[CL] Bordeaux 2-0 Juventus, Nov 25th, 2009 (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter JCK
- Start date
You do make good points, I am not totally against you. My reservation is that 4-2-3-1 requires all 3 Camo, Diego, and Giovinco to be ready to play. And in case one of them is not there the formation is more or less paralyzed especially if this one is Camoranesi.
I did not oppose the formation at all. What I was trying to say if Del Piero is fit to play, it is not wise to play 4-2-3-1 at all. I feel we can play much better with two front strikers in Amauri/Trez/Iaq + Del/Gio .. The team is having serious trouble executing the 4-2-3-1 well. The midfield is always a mess and most of that is due to the DMs. Their poor passing ability is costing us a lot.
Note I would like to add: although I wasn't a big fan of Marchionni I still think we should have kept him as a Camoranesi sub.
BTW: +ve rep for the discussion quality.
I did not oppose the formation at all. What I was trying to say if Del Piero is fit to play, it is not wise to play 4-2-3-1 at all. I feel we can play much better with two front strikers in Amauri/Trez/Iaq + Del/Gio .. The team is having serious trouble executing the 4-2-3-1 well. The midfield is always a mess and most of that is due to the DMs. Their poor passing ability is costing us a lot.
Note I would like to add: although I wasn't a big fan of Marchionni I still think we should have kept him as a Camoranesi sub.
BTW: +ve rep for the discussion quality.
Cheers, ZAF...I am enjoying your input also. Quality debate from folks who clearly care about the club and are wanting to suggest solutions, not solely sadness and grief.
And I agree...that the 3 needs to ALL be in decent form, especially Gio and Camo, on the flanks. Lets say above all others, Camo, as behind him is by far our weaker defensive position. As you say, when Camo is invisible or in poor form, we literally give away the whole right flank.
I would be happy to see us adopting 2 in attack. Which would have to be DP and Trez.
Diego MUST play, he has the finest first touch of all our players. Momo and Marchisio and Camo I would also demand to start.
Only two of the DMs can play. Melo/Momo/Marchisio. Momo is the only constant definite, because he is a monster...
How can we fit both Diego and Camo into a formation with two up front?
the only way is the diamond. Marchiso is more than capable of playing on the left of a midfield diamond, and has few fewer poor games than the present Melo.
I guess I agree, its the only thing left to try. I also think that Marchisio is better at holding a position than ALL of the other DMS. His all round game is tardelli like, not Momo like.
And I agree...that the 3 needs to ALL be in decent form, especially Gio and Camo, on the flanks. Lets say above all others, Camo, as behind him is by far our weaker defensive position. As you say, when Camo is invisible or in poor form, we literally give away the whole right flank.
I would be happy to see us adopting 2 in attack. Which would have to be DP and Trez.
Diego MUST play, he has the finest first touch of all our players. Momo and Marchisio and Camo I would also demand to start.
Only two of the DMs can play. Melo/Momo/Marchisio. Momo is the only constant definite, because he is a monster...
How can we fit both Diego and Camo into a formation with two up front?
the only way is the diamond. Marchiso is more than capable of playing on the left of a midfield diamond, and has few fewer poor games than the present Melo.
I guess I agree, its the only thing left to try. I also think that Marchisio is better at holding a position than ALL of the other DMS. His all round game is tardelli like, not Momo like.
the diamond could work
its worth a try definetly, kinda alla chelsea but with shitter full backs
---------melo/poulsen---------
--momo------camo/claudio---
------------diego----------------
----del piero/iaq--amauri/trez
it could work, just need to gel, diego wont be too isolated he just needs help when going forward, in reality we havent used on formation long enough to see how it goes when everyone gets properly used to it.
its worth a try definetly, kinda alla chelsea but with shitter full backs
---------melo/poulsen---------
--momo------camo/claudio---
------------diego----------------
----del piero/iaq--amauri/trez
it could work, just need to gel, diego wont be too isolated he just needs help when going forward, in reality we havent used on formation long enough to see how it goes when everyone gets properly used to it.
