what happened with Roma and Lazio's finance/mercato numbers being played with? I heard there was a decision made yesterday.
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Calciopoli or Morattopoli.. inter fake orgasm (40 Viewers)
- Thread starter gsol
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Nope not really. It is pretty obvious how into yourself you are. But that is neither here nor there. As Anthony Hamilton once said "Come back to me!!! Charlene". You probably have no idea what that means. Applied to this case it means let's get the thread back on track. Post something you think is informative and we will tell you what we think about it. Sound good?
If they seriously don't have any legal proof, then they don't have any legal proof for punishment. But the thing is, they did have some proof with regards to something, just seemingly not enough to throw us down to Serie B. But then again, we don't know what else is lurking in the background, so nobody really knows. I'm not willing to state we're totally innocent without knowing everything, however.
I didn't head anything about that. It's obvious something fishy is going on there, especially with Lottito, but nobody knows about that either. Fruitful information from FIGC is like a terrorist... it's hard to capture.
I didn't head anything about that. It's obvious something fishy is going on there, especially with Lottito, but nobody knows about that either. Fruitful information from FIGC is like a terrorist... it's hard to capture.
yep, here it is
Doping amministrativo: Roma condannata, Lazio assolta
13:46 del 30 ottobre
Oggi la Decima sezione penale del Tribunale di Roma, a conclusione del processo per "doping amministrativo" scaturito dalle irregolarità che secondo l'accusa caratterizzarono i bilanci del 2001 e 2002 di Roma e Lazio, ha emesso le sentenze. Condanna ad una sanzione di 60.000 euro per illecito amministrativo alla Roma; assoluzione dalla stessa imputazione per la Lazio; assoluzione piena per Sergio Cragnotti dall'accusa di false comunicazioni sociali; assoluzione piena tranne che per un episodio per il quale è stata dichiarata la prescrizione, dalla stessa imputazione per Franco Sensi.
Doping amministrativo: Gazzoni 'Sentenza Roma vergognosa'
16:42 del 31 ottobre
Durissime parole dell'ex presidente del Bologna Giuseppe Gazzoni Frascara sulla sentenza che ieri ha assolto la Lazio e solo multato la Roma per falso in bilancio. "Siamo alle solite - ha dichiarato Gazzoni in un comunicato -, ancora una volta si è persa l'occasione di dare un segnale forte che le cose nel calcio stanno cambiando. Con la sentenza emessa ieri dalla decima sezione del Tribunale penale della capitale presieduta da Luigi Fiasconaro è stata data un'ennesima prova di una vergogna nazionale che si cerca di minimizzare in tutti i modi. Nessun addebito per il presidente della Roma Franco Sensi e una sanzione per la squadra di soli 60 mila euro contro i 480 mila richiesti a suo tempo dal pm Luca Palmara per i fatti avvenuti fra il 2001 e il 2002, assoluzione per la Lazio e per il suo ex Presidente Sergio Cragnotti. Questa sarebbe la risposta?. Ricordo che nella stagione 2003/2004 il Bologna perse in casa 4-0 con la Roma che all'epoca non pagava l'Irpef (alcune decine di milioni di euro), mentre l'anno dopo, non furono in grado di batterci pur essendo, noi, rimasti in 9: avevano cominciato a pagare la loro quota di Irpef come gli altri...". "Nonostante Calciopoli - prosegue la nota -, mi spaventa ancora una volta, il fatto che nulla sta cambiato e che tutto piano piano stia tornando alla normalità. Il mondo del calcio ha bisogno di una profonda epurazione e di una cosciente moralizzazione. E fa specie la dichiarazione di Moggi di qualche giorno fa che vorrebbe rientrare nel mondo del calcio".
gsol can you translate this please. I'm a bit busy atm.
