[CL] Champions League 2015/2016 (14 Viewers)

[Raz]

So let's say a player was the best throughout the year, then for some reason he did not perform in a 5-6 game major event that year, then you have another player who was good, but nowhere near the first player for 11 months of the year, but he performed a lot better than the first player in the major tournament(1 month), who would you give the award to?

The only player who was close or around the same level as Messi during the year was Ronaldo, had Ronaldo played a good WC, I'd have told you he deserved the award for sure. But nobody else was and has ever been close to the level of performance those two have reached over the past 5-6 years.

WC is not just some event. It's the biggest stage, and if you don't perform there? Guess what Snejder and Xavi did perform. Say what you want but stats of Messi and Ronaldo in spanish league are inflated. 7-0 and 89 minutes in the match they are still tryingto demolish their opponents. He couldn't get thsoe numbers in any other league or any other team.

 

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[Fred]

WC is not just some event. It's the biggest stage, and if you don't perform there? Guess what Snejder and Xavi did perform. Say what you want but stats of Messi and Ronaldo in spanish league are inflated. 7-0 and 89 minutes in the match they are still tryingto demolish their opponents. He couldn't get thsoe numbers in any other league or any other team.

How about their stats in the CL, they follow almost the exact same pattern as their stats in the Liga. Then again, there are several very good players that played in the Liga the past few years, why is it only Messi and Ronaldo that have such stats?

 

[Osman]

WC is not just some event. It's the biggest stage, and if you don't perform there? Guess what Snejder and Xavi did perform. Say what you want but stats of Messi and Ronaldo in spanish league are inflated. 7-0 and 89 minutes in the match they are still tryingto demolish their opponents. He couldn't get thsoe numbers in any other league or any other team.

You do know the WC has its own individual award? Messi and Ronaldo should lose the award to players who do better in WC AND rest of the year, not just that one tourno. And frankly, they do better then them in that tourno because they play for better teams, no other reason.

 

[Raz]

How about their stats in the CL, they follow almost the exact same pattern as their stats in the Liga. Then again, there are several very good players that played in the Liga the past few years, why is it only Messi and Ronaldo that have such stats?

In barca, when Xavi and Iniesta was in their prime any WC attacker would have had those stats. Today Neymar has so far those stats and if he would be the main man he would have them, same with suarez. Ibra had those stats too (similar), but he was limited because of messi.

As for ronaldo, he did perform everywhere, so maybe he's just better then messi. Same with CL only ronaldo numbers were insane 17 goals, messi has one season 14 which is impressibe and constantly around 10-11 goals a season which is impressive too. But such numbers 9-11 goals are not that uncomon for top CL scorer.

Watched match few weeks back where barca were winning by three or four, two man up because of two reds and still at 90+ minutes they were trying to score like crazy. Tell me that this is not the only place where it's possible to get messi these numbers 80 or so goals a season?

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You do know the WC has its own individual award? Messi and Ronaldo should lose the award to players who do better in WC AND rest of the year, not just that one tourno. And frankly, they do better then them in that tourno because they play for better teams, no other reason.

Yes I know, and they don't win them.

I'm not arguing that they are not the best, but for one season where inter won cl and spain won wc messi definitely wasn't the best on the planet and not the most influential. But under current system it just doesn't matter at all.

 

[napoleonic]

when allegri isn't even nominated for coach of the year you know the entire award is a joke.

 

[Xperd]

How about their stats in the CL, they follow almost the exact same pattern as their stats in the Liga. Then again, there are several very good players that played in the Liga the past few years, why is it only Messi and Ronaldo that have such stats?

Did Cristiano deserve to be on the podium this yr btw ?

 

[Osman]

In barca, when Xavi and Iniesta was in their prime any WC attacker would have had those stats. Today Neymar has so far those stats and if he would be the main man he would have them, same with suarez. Ibra had those stats too (similar), but he was limited because of messi.

As for ronaldo, he did perform everywhere, so maybe he's just better then messi. Same with CL only ronaldo numbers were insane 17 goals, messi has one season 14 which is impressibe and constantly around 10-11 goals a season which is impressive too. But such numbers 9-11 goals are not that uncomon for top CL scorer.

