Capital Punishment (7 Viewers)

Do you support Capital Punishment?

  • Yes i support Capital Punishment

  • No I dont support Capital Punishment

  • I Dont care much about the issue

  • Cannot Decide, In Some Cases Yes, Others No


Results are only viewable after voting.

Layce Erayce

Senior Member
Aug 11, 2002
9,116
#81
Geof said:
It sure is. Criminal law is there to keep a society peaceful.





Partly true. The judge wil try to even the "scores" by condemning the perpetrator to pay compensation to the family. This compensation has two goals:
- Compensate for the moral damage
- Compensate for the loss of money (ex: the victim used to work and win money for his family)

But of course, money won't give you back your wife/child/parent, and thus the scores will never be even.




Read this on the subject. it's quite intersesting. It's from Wikipedia.

Restorative justice assumes that the victim or their heirs or neighbors can be in some way restored to a condition "just as good as" before the criminal incident. Substantially it builds on traditions in common law and tort law that requires all who commit wrong to be penalized. In recent time these penalties that restorative justice advocates have included community service, restitution, and alternatives to imprisonment that keep the offender active in the community, and re-socialized him into society. Some suggest that it is a weak way to punish criminals who must be deterred. These critics are often proponents of retributive justice.

Retributive justice or the "eye for an eye" approach. Assuming that the victim or their heirs or neighbors have the right to do to the offender what was done to the victim. These ideas fuel support for capital punishment for murder, amputation for theft (as in some versions of the sharia).

Psychiatric imprisonment treats crime nominally as illness, and assumes that it can be treated by psychoanalysis, drugs, and other techniques associated with psychiatry and medicine, but in forcible confinement. It is more commonly associated with crime that does not appear to have animal emotion or human economic motives, nor even any clear benefit to the offender, but has idiosyncratic characteristics that make it hard for society to comprehend, thus hard to trust the individual if released into society.

Transformative justice does not assume that there is any reasonable comparison between the lives of victims nor offenders before and after the incident. It discourages such comparisons and measurements, and emphasizes the trust of the society in each member, including trust in the offender not to re-offend, and of the victim (or heirs) not to avenge.



I guess you're more in favour of retributive justice, while I'm more on the side of restorative (and in a lesser way, transformative) justice.

Very insightful information. +rep ;)

However, the goal of restorative justice is, once again, to keep society going and running- you can see that in what it aims to do. Its goal is not for total and complete justice between the two people involved. But your statement of forced compensation by the offender's part goes well in that direction.

I found it somewhat ironic that I was paired with Shari'a because I am against Shari'a principles for a number of reasons. Cutting a hand off for theft is not "eye for an eye" but it is worse. ;)

If you like, you can call me a barbarian and we'll end the discussion. ;) I learned a lot from this thread.
 

Buy on AliExpress.com

Geof

Senior Member
May 14, 2004
6,740
#82
Layce Erayce said:
Very insightful information. +rep ;)

However, the goal of restorative justice is, once again, to keep society going and running- you can see that in what it aims to do. Its goal is not for total and complete justice between the two people involved. But your statement of forced compensation by the offender's part goes well in that direction.

I found it somewhat ironic that I was paired with Shari'a because I am against Shari'a principles for a number of reasons. Cutting a hand off for theft is not "eye for an eye" but it is worse. ;)

If you like, you can call me a barbarian and we'll end the discussion. ;) I learned a lot from this thread.
barbarian! :weee:

just joking.

I thin we both made our points, and this dicussion can be closed. I'm happy to see that people with very different opinions can discuss in a peaceful way, even on this forum! (please note that the name of Del Piero hasn't even be mentioned!)

You get rep+ for the whole discussion.
 
OP
Snoop

Snoop

Sabet is a nasty virgin
Oct 2, 2001
28,186
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #84
    Geof said:
    barbarian! :weee:

    just joking.

    I thin we both made our points, and this dicussion can be closed. I'm happy to see that people with very different opinions can discuss in a peaceful way, even on this forum! (please note that the name of Del Piero hasn't even be mentioned!)

    You get rep+ for the whole discussion.

