Charlie Hebdo massacre - 2015-Jan-07 (1 Viewer)

[Maddy]

And yet the message of forgiveness on the cover of Charlie Hebdo speaks of the exact opposite. This, Seven, is what makes that powerful. They have a cache and credibility. I don't want to glorify Charlie Hedbo as any more than a rag of sophomoric humor, but they are thrust in a position of immense clout on the topic of freedom of speech right now. For them to come out and promote forgiveness is extremely potent.

Think of the credibility and cachet that Nelson Mandela had after he had been freed from prison and saw Apartheid fall. When he among anyone could have struck the justification for revenge -- resulting in what South Africans expected to be a bloody racial massacre -- he had the moral authority to instead say that it was time to forgive and move forward. What right do you have to take offense if Nelson f*ing Mandela can get over it?

That stroke alone literally saved perhaps millions of lives and so much potential misery.

We simply cannot afford not to seek forgiveness, reconciliation and co-existence.

Times have changed. Globalisation is inevitable and we must accept that peacefully.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, I'm glad you found your way. Maybe we'll get to teach together someday shoulda mades BIG bucks first though

As for me what would make me happy is simple, peace. Just that. And if I can't get it, then I probably be selfish enough to buy a little patch of land, get a donkey, a cow, chickens, 3 dogs and lots of seeds (ganja seeds too) and isolate myself with nature and 1 or 2 other individual.

Dat ebony and ivory classroom

We underestimate the importance of peace. In the end all we want is to bring up our kids in peace, have the ability to support them and give them best possible start to life. That wish unites every single person on this planet and that is something we should have in mind.

- - - Updated - - -

He was big man, huge! Colossal! And a father figure to all Africans. Read up on Thomas Sankara @Maddy too, one of my personal hero's a big man, that unfortunately wasn't as blessed as Uncle Mandela.

I'll look into him

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Fr3sh]

I'm tired of hearing it's the West's fault (not saying that you are saying it, but some members have). So, by your argument:

-Middle East made money by slave trade
-Middle East made money by conquering parts of Europe and their own expansion
-Middle East made money by selling oil & dealing with the West

It's also interesting, if I understand your argument correctly, which I may very well not, that by saying "The arabs ruled over half of Europe when in their full glory, Africa, ran riot all over Asia, these people are historic people, they've accomplished amazing things" you are giving positive recognition for expansion, yet smash France and western countries for it?

I recongnize that the French and the other colonial powers had a lot of military prowess, and genie. It does take great minds and technologies to have accomplished such a deed, but the Europeans have done it half way, they haven't commited all on their own. They've came to a weakened Africa when they went in for their landgrabs, not exactly the same.

Main reason I had somewhat of a positive vibe in my speech there, is because of a clear cut bias that I am acknowledging, I am from a muslim family, raised in a muslim household, my ancestors (most likely not direct, figure of speech) have shielded the Quran when the Arabs where fleeing Saudi Arabia. And the Arabs during their prime have done a lot of terrible things, but their genie was always left behind, their mark was always left behind in a somewhat positive way, look at Spain their archtechture still stands, their medicinal inventions are still being used today, Timbuktu still stands.

One can't say the same about the europeans, what have they left behind in Africa, South America, Asia? Plantations? It was all for profit.

- - - Updated - - -

The biggest mistakes the Europeans have made during the colonial conquest unlike the arabs, was to exclude the people that they have invaded. It really is the biggest difference.

 

[swag]

He was big man, huge! Colossal! And a father figure to all Africans. Read up on Thomas Sankara @Maddy too, one of my personal hero's a big man, that unfortunately wasn't as blessed as Uncle Mandela.

When I first became aware of Mandela, it was more of him as a token symbol and I was highly skeptical. While I have strong liberal tendencies at heart, I've also seen the folly of some liberals making saints out of the likes of Mumia Abu-Jamal. So when Mandela was first released, he toured the world to speak -- even here in Oakland -- and there was an immense public outpouring over it. I remained skeptical, as a sort of "what has he done lately besides remained holed up in prison for 27 years?"

But since then I've learned so much more about him, and he achieved yet so much more. He fits the category of under-appreciated hero who should be recognized not just for what he did, but at least as much for what he helped prevent from happening. Humans focus on the doing -- the firefighters in 9/11 -- we don't give the same credence to people or events that prevent terrorist acts from ever happening, for example. What Mandela did took an enormously big person, and he essentially created a Schindler's List of an entire nation.

