Carlos Garcia...yep, it's true (9 Viewers)
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I think we are on a different page here. We both agree that we have mishandled our youth, I think...at least that's what I think. As Adrian (whom I agree with) put it, we have done just that, Marchisio aside. Os, you want players to make that step. So do I and everyone else here. But, as I have said a million times before and God knows Andy has too...what youth product can we and have we been able to rely on? Marchisio...and that was by default. Admit it or not, Ranieri only played him because everyone else was injured. Now look at him. He was given a luck chance and made the most of it. Gio, for 2 years now has been give 15mins here and another 15 mins there. He has ALWAYS produced creative play, assists and added a spark to our team. Why has that not merited a place in our starting 11?
De Ceglie, granted may not be the most productive of our youth, but then again has never really been given the chances and he has played in 2 VERY different positions and asked to perform on each. Don't get me started on Criscito, shame on us for that mistake. Yago? When he came we were all dreaming, yet he hasn't stepped foot on our senior team until this weekend...and will probably be in the stands for it. Ariaudo was given a chance last season in Coppa, played well for being thrown in muddy waters and then what...vanished back to Prima.
So here we have(had) these promising youngsters like marrone, yago, gio once upon a time, criscito, daud, etc and we are spending massive amounts of money on players that will only push them further away...Grosso, Candreva, Diego, Melo, etc etc.
My question is what exactly is the point of winning a petty youth tournament in Italy to showcase our youth academy but spend 50m on imports the very next year instead of trying integrate them right away and learn from the greats we have? Teams do it all the time and screw this Italy taboo about youth policy. I am talking about my club, no one else. Who is to say we can't break that glass ceiling and show Europe that we are about the future of soccer, not the present?
Look, I am sorry about being so negative in this respect, perhaps you are right. But needless to say based off of what our current young crop has gone through or is going through, the future looks gloom for any youth we bring in...besides the occasional youth trophy they win. After that, then what? As Adrian has said, if we are winning these trophys so easily, why the hell aren't we seeing these kids make their way up? Makes no sense. We will never be a club that follows its youth if we always buy a new player that is young enough to outstay a younger player trying to push his way from youth to senior.
Look at Garcia for example...this kid is young, OBVIOUSLY and plays RB/CB. We plan to buy rafinha/rannocchia/kjaer, for example a new CB and RB...any of those 3 will be playing great soccer for the next 8-12 years. So, what is the point of Garcia then, if we are looking to invest in a young talented player (from another team) costing MILLIONS to play for the next decade? Do you honestly think that Garcia will wait around benched or loaned for his chance to play at Juve? I have no problem investing in the future, but we seem to be hypocrites when it comes to our youth. We want a younger team, invest in youth but still spend outsourcing? Meanwhile, clubs like Genoa like to enjoy their new found co-owns succeed like Criscito who has a sour taste in his mouth regarding Juventus, the club that helped create him but never gave him a chance?
I am sorry for always bashing loans and pissing everyone off, but shit its frustrating to watch a poor youngster work his ASS off for years and looking up to the likes of DP, Buffon, Chiellini only to have been shipped off and have to play next to the likes of Pellisier in a stadium half the size with a club that will never amount to anything. Doctors don't go to med school to be janitors.
De Ceglie, granted may not be the most productive of our youth, but then again has never really been given the chances and he has played in 2 VERY different positions and asked to perform on each. Don't get me started on Criscito, shame on us for that mistake. Yago? When he came we were all dreaming, yet he hasn't stepped foot on our senior team until this weekend...and will probably be in the stands for it. Ariaudo was given a chance last season in Coppa, played well for being thrown in muddy waters and then what...vanished back to Prima.
So here we have(had) these promising youngsters like marrone, yago, gio once upon a time, criscito, daud, etc and we are spending massive amounts of money on players that will only push them further away...Grosso, Candreva, Diego, Melo, etc etc.
