Controversy Thread part 2: Religious discussion (10 Viewers)

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++

Sorry, but IMB, the cross, as a symbol is idolotry, you will never find a cross in any meeting house of the Society of Friends.

could u please tell me more about this?

Luke 9:23 - Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."

By pointing out this verse, I'm not trying to say that Jesus wanted us all to wear crosses on our necks, but that He does not object to the cross being used as the burden that The Lord bore for our sins.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth John 1:1–3, 14

In these verses, John used the phrase “the Word” in exchange for Jesus Christ. He wasn't talking about the Bible or actual 'words'.

 

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[Layce Erayce]

Gray the RSoF is just a more formal name for the quakers.

Ian maybe your definition of the word worship is different from mine or indeed gray's also. But I dont call it worship if its sole purpose is to identify who you are or have it as a reminder. Would you call it worship? Because I think the possible difference in opinion might lie there.

The source/reason idol worship is deemed 'wrong' in the bible is because of Exodus 11- the ten commandments. is that why you disagree with it also?

Gray I never really understood the verse in Luke. I somehow dont think he meant we should go around carrying our crosses. At that time nobody associated Christ with the cross. What do you understand from that verse?

 

[gigi's twin]

I think Jesus wanted to tell us there, that everyone of us have to bring his/her difficulties during the life. And you have to do it without complaints. All of our crosses are different, but the common is that we have to suffer for his name as he did for our sins. And this way we can learn how important was this gift, that he gave his life for us. And you will know that this is something that you can never pay back to him, even if you sufferred during your whole life. And through this you will learn how much did he loved all of us!

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
could u please tell me more about this?

I'd be delighted. As Lac mentioned, the more common term for the Friends is Quakers. Don't ask me how we got this name, I'm not sure that anyone knows. Quakers gained notority in the US because of their involvement in the abolitionist movement leading up to the civil war. You may have some knowlege of quakers being the folks who wear all black and have strange hats and say things like "thee" and "thy". The society actually started in England, and that is where my family became members. The Society believes strongly in the equality of all humans before god, and also, it is a classic tennant is non-violence. The Society is a very community oriented group, but worship is very personal. Worship takes place in a very plain and common room devoid of all idolotry or decoration, having only plain walls, benches, floor, and a ceilling. Worship generally lasts an hour during which time anyone in the meeting ma rise and speak abouut whatever they like, though, I doubt anyone has ever spoken of much more than god and family. Other than the people who rise, the meeting consists of absolute silent reflection. The Society is a protestant sect of christianity, though none of the other christian religions recognise it. We believe very strongly in the personal interpretation of scripture. Humility and virtue are the most admired attributes of a Friend.

Now, I wasn't always as devoted to my faith as I am today. It took me a lot of time and all of my many experiences to remember my faith. I'd never try to tell you what to believe or what not to believe, for that is thine own and unto thee I can give thee nothing for it. Please don't think that I'm trying to force my beliefs upon you. But, I would enjoy if we continued to share our beliefs. Please, feel free to ask questions if I have not made my religion clear, and that's goes for everyone, not just gray, I imagine that few people have heard of it, or know what is to be known.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
By pointing out this verse, I'm not trying to say that Jesus wanted us all to wear crosses on our necks, but that He does not object to the cross being used as the burden that The Lord bore for our sins.

Have you ever seen a picture of mohammed? I bet you haven't, because in Islam, idol worship, especially of mohammed is strictly forbidden. In my religion, we believe that the word of god is his word and our word to share with each other as we may be guided. God's word is not to be played with to suit our purposes so that we can identify ourselves. We do not need to symbolise our faith, we do not need to remind ourselves except that we gather together once a week, once per month, and once per year to quietly reflect and this is the only reminder we need. My cross is the Society, my cross is every action that I take in daily life.

 

[aressandro10]

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


I'd be delighted. As Lac mentioned, the more common term for the Friends is Quakers. Don't ask me how we got this name, I'm not sure that anyone knows. Quakers gained notority in the US because of their involvement in the abolitionist movement leading up to the civil war. You may have some knowlege of quakers being the folks who wear all black and have strange hats and say things like "thee" and "thy". The society actually started in England, and that is where my family became members. The Society believes strongly in the equality of all humans before god, and also, it is a classic tennant is non-violence. The Society is a very community oriented group, but worship is very personal. Worship takes place in a very plain and common room devoid of all idolotry or decoration, having only plain walls, benches, floor, and a ceilling. Worship generally lasts an hour during which time anyone in the meeting ma rise and speak abouut whatever they like, though, I doubt anyone has ever spoken of much more than god and family. Other than the people who rise, the meeting consists of absolute silent reflection. The Society is a protestant sect of christianity, though none of the other christian religions recognise it. We believe very strongly in the personal interpretation of scripture. Humility and virtue are the most admired attributes of a Friend.

