Champions League 2018/19 (54 Viewers)

[Fred]

Yeah, but on a serious note it applies to Guardiola as well, the only team he ever coached that was tough and played great footie against the strongest teams was Barca, at Bayern and City he has had some embarrassing moments in CL. If we're talking next season, I'm not sure City will be among CL favorites, it seems to me that they just don't have the spine for it.

You only say that because thats where he won the CL.

But his overall record, including reaching three straight semis with Bayern is a fantastic record by any measure. Its easy to say he should have won the CL with Bayern, but the CL doesn't work like that, no manager in the history of CL would pass that litmus test. Like I said, give me the name of any manager in the history of CL who has coached for enough time, and I'll make the very same argument you make against Guardiola, and show you a few embarassing moments with strong teams as well.

Its exactly like some Juve fans who hold it against Allegri for not winning the CL; I just think when judging managers at the top level, lots of fans have ridiculously high expectations that no manager would be able to meet consistently.

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Zidane showed him how you win when having the best team. Problem is, you can't do that with any manager. Not every manager had the chance to coach the clear cut best team in the world for multiple consecutive seasons. Zidane did and won 3 in a row. Pep did, and won 2/4

Well but how many leagues did ZZ win? its not only the CL that you should be looking at. I'd prefer a manager that also wins leagues, and not just cup competitions even if they are the CL.

But even if we are talking about the CL; the margins you are talking about are extremely small; in Guardiola's first three seasons he won 2 out of 3 CLs, the one he lost, he was knocked out in the semis by a treble winning Inter team by the away goal rule. Are you saying such a small margin is what convinced you that ZZ is world class and Pep is not? That doesn't seem to be enough, and this is not taking the league in consideration, where ZZ finished behind Atletico this season.

Then again, what you are saying is that those Barca and Real teams are the best in history? Because that would be interesting.

 

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[zizinho]

You only say that because thats where he won the CL.

But his overall record, including reaching three straight semis with Bayern is a fantastic record by any measure. Its easy to say he should have won the CL with Bayern, but the CL doesn't work like that, no manager in the history of CL would pass that litmus test. Like I said, give me the name of any manager in the history of CL who has coached for enough time, and I'll make the very same argument you make against Guardiola, and show you a few embarassing moments with strong teams as well.

Its exactly like some Juve fans who hold it against Allegri for not winning the CL; I just think when judging managers at the top level, lots of fans have ridiculously high expectations that no manager would be able to meet consistently.

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Well but how many leagues did ZZ win? its not only the CL that you should be looking at. I'd prefer a manager that also wins leagues, and not just cup competitions even if they are the CL.

But even if we are talking about the CL; the margins you are talking about are extremely small; in Guardiola's first three seasons he won 2 out of 3 CLs, the one he lost, he was knocked out in the semis by a treble winning Inter team by the away goal rule. Are you saying such a small margin is what convinced you that ZZ is world class and Pep is not? That doesn't seem to be enough, and this is not taking the league in consideration, where ZZ finished behind Atletico this season.

Then again, what you are saying is that those Barca and Real teams are the best in history? Because that would be interesting.

I'm glad you bring up Allegri, because he always meets up expectations or exceeds them (exception being that one Tottenham tie with Milan, but it was his 1st season ever in CL). Guardiola has lost to underdogs in 5 seasons out of 9 he's coached in CL, and he was in charge of the richest and most star studded teams out there

 

[pitbull]

You only say that because thats where he won the CL.

But his overall record, including reaching three straight semis with Bayern is a fantastic record by any measure. Its easy to say he should have won the CL with Bayern, but the CL doesn't work like that, no manager in the history of CL would pass that litmus test. Like I said, give me the name of any manager in the history of CL who has coached for enough time, and I'll make the very same argument you make against Guardiola, and show you a few embarassing moments with strong teams as well.

Its exactly like some Juve fans who hold it against Allegri for not winning the CL; I just think when judging managers at the top level, lots of fans have ridiculously high expectations that no manager would be able to meet consistently.

Not sure I'd call it fantastic, mostly he eliminated average sides that were miles below Bayern and got eliminated once a great team came his way. although, tbf to him, Guardiola had a good run in 15/16, that semi-final exit against Atletico was some serious choking from Bayern, Pep set them up perfectly that game

 

[zizinho]

You only say that because thats where he won the CL.