@ this game. Just... 
If Momo stays in front of the defense then we're losing the quality that makes him different and better than the others.
He doesn't have the discipline nor the characteristics to play in front of the defense only. His main quality is the capability to be everywhere and cover everything. To pop up where you don't expect him and win the ball or stop an attack.
Just watch us play and how static we are. Without Momo being the only lively player in the midfield, most of the time we'll have 0 options to pass to.
Such a shame that his passing is bad, because if he was good there, he'd have been the best DM in the world. But if you take away his characteristic that makes him so special, then you'll get a pretty ordinary player who sits in front of the defense.
It's not just a coincidence or bad coaching. The managers who don't play him in front of the defense (Benitez, Ranieri, Ferrara) all know what's Momo's main strength and they're using it. Far away from our goal, Momo feels the freedom to do what he does the best. To make fouls, to do risky tackles that many times work but sometimes don't.
Closer to our goal he won't be able to do any of that without the risk of getting many cards or giving away dangerous free kicks. Plus, we'll be counter attacked, or just attacked, much more without him stopping the opponents' attacks in midfield already.
With his radius of movement, it will be a crime to play him so deep in front of our defense.
He doesn't have the discipline nor the characteristics to play in front of the defense only. His main quality is the capability to be everywhere and cover everything. To pop up where you don't expect him and win the ball or stop an attack.
Just watch us play and how static we are. Without Momo being the only lively player in the midfield, most of the time we'll have 0 options to pass to.
Such a shame that his passing is bad, because if he was good there, he'd have been the best DM in the world. But if you take away his characteristic that makes him so special, then you'll get a pretty ordinary player who sits in front of the defense.
It's not just a coincidence or bad coaching. The managers who don't play him in front of the defense (Benitez, Ranieri, Ferrara) all know what's Momo's main strength and they're using it. Far away from our goal, Momo feels the freedom to do what he does the best. To make fouls, to do risky tackles that many times work but sometimes don't.
Closer to our goal he won't be able to do any of that without the risk of getting many cards or giving away dangerous free kicks. Plus, we'll be counter attacked, or just attacked, much more without him stopping the opponents' attacks in midfield already.
With his radius of movement, it will be a crime to play him so deep in front of our defense.
Why are you just ignoring Poulsen as if he doesnt exist, when he plays the majority of our games? Then the debate is just nonsense, we all know he is going to play many more games this season.
If you just pretend some players are not there because you dont like them, you may aswell play some Football Manager.
If you just pretend some players are not there because you dont like them, you may aswell play some Football Manager.
it is nice to read that some people here have a few thoughts about the tactics and possible solutions.
i would like to compare the 4-2-3-1 with the 4-4-2 of last season.
lets not watch the defense, because its the same. just the transition from defending to attacking. last year the two defensive midfielders had only two options to play to and that were the left and the right wing (nedved and camo/marchionni) and it worked (the transition into attack). when we were playing deep we had in fact a 4-2-3-1 because del piero would fall deep to receive passes in midfield (so taking diegos position in the 4-2-3-1 but a bit further to the striker). i think the difference is not that big, but the 3 attacking midfielders especially the ones on the outside do interpret their role to static.
if we look at who is going to be marked be who in this scenario it will probably be, that the opponents right fullback is marking gio, the defensive midfielder is marking diego and the leftback is marking camo so they have all our attacking players marked PLUS amauri still plays against TWO centrebacks... not a good situation in regards of having a defensive midfielder search for a pass receiver.
so i gave you the problem, now you solve it
remember, it is often enough for an opponent to mark someone by running close to him, to prevent him from being passed to, regardless of the marker actually being able to take the ball of the pass receiver when he gets it.
so melo and sissoko have the ball and no one is UNMARKED.
i am no dr. of tactics but i have a suggestion. if the players (just talking about the attacking 3 midfielders) do shift their position to the right or the left (while we attack) the marker will just track our players and stay with him. diego would go to the half right position the the defensive midfielder would just go with him.
but what if camo and gio completely switched sides (not 1 to 1 just gio right and camo left). i mean the ball is at caceres feet and gio just moves to the right (even right of diego) to give another short pass option other then camo.
there are two scenarios that can arise from that.