    No need to close Geof,I want to hear other members' opinions too :)
     

    Geof

    Senior Member
    May 14, 2004
    6,740
    #85
    Holygr4le said:
    And now that was ruined.
    lol

    snoop said:
    No need to close Geof,I want to hear other members' opinions too :)
    Oh but I'm not a mod, this thread stays open. I just wanted to say Josh and I finished our personal discussion. Of course everyone's opinion is welcome.
     
    Aug 1, 2003
    17,696
    #86
    :google: found:

    Before anything we need to state what our goal is. Is it to punish criminals? Religions say that people deserve punishment for various reasons and since they controlled society and human minds for a long time, it has been ingrained in us too, whether right or wrong, that punishing the wrong-doer is the goal of a legal system. That is wrong. Punishment is part of it but not the goal. The goal is to create a better society.

    Not all members of our society are loving and caring and concerned for the welfare of society and its members. Some of these members carry out actions that are detrimental to society and other individual members of society(reasons vary). These actions are what we call crime and these members are criminals. (The criminal can be a petty criminal or big corporate boss or even a president.) For protecting society and the other members of society we need to prevent these members from doing detrimental things. What do we do to stop them...?

    1) We appeal to morality

    Unfortunately, not all are persuaded ...

    So...

    2) We make laws stating certain actions, deemed detrimental (by some legislative body), will be rewarded with punishment. The punishment will vary and will be decided by the legislative body depending on the crime.

    There are two kinds of punishment:

    1) Non-isolation Punishments

    2) Isolation Punishment

    Non-Isolation punishments are for not so serious offences. These include monetary fines etc. For serious crimes we use the isolation punishment. Isolation Punishment removes individuals deemed threat to others from society.

    Isolation punishment is also of two forms:

    1) Temporary Isolation: Limited jail terms.

    2) Permanent Isolation: Life Imprisonment and the Death Penalty.

    Putting a dangerous member in jail isolates the individual from society. Temporary isolation is reserved for most offences. The temporary jail term might reform a criminal or might teach him not to do the same thing again if he does not wish to be jailed. Temporary isolation works well but if the negative effect on society is really bad we need to use longer isolation times... and maybe the permanent isolation will also be desired on instances if the individual poses too great a threat to others.

    Now jailing one for life effectively isolates an individual from society. Then do we still need the death penalty? And should we house them in a jail spending taxpayers money? Now comes the main discussion.

    We must remember our goal. It is not to punish but to prevent detrimental things happening in society. How do we deter certain individuals from harming others intentionally, if moral persuasion fails? One effective and time tested way is the threat of the punishment. The threat of punishment works as a good deterrent because we (most of us) act based upon an assessment of profit and loss. Depending on whether the profit or loss is greater, we decide on whether to do something or not. If the "getting caught" and the punishment seems to be a less loss than the benefit one might gain... then certain members of our society will do what we dread. Sometimes going to jail might for temporary or permanents isolation status might often be less of a deterrent. One good example is the Polly Klaas murder case. The killer of Polly Klaas (12) was in jail for kidnapping and rape and had a history of similar crimes. His jailing did not work as a deterrent and when he was let out on parole, he entered Polly Klaas' house and kidnapped and murdered her. For cases like this jail is a farce.

    Even life term (life term is not whole life) is not a good deterent for these people. Temporary jail or even the threat of being jailed for life is not a big deterrent. For such members of the society, it is undesirable to have them lose to endanger the rest of the community. Removing them permanently from society is the most effective way of protecting the society. One might suppose that permanent jail is the best solution but there are two problems.

    1) The expenses of feeding and housing becomes a burden to the people the criminal threatens. Tax payers should not have to pay to house criminals who are a terror to the community.

    2) It has no contribution to deter other potential criminals.

    This is where the death penalty works best. It is not only a good method of isolating the criminal at the extreme edge from the rest of society but is also a big deterrent. Avoiding death seems to be a pretty good argument for most humans to choose a "different" course of action. Death Penalty is thus a very strong deterrent. Through the fear of death many things have been established including many main stream religions. Why not use it for a good cause?

    Some feel that the threat of death is not really a deterrent... well I would hope they say that the next time they are taken on a long ride and stuck in a cement barrel to be buried at sea alive. Some also cite that in nations like the USA where death penalty is enforced, the crimes punishable by death has not decreased. True, but there are reasons for this. What we see in the US and many other nations is an effect of lag. There is a big time gap between the time when a crime is committed, a criminal is arrested and tried and sentenced to death AND when the sentence is carried out. This lag and the fact that the death penalty is carried out in an almost secretive manner, away from the public with only a press release to let the world know, causes a weak correlation in minds between the crime and the punishment of death. Also added to that, the death penalty is often skipped except in cases like Abu Jamal Mumia or Shaka in the USA, who some say are victims of a political witch burning campaign. Polly Klaas' murderer is still on deathrow and still kept alive.