But his overall record, including reaching three straight semis with Bayern is a fantastic record by any measure. Its easy to say he should have won the CL with Bayern, but the CL doesn't work like that, no manager in the history of CL would pass that litmus test. Like I said, give me the name of any manager in the history of CL who has coached for enough time, and I'll make the very same argument you make against Guardiola, and show you a few embarassing moments with strong teams as well.

Its exactly like some Juve fans who hold it against Allegri for not winning the CL; I just think when judging managers at the top level, lots of fans have ridiculously high expectations that no manager would be able to meet consistently.

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Well but how many leagues did ZZ win? its not only the CL that you should be looking at. I'd prefer a manager that also wins leagues, and not just cup competitions even if they are the CL.

But even if we are talking about the CL; the margins you are talking about are extremely small; in Guardiola's first three seasons he won 2 out of 3 CLs, the one he lost, he was knocked out in the semis by a treble winning Inter team by the away goal rule. Are you saying such a small margin is what convinced you that ZZ is world class and Pep is not? That doesn't seem to be enough, and this is not taking the league in consideration, where ZZ finished behind Atletico this season.

Then again, what you are saying is that those Barca and Real teams are the best in history? Because that would be interesting.

I'm not saying they are the best in history, but they are/were the best in the world and heavy favorites in the CL in consecutive seasons. Usually in the past, you had more teams that are at the top, so it was more of a close race.

Zidane in the league was bad only this season, out of his 2.5. in his 1st .5 season, he reduced a huge gap Benitez left him with and finished within 2 pts of Barcelona. The year after he won it. This season was bad, but they stopped caring about it once it was clear Barca are running away, so them finishing behind atletico means nothing to me.

 

[Fred]

I'm glad you bring up Allegri, because he always meets up expectations or exceeds them (exception being that one Tottenham tie with Milan, but it was his 1st season ever in CL). Guardiola has lost to underdogs in 5 seasons out of 9 he's coached in CL, and he was in charge of the richest and most star studded teams out there

But this comes back to the unrealistic expectations I talked about; if favorites win every season, then only 2-3 teams in history would have won the CL by now, it just doesn't work like that.

So if you expect Guardiola to do better than 2 CL's and two semis in 4 seasons with Barca, does that mean you consider them one of the best squads in history? They have to be, theres no other way you'd actually expect a manager to win 3/4 or all 4 CL's.

But since you're talking about Allegri, and you don't subscribe to the squad cost/wage bill argument. Why would you consider Allegri to be an underdog to the teams he lost to? Also, if we talk about embarrassing moments; doesn't going out to that Tottenham team that had Pienaar, Crouch, Lennon and various other mediocre players in their regular starting lineup count as embarrassing? How about blowing a 2-0 lead against Barca by losing 4-0, and almost blowing a 4-0 lead against Arsenal by losing 3-0 at the Emirates? (RVP missed an absolute sitter for the fourth too, with an empty net). How about managing to be the only team to concede four goals in 90 minutes in a CL final for decades(when has that ever happened anyway), despite having a back four consisting of Bonucci, Chiellini, Alves, Sandro and Buffon in GK, arguably the strongest and most stacked back line and GK in European football *

* This is not really my opinion; in my opinion when you coach for enough seasons, these things are bound to happen, like I said, give me a name of any manager that has managed long enough and I can give you such examples.

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Not sure I'd call it fantastic, mostly he eliminated average sides that were miles below Bayern and got eliminated once a great team came his way. although, tbf to him, Guardiola had a good run in 15/16, that semi-final exit against Atletico was some serious choking from Bayern, Pep set them up perfectly that game

It is fantastic when you consider that very few managers have won more than two CLs, its fantastic when you consider that only Ancelotti and Ferguson have reached more semis than he has.

Like I said earlier, if we play the cherrypicking matches game, we can do that with any manager. No manager that has managed enough would ever pass that litmus test.

I'm not saying they are the best in history, but they are/were the best in the world and heavy favorites in the CL in consecutive seasons. Usually in the past, you had more teams that are at the top, so it was more of a close race.

Zidane in the league was bad only this season, out of his 2.5. in his 1st .5 season, he reduced a huge gap Benitez left him with and finished within 2 pts of Barcelona. The year after he won it. This season was bad, but they stopped caring about it once it was clear Barca are running away, so them finishing behind atletico means nothing to me.

