Calciopoli or Morattopoli.. inter fake orgasm (24 Viewers)

[gsol]

I see your questions as utterly pointless and easily ignorable given the amount of times you have evaded direct questions. I can see you are trying to put me in a position where I can contradict something that I have previously stated and you are again dwelling on opinions and hypothetical scenarios but whatever. I’ll answer but please refrain from singing your own praises regarding debating skills.

Match fixing is one form of cheating. There are many other ways of cheating (steroids for example) but match fixing entails altering the result of a game by obtaining the co-operation of a referee, linesmen and or an adversary.

The major difference between attempted match fixing and match fixing is succeeding in the referee/adversary influencing. The punishment should be the same for the offender if proven guilty since the intentions are exactly the same.

Article 1 and Article 6 has nothing to do with that though since attempted match fixing and match fixing both fall into Article 6 which Juventus was found not guilty of. Article 1 is unsportsmanlike conduct that has nothing to do with results and standings but rather respect, etiquette, and presentation.

Regarding whether or not to demote teams for trying to “curry” referees…this is totally opinion based and therefore meaningless unless you at least get specific. What exactly is the offence? You can “curry” a referee by complimenting his haircut and you can do it by buying him a Rolex (like Sensi did) or send him to Switzerland for a hair transplant (like Berlusconi did). Give me a specific example and I’ll answer your question.

 

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[Cuti]

Would speeding up the process of getting a Maserati from 2 years to 6 months considered "currying"?

 

[gsol]

Excellent example. The way that incident was presented it looked like referees were receiving shiny exotics for awarding penalties to the team. I challenge anyone to look at that incident and ignore the names. In the end, especially those that know how Italy works, where I would say “so and so says hello” at the bakery just to avoid waiting for bread, will ultimately see the issue for what it is...nothing.

An audit trail showed that the vehicle was paid by the man who ordered it and currently still owns it (not Moggi). The car was not for a referee or even a person involved in the sporting world at all. It was for a relative of a referee designer.

A favor was asked based on the fact that Moggi had at least the right contacts at FIAT to make that type of request. Was anything given in return?

There is never a promise nor a follow up call where Pairetto requests leniency or favoritism for Moggi’s squad afterwards.

Where is the corruption or the cheating there? A guy needed a favor, who had a dad, that knew a guy, that knew some people who could speed shit up. Welcome to Italy. Frankly welcome to the real world. Anyone here who has avoided waiting in line at a club because they knew a bouncer is guilty of the same type of activity that Pairetto engaged in.

In the end the reason I say that is not an offence is because there was never a link identified between the favor Moggi did for Pairetto’s son and a referee in a Juventus game. In fact after that string of calls there is hardly any mention of Juventus in Pairetto’s calls.

The judges agreed saw it as I see it because the sentence explains clearly that there was nothing sinister in the event.

 

[ILCT]

great work defending the cause gsol. i, like yourself am completely convinced this was all a scam to ultimatly give inter something that's alluded them for almost 2 decades prior to this.

that being said, about article 6. i could've sworn i read in some of the transcripts, quite some time ago mind you, they were found guilty of a revised "article 6", however it was derived primarily of article 1 elements.

not that i'm surprised this could fly in italy, i lived there for 5 years, have visited regularly, thus am quite familiar with what transpires there.

 

[Snoop]

god! another gsol fan

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

yeah, i cant believe i live in the same city as two of them

 

[Snoop]

you should meet them Bes?