 

[Raz]

So blame the higher ups in the middle east for dealing with us. I'd be curious to see how far the middle east would have evolved if it wasn't for the wealth accumulated by the west buying so much oil.

You never fail to deliver

 

[Post Ironic]

I don't disagree there.

But that's the point I am trying to highlight is that the Bible (NT), forgive others is a must. It's in the Lords praryer, its all over. I haven't read the entire Quran, yet, so maybe I'm missing where it says it there but all I have been seeing in the Quran is that God is forgiving and merciful but it doesn't always make the claim that Muslims should walk that same path. The closest thing I see there is that when someone accepts Islam, then you forgive them for their past, etc. Christianity teaches, for those who interpret that way, to forgive regardless....and if someone is far from the path then you actually pray for that person.

Again, because my wife is Muslim I've only started learning about Islam not even a year now so, again, apologies if I am missing something. Usually this is when I reach out to @Ze Tahir for clarification.

Anyways, my instincts tell me one religion teaches more tolerance than the other. And this is also a source of a few arguments between the wife and I

But this is just naive and wrong. Christianity's emphasis on forgiveness is a matter of interpretation, as the Old Testament and YahWeh is basically a tale of genocide, revenge, an eye for an eye, and the like. Much depends on how one interprets and emphasizes the interaction between the two parts of the now Christian Bible. For hundreds of years Christians brought fire and sword to those who didn't agree with them, and in the name of the pope. The crusades, the inquisition, colonialism, religo-political assassinations, support for anti-semitic pogroms, etc. The bible is, in essence, unchanged from that time, if slight differences can be found, especially regarding accepted canon and such, but the conflict between Old and New testament is still there and leaves much to interpretation.

Islam is much the same with the Quran. Only, 1800 years haven't passed for them yet. The history is much shorter, less time for interpretation of scripture to evolve and for the more extremist viewpoints to fade into obscurity. And the Muslims have constantly been surrounded and bombarded by hatred and a lack of understanding by the outside world. It does not help the evolution of the religion into a more peaceful future for their homelands to have been constantly occupied and controlled by foreigners from separate cultures for a large part of their history, including 20th century history. It doesn't help that Europeans ripped away part of Palestinian lands to create Israel and basically a refuge situation for Muslims in their own homeland. Europeans massacre the Jews, with tacit acceptance by the Roman Catholic Church for the most part, and then instead of creating a Jewish homeland in Europe they just ship them down to the Middle East and create 70 years of warfare and escalating tensions. Brilliant.

America has been arming insurgents in the Middle East (and around the world) for decades to overthrow governments that are unfriendly to its interests, on the pretext of overthrowing dictators. Ignoring the fact that they've allowed dictators to replace dictators, that they supported dictators previous to the current unfriendly ones. The examples are almost countless. It's a bloody joke, as is the minuscule number of Westerners that have died at the hands of Muslims as opposed to the number of Muslims that have died at the hands of Westerners over the last 40 years.

 

[Fr3sh]

When I first became aware of Mandela, it was more of him as a token symbol and I was highly skeptical. While I have strong liberal tendencies at heart, I've also seen the folly of some liberals making saints out of the likes of Mumia Abu-Jamal. So when Mandela was first released, he toured the world to speak -- even here in Oakland -- and there was an immense public outpouring over it. I remained skeptical, as a sort of "what has he done lately besides remained holed up in prison for 27 years?"

But since then I've learned so much more about him, and he achieved yet so much more. He fits the category of under-appreciated hero who should be recognized not just for what he did, but at least as much for what he helped prevent from happening. Humans focus on the doing -- the firefighters in 9/11 -- we don't give the same credence to people or events that prevent terrorist acts from ever happening, for example. What Mandela did took an enormously big person, and he essentially created a Schindler's List of an entire nation.

100% agree Mandela was an incredible individual. I hope Somalia is gonna get a Mandela too. A Mandela for every country!!

 

[Hust]

One can't say the same about the europeans, what have they left behind in Africa, South America, Asia? Plantations? It was all for profit.


The biggest mistakes the Europeans have made during the colonial conquest unlike the arabs, was to exclude the people that they have invaded. It really is the biggest difference.

-education
-medicine
-science
-technology
-cars
-electric/utilities

Everyone is guilty for a lot, no question but one can't simply brush under the rug or ignore the positives that certain things have given other cultures.