Watched match few weeks back where barca were winning by three or four, two man up because of two reds and still at 90+ minutes they were trying to score like crazy. Tell me that this is not the only place where it's possible to get messi these numbers 80 or so goals a season?

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Yes I know, and they don't win them.

I'm not arguing that they are not the best, but for one season where inter won cl and spain won wc messi definitely wasn't the best on the planet and not the most influential. But under current system it just doesn't matter at all.

David Villa, Henry, Ronaldinho and Eto'o could not score those numbers with same players behind them (and defenitely Ibra did not, 16 in league if I recall, and who the fvck would hold against Barca they preferred to accomodate the superior player then the one that didnt fit in with their football philosphy?). Neymar is NOT scoring those numbers yet, he had 26 last season, he has been great this season far, raised his level, but Messi and Ronaldo level is 50-60 in full year (they reached 70 once I think). He has a while until he does that 1 season, let alone for long time as they have. Their level is = You score 46-47 goals only, not win title, and you are considered to flopped for the season.


Everyone does NOT score over 10 goals a year in CL, only consistent CL scorer used to be Raul and he didnt do it this much. Ronaldo played in Man U, not everywhere. Messi faced same opponents he did in CL every time and owned them. Why is it so hard to acknowledge the supremacy he has shown so consistently? Also has been the most assister same time he has been the best scorer.



If its the only place to score that much, why havent anyone else but them done it? Every other top attacker in that league in recent time score the same average they do elsewhere,

 

[Ocelot]

If you're not interested in who is individually the best player in the world, then ya it would be a meaningless award.

But then again, how do you compare a striker with a goalkeeper, or a midfielder with a defender?

Exactly, that's why it's ultimately meaningless.

 

[Raz]

Have you just read the first sentence? Where did I say or not acknoledge that they are the best two players for the past who knows how many years. My gripe with the current system is that even though that one 2010 year where it was Xavi or Snejder that were the best in a whole year. But with the current system where trinidad and tabad captain or whatever their country name is or captains of some niger country vote for the best player no one can win award apart from messi or ronaldo current day.

 

[napoleonic]

David Villa, Henry, Ronaldinho and Eto'o could not score those numbers with same players behind them (and defenitely Ibra did not, 16 in league if I recall, and who the fvck would hold against Barca they preferred to accomodate the superior player then the one that didnt fit in with their football philosphy?). Neymar is NOT scoring those numbers yet, he had 26 last season, he has been great this season far, raised his level, but Messi and Ronaldo level is 50-60 in full year (they reached 70 once I think). He has a while until he does that 1 season, let alone for long time as they have. Their level is = You score 46-47 goals only, not win title, and you are considered to flopped for the season.


Everyone does NOT score over 10 goals a year in CL, only consistent CL scorer used to be Raul and he didnt do it this much. Ronaldo played in Man U, not everywhere. Messi faced same opponents he did in CL every time and owned them. Why is it so hard to acknowledge the supremacy he has shown so consistently? Also has been the most assister same time he has been the best scorer.



If its the only place to score that much, why havent anyone else but them done it? Every other top attacker in that league in recent time score the same average they do elsewhere,

but isn't it downright laughable that for all their supposed ultimate supremacy never seen before in the history of football, neither of both has won even copa america or euro yet?

 

[Vialli_92]

Real Madrid have built their entire team around Ronaldo to score those goals. He has so many chances per game and he takes most of them.

Messi last season I can't explain it, he was a playmaker and a fucking goal scoring machine scoring all kinds of goals.

Too much emphasis is put on goals when a lot of goals can be meaningless. I would say 50% of their goals are largely down to stat padding. Ronaldo this season has scored a lot of meaningless goals I'm not sure about Messi though.

 

[Seven]

Messi won it in 2010 because he was the best player in the world, not because he was the greatest talent.