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

yeah, why not

 

[ILCT]

at the end of the day, i'm not naive to think juve did nothing wrong in this whole ordeal. it is italy in the end, the most corrupt country in the industrialized world.

my point is if they did something wrong, the prosecutors really didn't communicate it well enough (huge overstatement). but then again, seeing how thirsty public opinion, the media and the people with the vested interests were for any shread of evidence.....it doesn't surprise me they were convicted without really anything conclusive. from what i can tell, it was nothing but a smear campaign/witch hunt.

oh and btw, i'll be more than happy to discuss this in more detail with any of my fellow torontini over a soda pop at the BMO.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

and that should be the end of that

 

[ILCT]

and that should be the end of that

riiiiiiiiiiight

 

[gsol]

Ya you read right. It was called Articolo Strutturato which was wrong for two reasons.

a) It stated that multiple article 1 infractions equalled a fixed match (article 6). Essentially they told the public that 3 oranges equalled a potato. Of course the public paid little attention to the details because the important thing was that Juve was going to Serie B.

b) The law was created for the sole purpose of being applied to Juventus and then abolished. This was unconstitutional because Juventus could only be tried for the offences according to the laws at the time of the infractions.

Needless to say this is one of the points that will be made in the appeals.

 

[ILCT]

Ya you read right. It was called Articolo Strutturato which was wrong for two reasons.

a) It stated that multiple article 1 infractions equalled a fixed match (article 6). Essentially they told the public that 3 oranges equalled a potato. Of course the public paid little attention to the details because the important thing was that Juve was going to Serie B.

b) The law was created for the sole purpose of being applied to Juventus and then abolished. This was unconstitutional because Juventus could only be tried for the offences according to the laws at the time of the infractions.

Needless to say this is one of the points that will be made in the appeals.

yeah i heard that but i found it extremely difficult to determine which article 1 infractions equated to the article 6. would you have a link, one preferably not from la gazzetta del inter?

 

[gsol]

There was no logic to it. They never specified what infractions were added up. It was just a general ruling. There is no link that I know of that explains it better than the sentence itself. If you need the link I'll post it again. Or you can PM me your email address and I'll send it to you.

 

[denco]

I see your questions as utterly pointless and easily ignorable given the amount of times you have evaded direct questions. I can see you are trying to put me in a position where I can contradict something that I have previously stated and you are again dwelling on opinions and hypothetical scenarios but whatever. I’ll answer but please refrain from singing your own praises regarding debating skills.

Match fixing is one form of cheating. There are many other ways of cheating (steroids for example) but match fixing entails altering the result of a game by obtaining the co-operation of a referee, linesmen and or an adversary.

The major difference between attempted match fixing and match fixing is succeeding in the referee/adversary influencing. The punishment should be the same for the offender if proven guilty since the intentions are exactly the same.

Article 1 and Article 6 has nothing to do with that though since attempted match fixing and match fixing both fall into Article 6 which Juventus was found not guilty of. Article 1 is unsportsmanlike conduct that has nothing to do with results and standings but rather respect, etiquette, and presentation.

Regarding whether or not to demote teams for trying to “curry” referees…this is totally opinion based and therefore meaningless unless you at least get specific. What exactly is the offence? You can “curry” a referee by complimenting his haircut and you can do it by buying him a Rolex (like Sensi did) or send him to Switzerland for a hair transplant (like Berlusconi did). Give me a specific example and I’ll answer your question.

Missing the point as always. Match-fixing in my opinion usally involves betting and syndicates and al of that nonsense and money is usually the be all andf end all of that.

Now I am not a paid up member of Moggi fan club and no way would he write the books of decency and ethics but I do not think for 1 minute that he would fix a game for monetary gain.

Reading about the chap it is easy to see that he had a lot of charm and knew the right people so he was able to influence referees to favour Juventus.

That is not match-fixing cos match-fixing involves getting the result right, not just a victory, draw or loss but it has to be betting eg that juventus would beat siena 3-0 or inter would beat reginna 5-1 that is where the money is.

For all his faults, I dont think that Moggi would be involved in something like that as he does not come accross as a selfish scum of the earth.

However I do believe that he had referees do him favours for Juventus and that is also an offence and in my view punishable by demotion.

I was reading through another thread on here that members were posting artciles as everything was unfolding and Moggi inhis 1st interview was talking about he did not create the system blah blah blah.