    I will not say that the delay is all bad because we do not want our system to murder an innocent person. However, I must note that the lag does defeat the purpose of detering. Detering is highly desired; as the saying goes, prevention is the best cure. If we can cause the members who seek to harm to understand that the risk of punishment is greater than whatever benefit they may derive by powerful examples of enforcing the death penalty, we might achieve our goal. We shall need to punish less (not the goal) and we shall also have less crime (the goal).

    However, there will be those exceptions who will not operate with the same mindset as most and might not give the death penalty any thought. These individuals, in my opinion, will make good candidates for the examples which will both isolate the individual permanently and will also prevent many from doing the same undesirable things. The murderer of 12 year old Polly Klaas is one such individual.

    I see individuals, who are caught up in a new fad to be politically correct or to show how humane they are, calling for abolition. I see individuals who are caught up with religion seeking abolition without realizing their religion was founded upon killing. I think they are wrong. I would not support the abolition of the death penalty. It should be preserved to serve as a tool to protect the society and its members (not just a punishment). The death penalty is good for permanent isolation and for deterring other potential criminals.

    We should not forget our goal, to protect society and its members from other members, making a better society. I question the ethics of those who cry havoc in the name of the rights of criminals. What about the rights of the rest of us? We have the right to walk alone in the park or be in the subway at a late hour without having to worry of being robbed, killed or raped. We have the right to lay in bed safely without worrying whether the doors were locked properly or the alarms were set correctly.
     
    OP
    Snoop

    Snoop

    Sabet is a nasty virgin
    Oct 2, 2001
    28,186
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #87
    sallyinzaghi said:
    :google: found:

    Before anything we need to state what our goal is. Is it to punish criminals? Religions say that people deserve punishment for various reasons and since they controlled society and human minds for a long time, it has been ingrained in us too, whether right or wrong, that punishing the wrong-doer is the goal of a legal system. That is wrong. Punishment is part of it but not the goal. The goal is to create a better society.

    Not all members of our society are loving and caring and concerned for the welfare of society and its members. Some of these members carry out actions that are detrimental to society and other individual members of society(reasons vary). These actions are what we call crime and these members are criminals. (The criminal can be a petty criminal or big corporate boss or even a president.) For protecting society and the other members of society we need to prevent these members from doing detrimental things. What do we do to stop them...?

    1) We appeal to morality

    Unfortunately, not all are persuaded ...

    So...

    2) We make laws stating certain actions, deemed detrimental (by some legislative body), will be rewarded with punishment. The punishment will vary and will be decided by the legislative body depending on the crime.

    There are two kinds of punishment:

    1) Non-isolation Punishments

    2) Isolation Punishment

    Non-Isolation punishments are for not so serious offences. These include monetary fines etc. For serious crimes we use the isolation punishment. Isolation Punishment removes individuals deemed threat to others from society.

    Isolation punishment is also of two forms:

    1) Temporary Isolation: Limited jail terms.

    2) Permanent Isolation: Life Imprisonment and the Death Penalty.

    Putting a dangerous member in jail isolates the individual from society. Temporary isolation is reserved for most offences. The temporary jail term might reform a criminal or might teach him not to do the same thing again if he does not wish to be jailed. Temporary isolation works well but if the negative effect on society is really bad we need to use longer isolation times... and maybe the permanent isolation will also be desired on instances if the individual poses too great a threat to others.

    Now jailing one for life effectively isolates an individual from society. Then do we still need the death penalty? And should we house them in a jail spending taxpayers money? Now comes the main discussion.