For the past 5-6 years no player has reached the level of performance of Messi and Ronaldo. When people bring in players like Sneider, Robben, Ribery and whomever else in the comparison, the mistake many people make is that they compare Messi and Ronaldo to themselves first and then they compare them to other players. So for example, the 2009 -2010 season wasn't Ronaldo's best, people rightfully pointed that out, but then made the mistake of using that to say that Sneider performed better(Sneider probably had his best ever season then). The problem with this kind of comparison is that you're holding Ronaldo to a much higher standard than Sneider, and then using that against Ronaldo. To illustrate: you're comparing Ronaldo's level of performance against his usual level of performance(The higher standard), and then comparing Sneider to his usual level of performance (The lower standard), and because Sneider scores better on his standard you make the mistake of saying he had a better season than Ronaldo, when in reality Ronaldo's worst season in 6 years was individually better than Sneider's best season ever.

Fact of the matter is that the Ballon D'Or is an individual award, that recognizes the best players in the world, it is in effect a measure of individual performance. You could say that Ronaldo didn't win anything in 2010 while Sneider won everything that year, but that's immaterial if Ronaldo's individual performances were a lot better but he was let down by his team. The fact is, Ronaldo and Messi have been a level above the rest for the past 5-6 years, and they rightfully have always been #1 and #2 in the rankings.

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The real problem is people always want to sound smart. And they do so by stating outrageous things, which make them look more intelligent than others. Pundits in particular had a nasty habit of referring to Xavi as the real heart of Barca. At one point everyone was cumming over Iniesta too. And while they are most definitely decent players, the truth is it is very easy to see which Barcelona player is best.

 

[Zacheryah]

Messi won it in 2010 because he was the best player in the world, not because he was the greatest talent.

For the past 5-6 years no player has reached the level of performance of Messi and Ronaldo. When people bring in players like Sneider, Robben, Ribery and whomever else in the comparison, the mistake many people make is that they compare Messi and Ronaldo to themselves first and then they compare them to other players. So for example, the 2009 -2010 season wasn't Ronaldo's best, people rightfully pointed that out, but then made the mistake of using that to say that Sneider performed better(Sneider probably had his best ever season then). The problem with this kind of comparison is that you're holding Ronaldo to a much higher standard than Sneider, and then using that against Ronaldo. To illustrate: you're comparing Ronaldo's level of performance against his usual level of performance(The higher standard), and then comparing Sneider to his usual level of performance (The lower standard), and because Sneider scores better on his standard you make the mistake of saying he had a better season than Ronaldo, when in reality Ronaldo's worst season in 6 years was individually better than Sneider's best season ever.

Fact of the matter is that the Ballon D'Or is an individual award, that recognizes the best players in the world, it is in effect a measure of individual performance. You could say that Ronaldo didn't win anything in 2010 while Sneider won everything that year, but that's immaterial if Ronaldo's individual performances were a lot better but he was let down by his team. The fact is, Ronaldo and Messi have been a level above the rest for the past 5-6 years, and they rightfully have always been #1 and #2 in the rankings.

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So if someone is world class all season long, and is levels above all other players for 40+ matches, you wouldn't consider him the best player in the world if he was neutralized in 2-3 games? That doesn't seem fair, I would think consistency throughout they year would be more important.

Sorry, no.

2010 was mostly known to be somewhat the pinnacle of lack of organisation and defence. He scored alot of goals, both in spain and CL. Untill they met Inter, in wich he completely chocked both games.
At the world cup, he was just bad. Not that Iniesta and Xavi behind him. Against germany, again the first organised team they met, he was nowhere and argentina got a 0-4.

Meanwhile, Xavi and Iniesta were excellent all season, where giving Inter a very hard time in the semi's setting up more then enough chances to get that second goal.
With spain, tore trough the opposition and got the title.


The performance of Xavi and Iniesta, were better then messi who scored a record amount of goals, but was abscent when it mattered the most. The other two didnt. Ergo both should have ended above Messi.

When nedved won it, Zidane and ronaldo would have won it instead by todays standards

 

[Vlad]

Sorry, no.

2010 was mostly known to be somewhat the pinnacle of lack of organisation and defence. He scored alot of goals, both in spain and CL. Untill they met Inter, in wich he completely chocked both games.
At the world cup, he was just bad. Not that Iniesta and Xavi behind him. Against germany, again the first organised team they met, he was nowhere and argentina got a 0-4.

Meanwhile, Xavi and Iniesta were excellent all season, where giving Inter a very hard time in the semi's setting up more then enough chances to get that second goal.
With spain, tore trough the opposition and got the title.