He went on to state that all this came out when Berlusconi invited him to join Milan and he said Berlusconi should give him time to think about it but before he knew it the phone calls were leaked and made public.

He was alluding that Berlusconi was the 1 that started the ball rolling so I amnot sure how Moratti came into play.

The GEA agency is another 1 that you have lightly brushed aside that I cannot as Moggi's son had the names and phone numbers of 200 players plying their trade in SerieA and some managers as well.

That in effect means that Moggi also had their numbers. How that cann happen is a puzzler but that is Italy for ya where Collina is allowed to referee Lazio's games.

I dont know why you guys keep talking about money like money is more powerful that power and connections.

Why would Moggi have to offer money if he can offer so much more to referees like connections with important people within and outside football.
Amateurs that offer 40,000 rolexes, seriously what is that about?

Also it was stated that in 2004 25 players missed games againstus due to suspensions and its no exaggeration cos i watched us that season and always wondered why key players missed our game.

Just so you know that I don't take everything said about Moggi seriously whether they are true or not, there were stories that he fucked up Fiorentina 2004/05 season cos they were gonna go in a certain direction that would adversely affect Juventus so he got referees to jeopardise their season and they found themselves in relegation until 4 games to go where they won all and by this time they had abandined the project.

That sounds too far-fetched to me so I ignore that just as I ignored the nonsense about Moggi telling Lippi who to pick when he was Italy's manager, whats significant about that?

Then the new arcticles about Moggi still telling Secco or whoever who to buy or not to buy, so?

I also read that since the scandal we have lost over 1m fans and people like you say they are not true fans.

They did not abandon the club because they are playing in serieB, they abandoned the club because they were found to have been cheating all these years. As for mots of them its a matter of principle but never mind we have 3000 shouting WE WUZ ROBBED AND MORATTI IS THE CAUSE on Juventus forums and patting themselves on the back because they get 1 or 2 juventus supporters agreeing with them. BACK OF THE NET.

 

[Bozi]

great work defending the cause gsol. i, like yourself am completely convinced this was all a scam to ultimatly give inter something that's alluded them for almost 2 decades prior to this

i love this, you seem to be missing a huge point!
do i think Juve were screwed over? hell yes
do i think inter, milan and the rest were as guilty as we were?yes
do i think there was a conspiracy to hand inter the title?in a way,yes

do i think Juve were innocent?NO

and i will tell you why,everybody here, and pretty much everybody who observed calcio could see taht the big teams get the decisions. however this happend in every league,come to scotland and ask anybosy other tahna rangers or celtic fan if they think the refs are biiased and you will find conspiracy theorists on every corner.the simple fact is the top teams get the desicions in their favour EVERYWHERE.

in italy though there was, and it has been proved,a number of shady dealings going on. all of the top teams have been implicated and yet we were the ones who were screwed over,is taht right?no. but it is naiive to think we were innocent.

it was probably easier to pin everything on juve(and in partivular moggi) simply because we all knew that moggi was a shady character. when uli hoeness called moggi mafioso we all laughed and joked about it, we all knew moggi had aknack of doing the impossible and we all turned a blind eye to what he was capable of. when this all blew up everybody was quick to be suspicious of moggi and juve becasue of this. you reap what you sew in life and moggi payed for his underhand tactics.

were juve wronged?yes! but we should not view her as an innocent by any stretch of the immagination

 

[Seven]

I don't like to say it, but Totti got it right:

"Qualcosa sotto c'è."

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

can mr. know it all translate it for we ignorant people

 

[Dostoevsky]

"Something is under"


or something like that.

 

[gsol]

to Denco

"Reading about the chap it is easy to see that he had a lot of charm and knew the right people so he was able to influence referees to favour Juventus."

Ya, maybe he played footsies and put his tongue in their ears too. He must have been really charming when he went into Paparesta's locker room and trashed the shit out of him.


"However I do believe that he had referees do him favors for Juventus and that is also an offence and in my view punishable by demotion."