    We must remember our goal. It is not to punish but to prevent detrimental things happening in society. How do we deter certain individuals from harming others intentionally, if moral persuasion fails? One effective and time tested way is the threat of the punishment. The threat of punishment works as a good deterrent because we (most of us) act based upon an assessment of profit and loss. Depending on whether the profit or loss is greater, we decide on whether to do something or not. If the "getting caught" and the punishment seems to be a less loss than the benefit one might gain... then certain members of our society will do what we dread. Sometimes going to jail might for temporary or permanents isolation status might often be less of a deterrent. One good example is the Polly Klaas murder case. The killer of Polly Klaas (12) was in jail for kidnapping and rape and had a history of similar crimes. His jailing did not work as a deterrent and when he was let out on parole, he entered Polly Klaas' house and kidnapped and murdered her. For cases like this jail is a farce.

    Even life term (life term is not whole life) is not a good deterent for these people. Temporary jail or even the threat of being jailed for life is not a big deterrent. For such members of the society, it is undesirable to have them lose to endanger the rest of the community. Removing them permanently from society is the most effective way of protecting the society. One might suppose that permanent jail is the best solution but there are two problems.

    1) The expenses of feeding and housing becomes a burden to the people the criminal threatens. Tax payers should not have to pay to house criminals who are a terror to the community.

    2) It has no contribution to deter other potential criminals.

    This is where the death penalty works best. It is not only a good method of isolating the criminal at the extreme edge from the rest of society but is also a big deterrent. Avoiding death seems to be a pretty good argument for most humans to choose a "different" course of action. Death Penalty is thus a very strong deterrent. Through the fear of death many things have been established including many main stream religions. Why not use it for a good cause?

    Some feel that the threat of death is not really a deterrent... well I would hope they say that the next time they are taken on a long ride and stuck in a cement barrel to be buried at sea alive. Some also cite that in nations like the USA where death penalty is enforced, the crimes punishable by death has not decreased. True, but there are reasons for this. What we see in the US and many other nations is an effect of lag. There is a big time gap between the time when a crime is committed, a criminal is arrested and tried and sentenced to death AND when the sentence is carried out. This lag and the fact that the death penalty is carried out in an almost secretive manner, away from the public with only a press release to let the world know, causes a weak correlation in minds between the crime and the punishment of death. Also added to that, the death penalty is often skipped except in cases like Abu Jamal Mumia or Shaka in the USA, who some say are victims of a political witch burning campaign. Polly Klaas' murderer is still on deathrow and still kept alive.

    I will not say that the delay is all bad because we do not want our system to murder an innocent person. However, I must note that the lag does defeat the purpose of detering. Detering is highly desired; as the saying goes, prevention is the best cure. If we can cause the members who seek to harm to understand that the risk of punishment is greater than whatever benefit they may derive by powerful examples of enforcing the death penalty, we might achieve our goal. We shall need to punish less (not the goal) and we shall also have less crime (the goal).

    However, there will be those exceptions who will not operate with the same mindset as most and might not give the death penalty any thought. These individuals, in my opinion, will make good candidates for the examples which will both isolate the individual permanently and will also prevent many from doing the same undesirable things. The murderer of 12 year old Polly Klaas is one such individual.

    I see individuals, who are caught up in a new fad to be politically correct or to show how humane they are, calling for abolition. I see individuals who are caught up with religion seeking abolition without realizing their religion was founded upon killing. I think they are wrong. I would not support the abolition of the death penalty. It should be preserved to serve as a tool to protect the society and its members (not just a punishment). The death penalty is good for permanent isolation and for deterring other potential criminals.

    We should not forget our goal, to protect society and its members from other members, making a better society. I question the ethics of those who cry havoc in the name of the rights of criminals. What about the rights of the rest of us? We have the right to walk alone in the park or be in the subway at a late hour without having to worry of being robbed, killed or raped. We have the right to lay in bed safely without worrying whether the doors were locked properly or the alarms were set correctly.

    man that was long.anyway,he is just with "death penalty" and gave some examples.Well I can reply you back,if the criminal has 12 rape cases,then you can't release him on parole for God's sake,ofcourse he is very dangerous,how would them let him out?? that's the System's error.:confused:

    And he said,citizen's taxes doesn't have to go to the criminals,oh yeah? how could he talk in the name of them,some doesn't agree with death penalty,but some are totally against it,and they feel very annoyed about it.Just like the taxes are going to war (bilion dollars) where most of them were against the war,nobody came and said,those taxes shouldn't spent on war.
    and btw,didn't those criminals also paid taxes in their lives?so that's ok if it's spent back on them..