My question is what exactly is the point of winning a petty youth tournament in Italy to showcase our youth academy but spend 50m on imports the very next year instead of trying integrate them right away and learn from the greats we have? Teams do it all the time and screw this Italy taboo about youth policy. I am talking about my club, no one else. Who is to say we can't break that glass ceiling and show Europe that we are about the future of soccer, not the present?
Look, I am sorry about being so negative in this respect, perhaps you are right. But needless to say based off of what our current young crop has gone through or is going through, the future looks gloom for any youth we bring in...besides the occasional youth trophy they win. After that, then what? As Adrian has said, if we are winning these trophys so easily, why the hell aren't we seeing these kids make their way up? Makes no sense. We will never be a club that follows its youth if we always buy a new player that is young enough to outstay a younger player trying to push his way from youth to senior.
Look at Garcia for example...this kid is young, OBVIOUSLY and plays RB/CB. We plan to buy rafinha/rannocchia/kjaer, for example a new CB and RB...any of those 3 will be playing great soccer for the next 8-12 years. So, what is the point of Garcia then, if we are looking to invest in a young talented player (from another team) costing MILLIONS to play for the next decade? Do you honestly think that Garcia will wait around benched or loaned for his chance to play at Juve? I have no problem investing in the future, but we seem to be hypocrites when it comes to our youth. We want a younger team, invest in youth but still spend outsourcing? Meanwhile, clubs like Genoa like to enjoy their new found co-owns succeed like Criscito who has a sour taste in his mouth regarding Juventus, the club that helped create him but never gave him a chance?
I am sorry for always bashing loans and pissing everyone off, but shit its frustrating to watch a poor youngster work his ASS off for years and looking up to the likes of DP, Buffon, Chiellini only to have been shipped off and have to play next to the likes of Pellisier in a stadium half the size with a club that will never amount to anything. Doctors don't go to med school to be janitors.
http://dif.se/diftv/default.asp?id=544
Interview with Garcia on coming to Juve for those that want to see it. He seems honest when saying he had the chance to sign for Inter and Tottenham also, but that he got the best impression from us. That is often the usual yada yada but here it seems sincere.
Interview with Garcia on coming to Juve for those that want to see it. He seems honest when saying he had the chance to sign for Inter and Tottenham also, but that he got the best impression from us. That is often the usual yada yada but here it seems sincere.
Assume? Please indicate where I said that, Luca. Seems like a pretty ambiguous argument that you are trying to pose with no evidence to support it. I have listed the youth players that I am using largely to support my claim, but its hardly "every" player that you are apparently claiming. Honestly, Luca, where did I ever say I want every youth player to have a place in the senior team. You should be more worried about a comment like that as it's more dangerous than you thinking I intend something I never said.
PS. Not to sound angry (cuz I'm not)...thanks for reading my piece. At least I think you read it, or most of it
PS. Not to sound angry (cuz I'm not)...thanks for reading my piece. At least I think you read it, or most of it
The thing is IO think its hard to deny starting every game for empoli was bad for Gio and Marchisio. The loan was perfect. They were not going to play with us so give them first team football against searie teams and then when they prove themselves(like they did) bring them back and give them proper chances with Juve. The problem wasnt the loan its when did alot of these players get a chance to shine for us. Gio shined everywhere he has played(empoli, Primavera and u-21 national team) so why he hasnt started is very confusing. He should at bare minimum be gettin regular sub time.
Really? Interesting.
Hustini, that was a nice post man.
Assume? Please indicate where I said that, Luca. Seems like a pretty ambiguous argument that you are trying to pose with no evidence to support it. I have listed the youth players that I am using largely to support my claim, but its hardly "every" player that you are apparently claiming. Honestly, Luca, where did I ever say I want every youth player to have a place in the senior team. You should be more worried about a comment like that as it's more dangerous than you thinking I intend something I never said.