- - - Updated - - -

But this is just naive and wrong. Christianity's emphasis on forgiveness is a matter of interpretation, as the Old Testament and YahWeh is basically a tale of genocide, revenge, an eye for an eye, and the like. Much depends on how one interprets and emphasizes the interaction between the two parts of the now Christian Bible. For hundreds of years Christians brought fire and sword to those who didn't agree with them, and in the name of the pope. The crusades, the inquisition, colonialism, religo-political assassinations, support for anti-semitic pogroms, etc. The bible is, in essence, unchanged from that time, if slight differences can be found, especially regarding accepted canon and such, but the conflict between Old and New testament is still there and leaves much to interpretation.

Islam is much the same with the Quran. Only, 1800 years haven't passed for them yet. The history is much shorter, less time for interpretation of scripture to evolve and for the more extremist viewpoints to fade into obscurity. And the Muslims have constantly been surrounded and bombarded by hatred and a lack of understanding by the outside world. It does not help the evolution of the religion into a more peaceful future for their homelands to have been constantly occupied and controlled by foreigners from separate cultures for a large part of their history, including 20th century history. It doesn't help that Europeans ripped away part of Palestinian lands to create Israel and basically a refuge situation for Muslims in their own homeland. Europeans massacre the Jews, with tacit acceptance by the Roman Catholic Church for the most part, and then instead of creating a Jewish homeland in Europe they just ship them down to the Middle East and create 70 years of warfare and escalating tensions. Brilliant.

America has been arming insurgents in the Middle East (and around the world) for decades to overthrow governments that are unfriendly to its interests, on the pretext of overthrowing dictators. Ignoring the fact that they've allowed dictators to replace dictators, that they supported dictators previous to the current unfriendly ones. The examples are almost countless. It's a bloody joke, as is the minuscule number of Westerners that have died at the hands of Muslims as opposed to the number of Muslims that have died at the hands of Westerners over the last 40 years.

I'm certainly no fan of the Catholic Church...like, at all. The new testament certainly takes a completely different (seemingly, more humane) way than that of the old testament. But again, as you say, it's all down to interpretation which I agree with completely, which I mentioned (I think) in one of my earlier posts.

 

[swag]

-education
-medicine
-science
-technology
-cars
-electric/utilities

Everyone is guilty for a lot, no question but one can't simply brush under the rug or ignore the positives that certain things have given other cultures.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm certainly no fan of the Catholic Church...like, at all. The new testament certainly takes a completely different (seemingly, more humane) way than that of the old testament. But again, as you say, it's all down to interpretation which I agree with completely, which I mentioned (I think) in one of my earlier posts.

The great irony being that it was the Muslims who taught all the Westerners math, geometry, astronomy, physics, architecture, engineering, medicine ... not to mention how to make and eat decent food, how to make coffee and wine, etc.

 

[Fr3sh]

-education
-medicine
-science
-technology
-cars
-electric/utilities

Everyone is guilty for a lot, no question but one can't simply brush under the rug or ignore the positives that certain things have given other cultures.

I completely disagree with the bolded parts. Education what education? The US has one of the weakest education system, France has a great education system, but you can't get work and on top of that said "education" can very well be nothing more than indoctrination. How often do we talk about the history of places other than Europe and the New World? What purpose does said education serve? To educate? Or to create "informed" workers and catalogue them?

Medicine? Yea, go on an create the poison and sell me the potion.

Science? Bio-terrorism is all I see, destruction of the earth is what I see. Go on to the moon all you want, you can't eat there.

Technology? Nothing under the sun is new my friend. And there is more than one way of doing things, there are still historic marvels that are impossible to reproduce today. What we don't know, we give credit to it to the aliens, they did since we didn't do it.

Whatever the west had to give, it was at a cost, and the cost is your identity. I'll repeat it once more, the biggest difference between the western world's colonial conquest and the arab's was that the arabs integrated the invaded people within their societies and evolved with them. The west is all about exclusivity.

 

[Post Ironic]

I'm certainly no fan of the Catholic Church...like, at all. The new testament certainly takes a completely different (seemingly, more humane) way than that of the old testament. But again, as you say, it's all down to interpretation which I agree with completely, which I mentioned (I think) in one of my earlier posts.

I didn't see that. My apologies.

I think part of the problem is the current state of Islam in the world, and of Islamic people. They're marginalized and ostracized, their countries are occupied, invaded, laid siege to, sanctioned harshly. Is it deserved at times? Maybe. The problem is, a vicious cycle is created there, because in attacking these nations and their cultures, you create the circumstance for more hatred to breed, for a greater feeling of disenfranchisement, of a lack of rights, of a lack of self-determination as a people. That culture is still evolving, the religion (more so interpretation of the religion) is till evolving. It's several hundred years behind Christianity in longevity.