    the last paragraph,again,that's wrong aproach. those who are against death penalty,are not asking the system to release them from prison,they are not claiming that criminals should not be jailed.you see the difference?
    he said he can't sleep in bed safely worrying whether the doors were locked properly or the alarms were set correctly?Again,that's the goverment/system's responisibility to keep the citizens safe from criminals.so what?let's kill all those in prison,so that we sleep safe in case they escape from jail :rolleyes:
     

    GordoDeCentral

    Diez
    Moderator
    Apr 14, 2005
    70,799
    #88
    Europe, with all its enlightenment, needs a lesson in the subject of self-governance. As far as humanity being implicated in the subject, they ought to ruminate that when selling arms to warring african countries. Point is the issue(not the act) of the death penalty is all pomp and no circumstance. If one is so worried about the death of the innocent it would be far wiser to direct those efforts to eradicating stagerring famine and need in most of the world. but the irony is those same people who clamor against the death penalty vote blok or haider...
     

    Slagathor

    Bedpan racing champion
    Jul 25, 2001
    22,708
    #89
    Altair said:
    Europe, with all its enlightenment, needs a lesson in the subject of self-governance. As far as humanity being implicated in the subject, they ought to ruminate that when selling arms to warring african countries. Point is the issue(not the act) of the death penalty is all pomp and no circumstance. If one is so worried about the death of the innocent it would be far wiser to direct those efforts to eradicating stagerring famine and need in most of the world.
    False analogy. There have definitely been reports of Dutch links in the sale of arms to dangerous states (such as chemicals to Iraq) but the people (businesspeople) resonsible for it have been or are in the process of being tried. That, in no way, reflects the people of the country. As for aid; Holland is among the biggest contributors of aid to the Third World; well ahead of nations such as the United States who could really make a difference if they put in the same effort.

    You want to talk humanity? Holland may be far from perfect, but I dare say that every other nation in the world (including 99% of the so called advanced and democratic West) has A LOT to learn from the Dutch model.

    but the irony is those same people who clamor against the death penalty vote blok or haider...
    Wrong. That would be the political parties who are in favour of reinstating the death penalty; and so are most of their voters. And the Vlaams Blok had to continue as "Vlaams Belang" because its stances were found undemocratic; their new mandate isn't nearly as shocking anymore. It's mediocrly interesting, even.

    As for Jörg Haider's FPÖ; you can scrape that one off your list. It's popularity is about equal to that of sewer rats nowadays.
     

    GordoDeCentral

    Diez
    Moderator
    Apr 14, 2005
    70,799
    #90
    thanks for the insight erik, my point is the issue is unnecessarily politicized. Someone had mentioned earlier in the thread that something like 4% in netherlands is for the reinstatement of death penalty, you have to admit that Blok gets more than that.
     

    Slagathor

    Bedpan racing champion
    Jul 25, 2001
    22,708
    #91
    Altair said:
    thanks for the insight erik, my point is the issue is unnecessarily politicized.
    I'll agree with you there

    Someone had mentioned earlier in the thread that something like 4% in netherlands is for the reinstatement of death penalty, you have to admit that Blok gets more than that.
    But... Vlaams Belang is a Belgian party, how does that relate? :undecide:
     

    mikhail

    Senior Member
    Jan 24, 2003
    9,576
    #92
    From today's New York Times

    Rushing to Execute in Texas


    The Supreme Court has held that it is unconstitutional to execute the mentally retarded, and Marvin Lee Wilson appears to fall into that category. But Mr. Wilson, who is on Texas' death row, may be executed anyway, because his lawyer missed a deadline, and the federal appeals court that rejected his claim last week is blind to the injustice of what is happening. Mr. Wilson's execution should be blocked. Beyond that, his case should cause Congress to stop its reckless campaign to make it even easier than it is now to carry out executions.

    Mr. Wilson, whose I.Q. was measured at 61, appears to meet the legal standard for mental retardation. The Constitution therefore prohibits him from being put to death. But the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit does not seem to care. It ruled last week that because his lawyer filed his legal papers late, he has forfeited his right to object.

    It is easy to see how Mr. Wilson's lawyer made a mistake. The morass of rules that have developed for when death row inmates must file papers in different state and federal courts makes occasional errors inevitable. Whatever the skills of Mr. Wilson's lawyer, the system as a whole is filled with overburdened, unenergetic and incompetent lawyers, as the Texas Defender Service documented in a report entitled "Lethal Indifference."