The performance of Xavi and Iniesta, were better then messi who scored a record amount of goals, but was abscent when it mattered the most. The other two didnt. Ergo both should have ended above Messi.

When nedved won it, Zidane and ronaldo would have won it instead by todays standards

 

[MikeM]

There's so much wrong with evaluating these players just by goals and assists. First of all, they score a lot of penalties. If you take Ronaldo and Messi's penalties and give them to Bale and Suarez, the numbers already look different. Messi misses a quarter of his penalties so if you take those misses plus his conversions and give them to Suarez and Neymar, already you see the picture change a bit.

Then you have the league and although Messi and Ronaldo usually earn their goals, their numbers become simply outrageous when games are already decided. It's a different type of football where you risk nothing and gain everything when the game is already decided. They barely get tackled when the game is tight but when it's over it's just like a buffet. Why not keep them out for 90 minutes when there is no risk of injury? It's a different game from what it used to be in that sense.

Neither Messi or Ronaldo contribute anything to the team when the ball is not recovered for them or is not near them. Every time they attack they are at maximum energy.

Now they might still be the best 2 players in the world but I'm usually left upset that these things aren't acknowledged and more midfielders aren't drawn into the discussion. If you just look at the basic facts of the sport, midfielders are going to contribute more right off the bat because of the demands of the position (in terms of running, defending, attacking).

There were times during the height of Vidal where you could not convince me he was not an insanely valuable footballer. Literally running as much as two men (he would routinely close a man down, force him to make a sideways pass, and then sprint to close that man down). He was scoring and assisting. The point is he was reliant on nothing and no one. He could just impose his will and take the ball. Even when Messi or Ronaldo are at their peak, they can still be stopped if you cut off their service.

Again, they might still be the best 2 players of the last few years but they're touted as gods and they're simply not.

Edit: Just to show my point about penalties and goals:

Last year Suarez had 16 goals in 25 starts. 0 penalties.
Messi had 43 goals in 37 starts. 5 penalties. 4 misses (I think).

If all you do is take Messi's penalty misses and conversions and give them to Suarez the numbers are different.

Suarez 25 goals in 25 starts. 14 assists
Messi 38 goals in 37 starts. 18 assists

So they become similar quite easily. In fact, you could say Suarez produced more per game.

 

[Zacheryah]

ALso, meanwhile Yaya toure got 14 votes. most of those from africa

nuff said.

 

[swag]

but isn't it downright laughable that for all their supposed ultimate supremacy never seen before in the history of football, neither of both has won even copa america or euro yet?

I don't think it's laughable at all. I think for once it's realistic. Football is a team sport.

It's kind of b.s. that a guy like Ronaldo has to rely on Hugo Almeida to make him a legend while the likes of Pele had Garrincha to partner with.

ALso, meanwhile Yaya toure got 14 votes. most of those from africa

nuff said.

Aubameyang was better.

 

[Zacheryah]

Portugal truely chocked it when they had the chance tho


2012, best playing team in the tournament, Ronaldo at his best ever season, fresh from that undeserved CL exit. They were damaging spain all over and kept missing and missing clearcut chances. Then fucked up with the penalties.

Kinda felt sorry really much for ronaldo then.He had been so good, teammates wastefull, and then spain goes trough on undeserved penalties.

 

[swag]

Portugal truely chocked it when they had the chance tho


2012, best playing team in the tournament, Ronaldo at his best ever season, fresh from that undeserved CL exit. They were damaging spain all over and kept missing and missing clearcut chances. Then fucked up with the penalties.

Kinda felt sorry really much for ronaldo then.He had been so good, teammates wastefull, and then spain goes trough on undeserved penalties.

There's another part of the b.s. behind "Legends": penalty shootouts are used to separate greatness from "almost".

 

[napoleonic]

I don't think it's laughable at all. I think for once it's realistic. Football is a team sport.

It's kind of b.s. that a guy like Ronaldo has to rely on Hugo Almeida to make him a legend while the likes of Pele had Garrincha to partner with.



Aubameyang was better.

or I can say that perhaps 50% of those ballon d'ors belong to barca and madrid as well rather than pure the individuals? many legends in the past won those titles with huge almeida level of team mates too.