PS. Not to sound angry (cuz I'm not)...thanks for reading my piece. At least I think you read it, or most of it
PS. Not to sound angry (cuz I'm not)...thanks for reading my piece. At least I think you read it, or most of it
It is confusing, in regards to Gio. You could say the loans were good for Empoli, they got something out of it I suppose. We got lucky with marchisio due to a plethora of injuries that made Ranieri use him. He took his chance well. Gio, the little chances he has been given has also impressed, but why he isn't playing is quite perplexing. If we are going to loan players to grow and then sell them as their value goes up then fine just come out with it at least. But if we are going to loan them to gain experience FOR OUR CLUB and then bring them back to never get to play, what good does that do anybody? That is one of the points I am trying to make.
If you are a player that is getting pushed to other clubs for loans to "gain experience" and when you come back aren't getting the chances that you were supposed to be getting as a result of "growing" from the loan experience then either the player or the club as got to step up and say either "this player isn't needed and can leave or "I am clearly not needed, I want to transfer". Someone should be able to step up and speak. I am tired of hearing Gio's agent say that the club doesn't want to sell him. If that is the case, why the hell don't they trust him more? If they don't then they need to part ways and let the player have his destiny with a team that does trust him.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
With these tournaments we keep winning for the youth. If we are so good, clearly we are because we dominate the whole of Italian youth then why are we failing to integrate them or are they just getting worse when they reach the age of promotion? If we can beat all the other youth talent in Italy then it makes no sense to see at least one a year get some honest playing time in the Senior team.
If you are a player that is getting pushed to other clubs for loans to "gain experience" and when you come back aren't getting the chances that you were supposed to be getting as a result of "growing" from the loan experience then either the player or the club as got to step up and say either "this player isn't needed and can leave or "I am clearly not needed, I want to transfer". Someone should be able to step up and speak. I am tired of hearing Gio's agent say that the club doesn't want to sell him. If that is the case, why the hell don't they trust him more? If they don't then they need to part ways and let the player have his destiny with a team that does trust him.
Really? Interesting.
Hustini, that was a nice post man.
Hustini, that was a nice post man.
With these tournaments we keep winning for the youth. If we are so good, clearly we are because we dominate the whole of Italian youth then why are we failing to integrate them or are they just getting worse when they reach the age of promotion? If we can beat all the other youth talent in Italy then it makes no sense to see at least one a year get some honest playing time in the Senior team.
Hustini, you definitely have some good points about the youth system.
It is frustrating with that we don't integrate our players better, like they do in the other big leagues even though many of them were potentially good players. But I don't think it is that easy. In an ideal world we would bring these players up gradually no matter what while giving them the opportunity to shine or fail. Sadly its far from it.
You mentioned Marchi, who represents the best youth player we had in the past few years. Imo, it is not that he was just lucky it goes way beyond that with Marchi. More than talent, the guy did something none of the other youth players did and that is take his chance. He proved himself as the prime candidate for that role even though it wasn't his best position. And i don't believe that we just didn't have any options, there are always options even with the injuries (other youth players or playing an experienced player out position or changing the formation all together). But he just played so well that the coach was convinced, and went beyond it to his attitude on the field and off it. Gio had a lot of good games but he had many bad ones as well and he didnt have the flexibility of marchi. Its not all his fault ofcourse but you understand how difficult it is. Then you had the likes of criscito and palladino who couldn't handle the pressure.
Osman mentioned how the italian league doesn't traditionally give these young players a chance. The Romanista had a plethora of young players with more senior games than the ones we have but they still couldn't get a proper shot. Now I am not sure whether it is because these young players are not given the chance or simply the league is difficult without any experience. I think its the latter, there a gulf of differences between the youth league and the Serie A which makes it difficult to make that switch that quickly. Hence why there are so many loans even with the smaller teams giving out their players to Serie B clubs and so. How many successful teams had young players permanently in their structures? Very few and that is a shame but thats just reality.