    It is the courts' job to ensure that inadequate lawyering does not lead to people who are not eligible for the death penalty, like Mr. Wilson, being executed. But the Fifth Circuit did not even bother to address his most critical claim: that a federal law about how cases are to be handled should not trump the Supreme Court's determination that the Constitution does not permit a whole class of people to be put to death.

    If a lawyer's slip-up can lead to the execution of someone who is exempt from capital punishment, the American justice system is diminished. Republicans in Congress are pushing for passage of the Streamlined Procedures Act, a bad law that would make it even more likely that mistakes are made in administering capital punishment. Congress should drop that bill and fix the flaws in the current system that allow Mr. Wilson to be headed toward an execution for which he is constitutionally ineligible.
     

    Cronios

    Juventolog
    Jun 7, 2004
    27,519
    #93
    There are ... individuals ... out there that:

    respect noone,
    fear nothing,
    follow no rules,
    the easiest way, is to "terminate" their existance and ignore them as a mathematical mistake of a perfect system.

    These are the living wounds of our society,
    because our society raised them,

    the most important thing isnt how they ended
    but how they begun...we have to focus more on eradicating the conditions wich gave birth to the abominations,
    a man's death cant be a triumph of humanity at any way...
     

    HelterSkelter

    Senior Member
    Apr 15, 2005
    20,595
    #94
    Over here,Capital Punishment does stand but there's a pretty good chance that it might be changed into lifelong imprisonment sometime soon.Naturally,the people calling for an end to Capital Punishment are human rights activists.Last night they had a debate on a local TV channel about it,and they had invited people who had lost a family member because of murder etc.Those peoples wanted capital punishment for the murders and they were not willing to accept anything else.Perhaps they were getting carried away by emotion..or perhaps they were right.The human rights activists on the show argued about how the crime rates in countries that dont have capital punishment is less than countries that do have capital punishment..while people in favour fo capital punishment argued that you need to curb down crime by making people fearful of the consequences.

    What do you people think about the whole Capital Punishment bit?Is it right,or is it wrong?
     

    Lion

    King of Tuz
    Jan 24, 2007
    36,185
    #95
    It depends. If say someone killed a guy because he walked on this guy doing his wife, then no.

    But say it's a guy who raped then killed 10 little girls, then no, don't kill him. Torture him. Whip him everyday for 10 years. electrocute him for every person that he killed. That's how you deal punishment, and that's how you scare criminals.
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    116,018
    #96
    I don't know. Hammurabi would lobby for something very similar to capital punishment, yet much more uncivil. George W. Bush would argue for capital punishment for first degree murder in some cases, but then change his viewpoint around when someone other than a United States citizen commits a crime or religious heresy or have the wrong colored skin (which means just shoot them in the street). Someone such as Bill Clinton would refrain from sending many terrible perps to their deaths, yet argue that different stages of birth constitute different stages of life and therefore capital punishment against babies is justified as long as they haven't "hit the bar", so to speak.

    I am frankly sick about this discussion in this country. No matter what, there will always be a give and take and some innocent person will be killed even though he looks guilty when he sits there on the chair. It doesn't really matter. Innocent people will die, guilty people will die, that's what you call life.

    If it was up to me, instead of making capital punishment legislature such a big expenditure session in Congress, I'd spend more time making sure innocent people don't killed off in the system, whether it be in Federal prison or out there in the "hoods" Republicans despise.
     

    V

    Senior Member
    Jun 8, 2005
    20,110
    #98
    • V

      V

    It depends. If say someone killed a guy because he walked on this guy doing his wife, then no.

    But say it's a guy who raped then killed 10 little girls, then no, don't kill him. Torture him. Whip him everyday for 10 years. electrocute him for every person that he killed. That's how you deal punishment, and that's how you scare criminals.
    Thanks for summing it up for me.
     

    Cronios

    Juventolog
    Jun 7, 2004
    27,519
    In savage and ruthless societies like the one in US, where law and order have little meaning, YES. :weee:
    They have no option, they need to use this punishment, as an intimidating tool, to help them reserve the control!

    Capital punishment has no place in post dark-age/medieval Europe though!
    We ve already burned all the heretics...
     

    Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 7)