A) the right fullback of them completely tracks gios run and goes over to our right side thus leaving a huge gap/space for grosso. ideal position to play a side-changing cross where grosso will have enough space to control the ball even if it is not perfectly played.
---------------
B) the right fullback of em thinks he has to mark the space/room and not the man leaving giovinco on our right hand side without an opponent and being an easy pass receiver.
this is not the masterplan, but a reasonable way to mess up with static or space marking and will only work if the change of position is fast enough, so that their midfielders do not immediately have the chance to take over the man (mark gio when he runs over)
i would like to compare the 4-2-3-1 with the 4-4-2 of last season.
lets not watch the defense, because its the same. just the transition from defending to attacking. last year the two defensive midfielders had only two options to play to and that were the left and the right wing (nedved and camo/marchionni) and it worked (the transition into attack). when we were playing deep we had in fact a 4-2-3-1 because del piero would fall deep to receive passes in midfield (so taking diegos position in the 4-2-3-1 but a bit further to the striker). i think the difference is not that big, but the 3 attacking midfielders especially the ones on the outside do interpret their role to static.
if we look at who is going to be marked be who in this scenario it will probably be, that the opponents right fullback is marking gio, the defensive midfielder is marking diego and the leftback is marking camo so they have all our attacking players marked PLUS amauri still plays against TWO centrebacks... not a good situation in regards of having a defensive midfielder search for a pass receiver.
so i gave you the problem, now you solve it
remember, it is often enough for an opponent to mark someone by running close to him, to prevent him from being passed to, regardless of the marker actually being able to take the ball of the pass receiver when he gets it.
so melo and sissoko have the ball and no one is UNMARKED.
i am no dr. of tactics but i have a suggestion. if the players (just talking about the attacking 3 midfielders) do shift their position to the right or the left (while we attack) the marker will just track our players and stay with him. diego would go to the half right position the the defensive midfielder would just go with him.
but what if camo and gio completely switched sides (not 1 to 1 just gio right and camo left). i mean the ball is at caceres feet and gio just moves to the right (even right of diego) to give another short pass option other then camo.
there are two scenarios that can arise from that.
A) the right fullback of them completely tracks gios run and goes over to our right side thus leaving a huge gap/space for grosso. ideal position to play a side-changing cross where grosso will have enough space to control the ball even if it is not perfectly played.
---------------
B) the right fullback of em thinks he has to mark the space/room and not the man leaving giovinco on our right hand side without an opponent and being an easy pass receiver.
this is not the masterplan, but a reasonable way to mess up with static or space marking and will only work if the change of position is fast enough, so that their midfielders do not immediately have the chance to take over the man (mark gio when he runs over)
movement is the key in every formation if we're speaking about attacking, especially in these years when the football practiced by barca or arsenal can't let you go take a pee. Anyways i agree with your 3rd and 4th paragraph...for some games i'm always seeing amauri there isolated, our wings simply blocked, diego between the lines lost if he isn't coming at the half of the field to get a pass. And sissoko and melo proved themself to not be able to take our game from defence to offence. And another thing, caceres/zdenek or grosso don't come up the field when we're attacking, they are rarely doing a one two with diego or one of the dm's, so practically our team is blocked everytime we meet a team that defends with 2 lines/protects a lead.
the 4-2-3-1 is not going to work forever, its best not to adjust to it now as once we lose on of the 3 attacking mids were f'ed we dont have the depth to play it simple, we should exploit our depth in the center of mid rather than the attacking mids.
thats how i see it anyway. the diamond could be a good option.
thats how i see it anyway. the diamond could be a good option.