Then point goes to the quality aspect of these players. Given the huge difference between the youth league and the big boys' league you have consider how are they without much playing time. The only quality scale is the few games these players will get along with he judgment of the coach. Then you have the point I made about the mental aspect of those young players and how Marchi was so successful. He is ideal because from his first game in serie B looked like he was a 27 year old with leadership and overall mental toughness that simply elevated him. I know that was reinforced by the games he got but still that was that the big factor for me. The likes of gio, criscito, palladino didn't have it to that extent imo.
The final point is specifically about this team. We have a lot of considerations to take into account. The success factor is the biggest one. Everyone wanted/expected instant success after a huge blow in serie B. To be fair to certain degree, Ranieri tried with players like Palladino and Criscito who failed miserably (not all their fault ofcourse). Success was imperative to us a team, so the flexibility we had (even though were rebuilding) was limited. Then you have the old guard factor. You can't simply bench alex, neddy, camo etc because they were/are big players for us and make a difference. So its an overall difficult situation that we as a team are in, and where it isn't that simple.
It is frustrating with that we don't integrate our players better, like they do in the other big leagues even though many of them were potentially good players. But I don't think it is that easy. In an ideal world we would bring these players up gradually no matter what while giving them the opportunity to shine or fail. Sadly its far from it.
You mentioned Marchi, who represents the best youth player we had in the past few years. Imo, it is not that he was just lucky it goes way beyond that with Marchi. More than talent, the guy did something none of the other youth players did and that is take his chance. He proved himself as the prime candidate for that role even though it wasn't his best position. And i don't believe that we just didn't have any options, there are always options even with the injuries (other youth players or playing an experienced player out position or changing the formation all together). But he just played so well that the coach was convinced, and went beyond it to his attitude on the field and off it. Gio had a lot of good games but he had many bad ones as well and he didnt have the flexibility of marchi. Its not all his fault ofcourse but you understand how difficult it is. Then you had the likes of criscito and palladino who couldn't handle the pressure.
Osman mentioned how the italian league doesn't traditionally give these young players a chance. The Romanista had a plethora of young players with more senior games than the ones we have but they still couldn't get a proper shot. Now I am not sure whether it is because these young players are not given the chance or simply the league is difficult without any experience. I think its the latter, there a gulf of differences between the youth league and the Serie A which makes it difficult to make that switch that quickly. Hence why there are so many loans even with the smaller teams giving out their players to Serie B clubs and so. How many successful teams had young players permanently in their structures? Very few and that is a shame but thats just reality.
Then point goes to the quality aspect of these players. Given the huge difference between the youth league and the big boys' league you have consider how are they without much playing time. The only quality scale is the few games these players will get along with he judgment of the coach. Then you have the point I made about the mental aspect of those young players and how Marchi was so successful. He is ideal because from his first game in serie B looked like he was a 27 year old with leadership and overall mental toughness that simply elevated him. I know that was reinforced by the games he got but still that was that the big factor for me. The likes of gio, criscito, palladino didn't have it to that extent imo.
The final point is specifically about this team. We have a lot of considerations to take into account. The success factor is the biggest one. Everyone wanted/expected instant success after a huge blow in serie B. To be fair to certain degree, Ranieri tried with players like Palladino and Criscito who failed miserably (not all their fault ofcourse). Success was imperative to us a team, so the flexibility we had (even though were rebuilding) was limited. Then you have the old guard factor. You can't simply bench alex, neddy, camo etc because they were/are big players for us and make a difference. So its an overall difficult situation that we as a team are in, and where it isn't that simple.
I thought a lot about how I wanted to respond yesterday to your post but after the Roma match completely forgot about it. If there was every a case to throw on one of our talented youngsters, yesterday would have been the day. First off, we loan a youngster like Candreva and start Sali instead. What position exactly is Sali best known for? We have Yago called back and Fausto Rossi who could have also been thrown into the game for a creative spark, much like what we have tried to use Gio for successfully in the last 2 seasons. Why not yesterday?