Now, I wasn't always as devoted to my faith as I am today. It took me a lot of time and all of my many experiences to remember my faith. I'd never try to tell you what to believe or what not to believe, for that is thine own and unto thee I can give thee nothing for it. Please don't think that I'm trying to force my beliefs upon you. But, I would enjoy if we continued to share our beliefs. Please, feel free to ask questions if I have not made my religion clear, and that's goes for everyone, not just gray, I imagine that few people have heard of it, or know what is to be known.

this is very interesting Ian as this is the first time i heard such sect of Christianity. tell me..do you guys also use the Bible ? ( forgive me if this question sounds offensively stupid : ) )

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by aressandro10 ] ++
this is very interesting Ian as this is the first time i heard such sect of Christianity. tell me..do you guys also use the Bible ? ( forgive me if this question sounds offensively stupid : ) )

Well, first, yes, we do "use" the bible, but we are also very open to the scriptures that the early catholics decided were unworthy, and we are not oppposed to more modern forms of evangelicalism.

Second, of course not, I said that I would welcome any questions, and I do. And belive me, I've much more offensive questions posed to me about it.

 

[aressandro10]

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


Well, first, yes, we do "use" the bible, but we are also very open to the scriptures that the early catholics decided were unworthy, and we are not oppposed to more modern forms of evangelicalism.

Second, of course not, I said that I would welcome any questions, and I do. And belive me, I've much more offensive questions posed to me about it.

great... thanks for that. :thumb:


as i never heard of this faith it mite be somewhat underground.. do it actuallly largely followed in europe?

what is evangelicalism?

recently i saw this movie Stigmata... i know we dont have to trust things in movies but some of the fact make me thinking and curious. And your explanation actually remind me some of that questions.. can u elaborate on the scriptures u mentioned ? anything interesting that make early catholics reject it?

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by aressandro10 ] ++
great... thanks for that. :thumb:

No problem.

++ [ originally posted by aressandro10 ] ++
as i never heard of this faith it mite be somewhat underground.. do it actuallly largely followed in europe?

Well, it is a small religion overall, but the bulk of the Society lives in the US with a small number in England and Scotland. I am one of only a very small number outside that.

++ [ originally posted by aressandro10 ] ++
what is evangelicalism?

It's writing scripture, the Society is open to more modern scriptures.

++ [ originally posted by aressandro10 ] ++
recently i saw this movie Stigmata... i know we dont have to trust things in movies but some of the fact make me thinking and curious. And your explanation actually remind me some of that questions.. can u elaborate on the scriptures u mentioned ? anything interesting that make early catholics reject it?

Well, the early Catholics were very paranoid about certain things, so they had to keep thier numbers relatively few, and then later on they had to weed out the "fake" scriptures fromt he real ones, and they did a lot of editting for dogmatic and propaganda purposes.

 

[aressandro10]

u say that u r a sect of christianity, does that makes u also consider Jesus as God ?

have u seen any of scriptures u mentioned? tell me some of the things they say. i heard they were written in ancient language.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by aressandro10 ] ++
u say that u r a sect of christianity, does that makes u also consider Jesus as God ?

That's hard to answer. We believe that Jesus was the son of god sent to save us. But, in the mid 1800's there was a split in the Society between those who believed in a more practical and scientific explaination of Jesus' life and those who followed scripture in a more formal way. This is not to say that they lot their faith, but rather that they examined it with the same scrutiny that they examine their lives.

++ [ originally posted by aressandro10 ] ++
have u seen any of scriptures u mentioned? tell me some of the things they say. i heard they were written in ancient language.

Some of them are veyr easy to find, like the Gospel ot Timothy, others are more difficult, and yes some are still being translated from ancient scrolls.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by [LAC] ] ++
Gray I never really understood the verse in Luke. I somehow dont think he meant we should go around carrying our crosses. At that time nobody associated Christ with the cross. What do you understand from that verse?

If you read my post above, u'll notice that I said this is not to be taken literlally IMO. As correctly pointed out, this probably meant that we are to take up our own sufferings and difficulties in life...

my main point in quoting this verse was that Jesus, being God, was aware of his imminent death, and he knew that he would die upon a cross, and that this would be his own personal difficulty in life, and even asked that it might be taken from Him, if it was the will of God the Father.

fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will. - Matthew 26:39

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++

Have you ever seen a picture of mohammed? I bet you haven't, because in Islam, idol worship, especially of mohammed is strictly forbidden.

No, you're right, I haven't seen a picture of mohammed. Now i don't know everything about Islam, but the reason why they don't worship an image of mohammed is because they don't worship him at all. Mohammed was simply their chosen representative on earth, their Prophet. They do not worship him personally, as Mohammed is their messenger to God, or Allah. They believe that God alone is to be worshipped, not any human being.

Even so, what are you trying to prove by saying that muslims don't worship mohammed?

In my religion, we believe that the word of god is his word and our word to share with each other as we may be guided. God's word is not to be played with to suit our purposes so that we can identify ourselves.

When did I play with God's Word to suit myself?

We do not need to symbolise our faith, we do not need to remind ourselves except that we gather together once a week, once per month, and once per year to quietly reflect and this is the only reminder we need. My cross is the Society, my cross is every action that I take in daily life.