Would you say Pep's Barcelona team as individuals were better than Juve in the 90's. The team that had DP, Zidane and co. I'd imagine you don't consider Messi to be better than prime, pre injury DP or Zidane. I'm also assuming that Juve's midfield of ZZ, DD, Davids and co would be on par or stronger in your opinion than Busquets, Iniesta and Xavi. But correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, I ask, because I am interested to know what your opinion of the legendary Lippi is, what with your extremely high expectations of what favorites should be doing

Real were behind Atletico for most of the season though. Also since we're playing this game, what do you think of Zz's league record against Barcelona, he's lost all three home games against them FFS

 

[zizinho]

But this comes back to the unrealistic expectations I talked about; if favorites win every season, then only 2-3 teams in history would have won the CL by now, it just doesn't work like that.

So if you expect Guardiola to do better than 2 CL's and two semis in 4 seasons with Barca, does that mean you consider them one of the best squads in history? They have to be, theres no other way you'd actually expect a manager to win 3/4 or all 4 CL's.

But since you're talking about Allegri, and you don't subscribe to the squad cost/wage bill argument. Why would you consider Allegri to be an underdog to the teams he lost to? Also, if we talk about embarrassing moments; doesn't going out to that Tottenham team that had Pienaar, Crouch, Lennon and various other mediocre players in their regular starting lineup count as embarrassing? How about blowing a 2-0 lead against Barca by losing 4-0, and almost blowing a 4-0 lead against Arsenal by losing 3-0 at the Emirates? (RVP missed an absolute sitter for the fourth too, with an empty net). How about managing to be the only team to concede four goals in 90 minutes in a CL final for decades(when has that ever happened anyway), despite having a back four consisting of Bonucci, Chiellini, Alves, Sandro and Buffon in GK, arguably the strongest and most stacked back line and GK in European football *

* This is not really my opinion; in my opinion when you coach for enough seasons, these things are bound to happen, like I said, give me a name of any manager that has managed long enough and I can give you such examples.

Who would you say was the favorite in those early 2000s games between Real and Bayern (they met almost every year)? What about Juve real in 2003, or Chelsea Barcelona in 2005 or 2006? Even if you say one or the other, the difference wasn't big. Barcelona wasn't like that. They had their golden generation, they had prime Messi and the backbone of the greatest Spain team ever, from defense to attack. They had superstar internationals on top of this. They were clearly the best team in the world up until 2013 (2015 as well, with all 3 of MSN in top form). Similar to this Real, for a couple of years they are clearly the best team on paper. If you're Rijkaards Barcelona and lose to Mous Chelsea, that's not a choke, since you face an opponent of comparable quality. If you're Peps Barcelona and lose to di Matteo's Chelsea, that's an epic choke, since you should be winning that game 3/4 to 0/1. I hope I made my point clear.

Allegri lost to Barcelona, Real, Bayern and now twice Real. all 3 were favorites against us, and in 3 of the 4 meetings we had ref errors cost us the tie, but thats another discussion. He beat every opponent he was supposed to beat with us, and only once didn't do that with Milan. You bring up the trashing against Barcelona, but that was a terrible Milan team, they had no business winning even the 1st game. All I ask is dont go out against teams you're supposed to beat, where you are the obvious favorite. As long as pep keeps doing that, he's a choker.

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@Fred it's not about what teams from the past you're better at, it's about how much superior you are to the teams you're competing with. Apples and oranges

 

[pitbull]

It is fantastic when you consider that very few managers have won more than two CLs, its fantastic when you consider that only Ancelotti and Ferguson have reached more semis than he has.

Like I said earlier, if we play the cherrypicking matches game, we can do that with any manager. No manager that has managed enough would ever pass that litmus test.