Amauri? ugh, I would rather sniff carpet micro-bugs instead of start him. Why not just grow a set of balls and start Paolucci with DP? We have seen how well Marchisio links up with DP, who knows maybe Paolucci would have too. Obviously Amauri and DP don't do so hot. It is clear the players we have aren't working together and its time to reshuffle the deck completely. This is when I would at least try a youngster, at least in the second half when we conceded the PK.
As for your post (Last paragraph), I agree Criscito failed that season but only two or three games played? Look at the faith that molinaro was given and what did he ever do? Same goes to Amauri for the last 9 months. Criscito would have learned quickly and adapted well. Can you imagine if Dom stayed and was playing next to Chieillini the way he is playing now at Genoa? You can't expect a youth to sink or swim in only a few games. It has taken a whole season for Melo and Diego to adjust and they still haven't completely and they were considered superstars but our own youth only are given a couple games????:luckyluke:
Amauri? ugh, I would rather sniff carpet micro-bugs instead of start him. Why not just grow a set of balls and start Paolucci with DP? We have seen how well Marchisio links up with DP, who knows maybe Paolucci would have too. Obviously Amauri and DP don't do so hot. It is clear the players we have aren't working together and its time to reshuffle the deck completely. This is when I would at least try a youngster, at least in the second half when we conceded the PK.
As for your post (Last paragraph), I agree Criscito failed that season but only two or three games played? Look at the faith that molinaro was given and what did he ever do? Same goes to Amauri for the last 9 months. Criscito would have learned quickly and adapted well. Can you imagine if Dom stayed and was playing next to Chieillini the way he is playing now at Genoa? You can't expect a youth to sink or swim in only a few games. It has taken a whole season for Melo and Diego to adjust and they still haven't completely and they were considered superstars but our own youth only are given a couple games????:luckyluke:
I forgot about this thread as well after that game.
I wouldn't have started Candreva simply because he is young and just came in. Too much pressure from the first game to perform.
But I completely understand your point about playing these kids. Actually this season is the best one to play them, so many injuries and players underperforming. Sadly we don't have a good structure or plan for them to play in or we just have no confidence. Then again that goes back to the point about the quality gap between the youth and the first team. Its not just a problem with us, its all over the league where only a few players are given the chance.
Criscito was partially destroyed by Ranieri. You always talk about how important it is to integrate them in a progressive fashion. It was the complete opposite with Dom. Thrown in the deep in end initially then wasn't supported enough after that incident with Totti. Result, confidence destroyed and had to go anywhere but this club. Shame I know, but I think that is one of the reasons he is not here again.
Anyway we could have this discussion from today until the cows fly. Fact is there is no enough support for these youngsters and that is shown throughout the league not just here. So its not easy. I think the only solution is either someone from overseas who has that mentality or the club to challenge the mindset and culture and start using them. Then you will have to consider short term failure, because having that approach is not optimal to winning titles short term.
I wouldn't have started Candreva simply because he is young and just came in. Too much pressure from the first game to perform.
But I completely understand your point about playing these kids. Actually this season is the best one to play them, so many injuries and players underperforming. Sadly we don't have a good structure or plan for them to play in or we just have no confidence. Then again that goes back to the point about the quality gap between the youth and the first team. Its not just a problem with us, its all over the league where only a few players are given the chance.
Criscito was partially destroyed by Ranieri. You always talk about how important it is to integrate them in a progressive fashion. It was the complete opposite with Dom. Thrown in the deep in end initially then wasn't supported enough after that incident with Totti. Result, confidence destroyed and had to go anywhere but this club. Shame I know, but I think that is one of the reasons he is not here again.
Anyway we could have this discussion from today until the cows fly. Fact is there is no enough support for these youngsters and that is shown throughout the league not just here. So its not easy. I think the only solution is either someone from overseas who has that mentality or the club to challenge the mindset and culture and start using them. Then you will have to consider short term failure, because having that approach is not optimal to winning titles short term.
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