the creation of the universe. If if I cannot see, or feel, or hear a God, what basis do I have to believe that he exists? Just because something happens that I don't understand doesn't mean it has to be God. In ancient times an eclipse of the sun was thought to be an act of god. Today we know better. We still don't understand everything, but I have no problem with that.

    5) I understand what science is but why should I absolutely believe in something that is fundamentally expected to change. Why is it more reasonable to believe in science than believe in god? With god, it is about having faith. With science, it is about completely believing something that is potentially fallacious.
    Do you believe the sun will rise tomorrow? Science says it will. You can reject this by saying that science has been wrong before. But why would you reject the only source of information that you have?
     

    Zlatan

    Senior Member
    Jun 9, 2003
    23,049
    #17
    I dislike this whole "the Earth is perfect for life and we couldnt live if anything was just a bit different" argument.

    Sure, perhaps we couldnt, but thats because our form of life is suited to these conditions. Perhaps there are other forms of life that dont need any of the conditions we have, but are still able to live and exist?

    I believe it's a mistake to believe that the conditions are suited to us, rather than us being suited to them.
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    #20
    Yes, but he's using the same implausibility tactic. You can see that what he's saying it's convincing, and yet it's the same exact way that creationists argue their hypothesis.
    What he said was convincing. I just thought what he said at the beggining was hilarious, " the atheist's worst nightmare". Like that was going to prove creationism. Although I do like his creativity.
     

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