One thing I do believe: if Christians were living in the same circumstance that much of the Islamic world is in, and were ostracized and marginalized in the same way, I think you'd see the exact same things from Christians. A holy war against the outside. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Just as I doubt the extremists and fundamentalists of Islam would exist in such large numbers if they were in our place.

 

[Fr3sh]

The great irony being that it was the Muslims who taught all the Westerners math, geometry, astronomy, physics, architecture, engineering, medicine ... not to mention how to make and eat decent food, how to make coffee and wine, etc.

Touché.

 

[Hust]

The great irony being that it was the Muslims who taught all the Westerners math, geometry, astronomy, physics, architecture, engineering, medicine ... not to mention how to make and eat decent food, how to make coffee and wine, etc.

Indeed, but when you look at certain countries in the region and Africa...certain things were more embraced it seems in one area, while another area seemed to stall.

 

[Maddy]

The great irony being that it was the Muslims who taught all the Westerners math, geometry, astronomy, physics, architecture, engineering, medicine ... not to mention how to make and eat decent food, how to make coffee and wine, etc.

Pythagoras that filthy muslim!

 

[Hust]

I didn't see that. My apologies.

I think part of the problem is the current state of Islam in the world, and of Islamic people. They're marginalized and ostracized, their countries are occupied, invaded, laid siege to, sanctioned harshly. Is it deserved at times? Maybe. The problem is, a vicious cycle is created there, because in attacking these nations and their cultures, you create the circumstance for more hatred to breed, for a greater feeling of disenfranchisement, of a lack of rights, of a lack of self-determination as a people. That culture is still evolving, the religion (more so interpretation of the religion) is till evolving. It's several hundred years behind Christianity in longevity.

One thing I do believe: if Christians were living in the same circumstance that much of the Islamic world is in, and were ostracized and marginalized in the same way, I think you'd see the exact same things from Christians. A holy war against the outside. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Just as I doubt the extremists and fundamentalists of Islam would exist in such large numbers if they were in our place.

I think it would depend where in Christianity (old testament times or new testament times) we were in.

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like Alegebra was more from the middle east than geometry (primarily greek)

 

[Fr3sh]

Indeed, but when you look at certain countries in the region and Africa...certain things were more embraced it seems in one area, while another area seemed to stall.

 

[Post Ironic]

The great irony being that it was the Muslims who taught all the Westerners math, geometry, astronomy, physics, architecture, engineering, medicine ... not to mention how to make and eat decent food, how to make coffee and wine, etc.

Although, much of this knowledge came out of Greece to the Muslims, who developed upon it exponentially.

It's kind of fantastic that wine originated in what is now Georgia. It's impossible to find Georgian wine here in Canada. So some day I'll have to go visit that nation.

 

[Hust]

Although, much of this knowledge came out of Greece to the Muslims, who developed upon it exponentially.

It's kind of fantastic that wine originated in what is now Georgia. It's impossible to find Georgian wine here in Canada. So some day I'll have to go visit that nation.

Not sure if you have Whole Foods where you live up there, but I think I recall them having wine from that region before. Might be wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

So all countries advance at the same rate?

 

[Fr3sh]

Although, much of this knowledge came out of Greece to the Muslims, who developed upon it exponentially.

It's kind of fantastic that wine originated in what is now Georgia. It's impossible to find Georgian wine here in Canada. So some day I'll have to go visit that nation.

Give it a read, and explore a bit on the topic. Not saying it's the truth, or anything, I don't know much, but ya, it's always good to have more then one perspective on things.


http://www.philipcoppens.com/egyptgreece.html

 

[Maddy]

Can we just all agree that humans all benefit from sharing ideas and wealth?

And quit this pathetic blame game and who had the better civilisation?

- - - Updated - - -

Although, much of this knowledge came out of Greece to the Muslims, who developed upon it exponentially.

It's kind of fantastic that wine originated in what is now Georgia. It's impossible to find Georgian wine here in Canada. So some day I'll have to go visit that nation.

Georgian Wine sucks. If you want "ian"-wine. Go Hungarian

 

[Post Ironic]

Georgian Wine sucks. If you want "ian"-wine. Go Hungarian

Some Hungarian wines are fantastic.