Guardiola winning 2 CLs is fantastic, I agree, especially since he created that team and made it his own. I do not rate Enrique much despite winning the treble with Barca, wouldn't want him anywhere near Juve. Peps CL record at Bayern however was not fantastic, it was pretty regular for a club like Bayern

 

[Fred]

Who would you say was the favorite in those early 2000s games between Real and Bayern (they met almost every year)? What about Juve real in 2003, or Chelsea Barcelona in 2005 or 2006? Even if you say one or the other, the difference wasn't big. Barcelona wasn't like that. They had their golden generation, they had prime Messi and the backbone of the greatest Spain team ever, from defense to attack. They had superstar internationals on top of this. They were clearly the best team in the world up until 2013 (2015 as well, with all 3 of MSN in top form). Similar to this Real, for a couple of years they are clearly the best team on paper. If you're Rijkaards Barcelona and lose to Mous Chelsea, that's not a choke, since you face an opponent of comparable quality. If you're Peps Barcelona and lose to di Matteo's Chelsea, that's an epic choke, since you should be winning that game 3/4 to 0/1. I hope I made my point clear.

Allegri lost to Barcelona, Real, Bayern and now twice Real. all 3 were favorites against us, and in 3 of the 4 meetings we had ref errors cost us the tie, but thats another discussion. He beat every opponent he was supposed to beat with us, and only once didn't do that with Milan. You bring up the trashing against Barcelona, but that was a terrible Milan team, they had no business winning even the 1st game. All I ask is dont go out against teams you're supposed to beat, where you are the obvious favorite. As long as pep keeps doing that, he's a choker.

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@Fred it's not about what teams from the past you're better at, it's about how much superior you are to the teams you're competing with. Apples and oranges

But Lippis Juve lost the CL to teams like Dortmund and a very average R.Madrid side(compare their then players to Juve's at the time) , not exactly favorites he was losing against. Especially the Dortmund one, which reminds me of Di Matteo's Chelsea.

Your point is clear, but I don't agree with it at all. You're saying you shouldn't be eliminated from the CL when you're a favorite, I'm saying thats an extremely unrealistic expectation and goes completely against the grain of history. Also when you manage a big team, you are almost always a favorite, so this way any manager of a big team will be a failure, because no manager in history always wins when he's a favorite, it just doesn't happen.

Also back to Allegri, with your extremely high standards for what you consider to be successful, are you really giving Allegri a pass for conceding four to Real Madrid in a final, and conceding four to Barcelona with AC Milan, the same Barca that didn't have a coach at the time, and lost 7-0 on aggregate to Bayern? How about being the only manager to concede 7 goals in a CL final with one of the strongest if not the strongest backline in Europe. I mean maybe he wasn't a favorite, but surely you don't think he should be losing by such big margins when you are so demanding of managers

Also on your last point about apples and oranges; Lippi lost the CL to teams that he was favorites against, so thats your Apples for Apples.

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Guardiola winning 2 CLs is fantastic, I agree, especially since he created that team and made it his own. I do not rate Enrique much despite winning the treble with Barca, wouldn't want him anywhere near Juve. Peps CL record at Bayern however was not fantastic, it was pretty regular for a club like Bayern

I said his overall record was fantastic. Reaching 3 CL finals with Bayern was not of course, but it wasn't a failure either; other than the one against Atletico.

His overall record is one of the best in the CL. If you want to cherry pick matches or periods, I hate to harp on the same point again and again, but yes we can do that to any manager in history.

 

[pitbull]

I said his overall record was fantastic. Reaching 3 CL finals with Bayern was not of course, but it wasn't a failure either; other than the one against Atletico.

His overall record is one of the best in the CL. If you want to cherry pick matches or periods, I hate to harp on the same point again and again, but yes we can do that to any manager in history.

*semi-finals, do not get carried away Actually I liked the Bayern from 15/16 the most, that team looked like winning CL unlike other seasons from Peps time at Bayern, his strikers just choked massively against Atletico, not his fault

 

[zizinho]

@Fred, you're missing my other point, you can't compare across generations and remain fair. 1st of all, since you bring up Juve in the 90s, how much better was that team compared to rest of Europe? How many other teams could realistically be called just as good or close to us on paper? 2nd, that was a very different team each season. We won the CL and let go of Ravanelli and Vialli, Baggio even before that season. Davids and Zidane only arrived after we won the CL, then the changes in attack from Vieri to Inzaghi. Just look at the team that started each final and you'll see. Then you take a look at Barcelona who had the core of the Spain NT in all lines, had Alves, Messi, Etoo, Ibra, Henry, Sanchez, later Neymar and Suarez.. but the core and most of the starting XI remained the same for atleast Peps time there. Look at Real now, same squad for how many years now? Then you have the modern training methods which and everything else very carefully planned so teams last an entire season playing at the highest possible level. The gap between bigger and smaller clubs growing financially so you have top clubs being able to field 2 starting XIs better than most other clubs best XI, etc. It is simply a much different time in terms of mostly financial commitment for the sport, paying attention to every single detail, trying to win every single as irrelevant as it is trophy. If you have a rotation of 13-14 players for a season, you gotta set priorities. Should I go all out for the CL, or play it safe and win the league atleast. What if I start the league poorly, maybe I have no choice but to go all out on CL since I can't win the league anyway. If I go out early in CL and start the league badly, should I try to win the Coppa or aim for a top 5 finish and get in the UEFA cup instead of the cup winners cup? It's something entirely different to having the luxury of roflstomping your league with rotating your squad every game and resting players for the bigger CL.