I don't need to symbolise my faith either, it's not a 'requirement', but I feel that it helps to remind myself of the sacrifice that Christ made, and who I stand for and represent in my daily life. I think it's great that you gather with others in the name of God,

"Where two or three come together in my name, there I am with them" - Matthew 18:20

and this is an important part of my Christian life too. I respect that your society chooses to reflect quietly, and if that is your reflection upon God, then great. But is it wrong to constantly remind yourself of God's presence and the sacrifice he made? I'll use the wedding ring example again: maybe your husband/wife won't mind if you don't wear a ring to symbolise the marriage and vows that you've made, because the ring isn't what makes the marriage, and the marriage can survive without rings or symbols,

but i don't think that's a reason why it would be wrong in the eyes of your partner to always wear a ring.

Is wearing a wedding ring idol worship before God, since it serves as a symbol of your marriage to another person? We've talked about religious symbols being used to remind ourselves of God, but do your beliefs about these things extend to other things such as marriage life?

 

[Layce Erayce]

gray chill out man. i was born into a catholic family who became evangelical and i was agnostic and still kinda am....but im not against the bible.

you sound kinda hostile...

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
If you read my post above, u'll notice that I said this is not to be taken literlally IMO. As correctly pointed out, this probably meant that we are to take up our own sufferings and difficulties in life...

my main point in quoting this verse was that Jesus, being God, was aware of his imminent death, and he knew that he would die upon a cross, and that this would be his own personal difficulty in life, and even asked that it might be taken from Him, if it was the will of God the Father.

I don't see how that makes an exemption of a metal cross around the neck.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
No, you're right, I haven't seen a picture of mohammed. Now i don't know everything about Islam, but the reason why they don't worship an image of mohammed is because they don't worship him at all. Mohammed was simply their chosen representative on earth, their Prophet. They do not worship him personally, as Mohammed is their messenger to God, or Allah. They believe that God alone is to be worshipped, not any human being.

Even so, what are you trying to prove by saying that muslims don't worship mohammed?

Idol worship is forbidden in christianity in the same way that it is in Islam. In the smae way that Mohammed was just a messenger, the cross was just a device, a metaphor.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
When did I play with God's Word to suit myself?

I never said that you did, I would not be so presumtuous. All I meant was that there are those who twist the word of god to suit their own purposes and speak that word in such a way as to be deceitful.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
I don't need to symbolise my faith either, it's not a 'requirement', but I feel that it helps to remind myself of the sacrifice that Christ made, and who I stand for and represent in my daily life. I think it's great that you gather with others in the name of God,

Lovely then.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
and this is an important part of my Christian life too. I respect that your society chooses to reflect quietly, and if that is your reflection upon God, then great. But is it wrong to constantly remind yourself of God's presence and the sacrifice he made? I'll use the wedding ring example again: maybe your husband/wife won't mind if you don't wear a ring to symbolise the marriage and vows that you've made, because the ring isn't what makes the marriage, and the marriage can survive without rings or symbols,

but i don't think that's a reason why it would be wrong in the eyes of your partner to always wear a ring.

Is wearing a wedding ring idol worship before God, since it serves as a symbol of your marriage to another person? We've talked about religious symbols being used to remind ourselves of God, but do your beliefs about these things extend to other things such as marriage life?

Well, to be straight with you, most Friends do not wear wedding bands, nor do many wear jewellry on a regular basis. There are some who still do not wear elaborate patterns on their clothing. But, personally, there are things in my life that I value more than my religion, and that is where I stray from the path...

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by [LAC] ] ++
gray chill out man. i was born into a catholic family who became evangelical and i was agnostic and still kinda am....but im not against the bible.

you sound kinda hostile...

No, no, Lac, he's not being hostile at all. We are just using our difference about idol worship as a way to examine the differences (and similarities) between our religions.

 

[Zlatan]

Like I said, religion isnt worth it...

 

[Layce Erayce]

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


No, no, Lac, he's not being hostile at all. We are just using our difference about idol worship as a way to examine the differences (and similarities) between our religions.

sorry then. sorry gray. misread the signals....*shoves head in sand*

 

[Layce Erayce]

++ [ originally posted by G_O_A_T ] ++
Like I said, religion isnt worth it...

by god man what if....

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by [LAC] ] ++
gray chill out man. i was born into a catholic family who became evangelical and i was agnostic and still kinda am....but im not against the bible.

you sound kinda hostile...

Sorry if i sounded hostile, and I'm glad Ian hasn't taken it this way...

well i'm off to uni soon, but i'm enjoying this disc.

 

[aressandro10]

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


That's hard to answer. We believe that Jesus was the son of god sent to save us. But, in the mid 1800's there was a split in the Society between those who believed in a more practical and scientific explaination of Jesus' life and those who followed scripture in a more formal way. This is not to say that they lot their faith, but rather that they examined it with the same scrutiny that they examine their lives.

In Islam, we believes that Jesus is not son of God as God do not born nor he was borned. we belive he just a Prophet. Just like Muhammad. Only that muhammad is the last prophet so we are all bide under him.

Some of them are veyr easy to find, like the Gospel ot Timothy, others are more difficult, and yes some are still being translated from ancient scrolls.

have you heard the Gospel of Thomas? what does it says there?