If this is what you want to think then fine. It's based on little more than the usual "I saw refs make mistakes in our favor" mentality which is dismantled when looking at the big picture. Referees made mistakes for everyone so either they were doing favors for everyone or no one. In the end if you favor everyone, you really aren't favoring anyone at all. I've heard the "Juve got more help" routine but even that is based on bias. Third party analysts always showed equilibrium regarding referee errors especially regarding top clubs. If you think Juve should have been demoted for that then I think all Serie A would have to be relegated to B and all of B to C1 and so on.

He wasn't blaming Berlusconi. That was taken out of context. He very publically supports Berlusconi's government (I hate that). He was saying that if he had been at Milan he would have been protected by Berlusconi (like Galliani Was).



I don't think I lightly brushed aside GEA. Actually I think I am among the few who really took the time to look at it. I never once said their was no conflict of interest. I just elaborated on where the conflicts were. Ya Juve had some, but minimal compared to the big picture. GEA represents 200 players (a bit more) but who were they? Did they play for Italian clubs? Did they play in Seria A? How many represented rival clubs? I looked at all that. Serie A and B alone have 1000 players and GEA had 200 and something but many were out of Italy entirely. Many were players you'd never recognize. Why was GEA such a big deal and the agencies of the other 800 players in Italy weren't so much as mentioned?

In the end it was because of Moggi but the real conflict of interest was far bigger Denco. Geronzi has a massive interest in both roman clubs through Capitalia and owner 64% of GEA World. The remaining 36% was comprised of many groups all tied to soccer including teh FIAT Group (Juve) but the Fininvest (Milan), Saras (Inter), Giocchi di Carnevale (Genoa), Parmalat (you get the picture). It was another excuse Denco. Another mean to smear Moggi and Juve. Looking at the big picture you can't help think "if it was really all so wrong why did no other club pay for it?". Almost every club had a piece of GEA and Roma/Lazio the lion's share.


"Also it was stated that in 2004 25 players missed games againstus due to suspensions and its no exaggeration cos i watched us that season and always wondered why key players missed our game."

That goes both ways. I recall Ibra being suspended for Juve's game with Milan as well. In any case when that came up in trial it was determined that the suspensions were issued correctly. Furthermore I recall reading an interview with (I believe Cagni of Empoli at the time) a coach that I really wish I kept that made a lot of sense. He stated that as the coach of a smaller club he would intentionally tell his booked players to get a double booking ahead of a clash with a top club so that the key players would be missing in a game likely to end in a loss anyway and then have a full squad again in the following week where the team stood a chance. Did they all think that way? No idea. Can't argue with the logic though. In any case the court clearly stated that the yellow cards were not orchestrated.

"Just so you know that I don't take everything said about Moggi seriously whether they are true or not, there were stories that he fucked up Fiorentina 2004/05 season cos they were gonna go in a certain direction that would adversely affect Juventus so he got referees to jeopardize their season and they found themselves in relegation until 4 games to go where they won all and by this time they had abandoned the project."

There are actually calls that suggest this may be true but you got the signals crossed. The Della Valle's of Fiorentina were going against Carraro and Galliani in the elections of the league and federation and Galliani had lunch with them and apparantly sent things straight. They were very apologetic in some calls stating that they will never go against galliani and Carraro again. In any case, Moggi doesn't pop up.

"I ignored the nonsense about Moggi telling Lippi who to pick when he was Italy's manager, whats significant about that?"

Good, he told Lippi he should bring Miccoli...did Miccoli go? Enough said.


Regarding the lost fans, they abandoned. Enough said. They are not true fans. For me it's a question of principle too. Even if they were guilty cheats I would accept it and move on but always as a Juventino. Don't downplay how many of us know we were screwed either Denco. You know that 3000 make up the class action suit but the Ultras that lifted massive banners that read "28" and "29", the tens oft housands that marched in Turin, Roma, and Napoli, and the countless web forums which I have posted here show that the numbers go well above 3000.