But enough of that, if I get Pep to coach a treble winning team, add him a striker like Lewa and pay him ridiculous money, I expect the double each year (it's Germany ffs), and I expect atleast one CL. Sure, Real and Barcelona were maybe too strong at given points, but Atletico was a must win. Same with City. They made a semifinal just before he got the there, they let him spend 200M on whoever he wants, he goes out in Ro16 to Monaco. Barely finishing 4th as well. He spends another 200M, goes out to Liverpool, in quarters this time tho. So even if we assume his Barca tenure to be fantastic, everything after is mediocre.

Allegri lost to Barcelona in 2012, when Pep was in charge, they did have a coach. Allegris team was terrible btw, had no business finishing 3rd in Italy and winning even that one game against Barcelona. And context matters, against Barcelona we had a PK at 1-1 not given, they score on the transition afterwards. The 3rd goal came late when we went all out attacking. Against Real, we had zero depth. We fielded both our strikers and both our wingers at the same time, they played without a break for 6 months. We occasionally had Lemina and Sturaro play there to give them rest, or Rincon instead of Dybala. You realize how terrible this is? The team was run to the ground and injuries hit us hard. 1st Cuadrado, wasn't the same after, then Khedira and in the final, Pjanic and Mandzukic. Alves and Bonucci likely caused a locker room meltdown at halftime, so the team clearly wasn't on its 100% level. Ofcourse I'm happy with what Allegri did so far, 4 doubles means he did his job to the fullest. He got a team that went out in the group stage the season before to the final, where he could have easily won, then lost like half of the team, got that team to almost proceed against Bayern, if not for a disallowed Morata goal. Then loses some of his best players again, reaches final with a new team and new formation again. Now we lost half our defense and were going to extra time vs Real, winning 3-0 in Madrid, with a new formation yet again. How could I hold anything against him?

 

[BayernFan]

Pep will make them look $#@! in the CL?

How many managers do you know that are better than him in the CL, specifically that have a better record?

Unless you only consider two or three managers to be successful and the rest $#@!, in which case you have unrealistically high standards for success.

Your so easy to trigger it seems. Pep is no doubt a good coach, but he often makes life way harder for himself than neccesary, only because of his approach. He only wants to play one way, keep possesion and dominate the opponent.

Since he went on from Barca he has never done anything in the CL, not even after he took over one of the best Bayern squads in history.

 

[zizinho]

Your so easy to trigger it seems. Pep is no doubt a bad coach, but he often makes life way harder for himself than neccesary, only because of his approach. He only wants to play one way, keep possesion and dominate the opponent.

Since he went on from Barca he has never done anything in the CL, not even after he took over one of the best Bayern squads in history.

 

[BayernFan]

Yeah I saw it, didnt know at first if I just should let it be without edit

 

[Wittl]

Yeah I saw it, didnt know at first if I just should let it be

Wat? Thought that was serious. Almost gave a +rep, luckily I didn't.

 

[BayernFan]

Wat? Thought that was serious. Almost gave a +rep, luckily I didn't.

To me he is overrated still

 

[Wittl]

To me he is overrated still

 

[s4tch]

Klopp, lol. @DAiDEViL

if it was allegri singing with the fans, people of tuz would be all over it.

 

[zizinho]

To me he is overrated still

Nice try. Here, have this -rep

 

[Wittl]

if it was allegri singing with the fans, people of tuz would be all over it.

Yeah, with the fans. It's with the VIP's with one of Germany's most popular musicians.

 

[BayernFan]

Nice try. Here, have this -rep