Doping amministrativo: Roma condannata, Lazio assolta
13:46 del 30 ottobre
Oggi la Decima sezione penale del Tribunale di Roma, a conclusione del processo per "doping amministrativo" scaturito dalle irregolarità che secondo l'accusa caratterizzarono i bilanci del 2001 e 2002 di Roma e Lazio, ha emesso le sentenze. Condanna ad una sanzione di 60.000 euro per illecito amministrativo alla Roma; assoluzione dalla stessa imputazione per la Lazio; assoluzione piena per Sergio Cragnotti dall'accusa di false comunicazioni sociali; assoluzione piena tranne che per un episodio per il quale è stata dichiarata la prescrizione, dalla stessa imputazione per Franco Sensi.
Doping amministrativo: Gazzoni 'Sentenza Roma vergognosa'
16:42 del 31 ottobre
Durissime parole dell'ex presidente del Bologna Giuseppe Gazzoni Frascara sulla sentenza che ieri ha assolto la Lazio e solo multato la Roma per falso in bilancio. "Siamo alle solite - ha dichiarato Gazzoni in un comunicato -, ancora una volta si è persa l'occasione di dare un segnale forte che le cose nel calcio stanno cambiando. Con la sentenza emessa ieri dalla decima sezione del Tribunale penale della capitale presieduta da Luigi Fiasconaro è stata data un'ennesima prova di una vergogna nazionale che si cerca di minimizzare in tutti i modi. Nessun addebito per il presidente della Roma Franco Sensi e una sanzione per la squadra di soli 60 mila euro contro i 480 mila richiesti a suo tempo dal pm Luca Palmara per i fatti avvenuti fra il 2001 e il 2002, assoluzione per la Lazio e per il suo ex Presidente Sergio Cragnotti. Questa sarebbe la risposta?. Ricordo che nella stagione 2003/2004 il Bologna perse in casa 4-0 con la Roma che all'epoca non pagava l'Irpef (alcune decine di milioni di euro), mentre l'anno dopo, non furono in grado di batterci pur essendo, noi, rimasti in 9: avevano cominciato a pagare la loro quota di Irpef come gli altri...". "Nonostante Calciopoli - prosegue la nota -, mi spaventa ancora una volta, il fatto che nulla sta cambiato e che tutto piano piano stia tornando alla normalità. Il mondo del calcio ha bisogno di una profonda epurazione e di una cosciente moralizzazione. E fa specie la dichiarazione di Moggi di qualche giorno fa che vorrebbe rientrare nel mondo del calcio".
gsol can you translate this please. I'm a bit busy atm.
Too long. Long story short they got away with it. The charges against the teams were many spaning a few seasons (many individuals as well). The case was very cut and dry regarding accounting irregularities and the sentence for this could be relegation.
Instead Lazio were absolved entirely for every charge but one. The other charge was archived as too old a case and out of statute. Roma were absolved of everything but one charge and ordered to pay a fine.
This is pretty scandalous. Other teams with irregular books were relegated in the past (Napoli, Torino, Salernitana, etc.).
According to this Roma weren't even paying Income Taxes which is a federal offence. I think its fairly obvious that both teams are being protected by its investors. Keep in mind Capitalia has a huge stake in both teams and also sponsors much of Italian soccer.
thanks enron. i appreciate your input on the issue and agree with you that denco has argued very well. I on the other hand have only pointed the obvious 
By the way I have to disagree when people say there are a million reasons for them to hide our guilt. That whole case happened to prove Juve was guilty and get them out of the way temporarily. After all that effort they hid the proof? There's no logic in that.
I may be wrong here but when the moggipoli first broke out and it came to be termed Moggi sysytem
Didn't the "great man" say that he had no choice but to do it to protect Juventus? That he was not the only 1 doing it but he came embroiled in it because we were up against mega powers?
Please if this is true, what exactly was he talking about if we are in fact inoocent of any wrong doing?
Yes, yes , yes I have not got any evidence to provide via links or wiretaps or any of that but my evidence is my eyes.
I have watched games over the years involving Juventus in serieA and Juve in Europe and sometimes I have physically cringed at the decisions we have been given in the past.
So when it came out about , I was not utterly surprised.
You see if it comes out in the future that Manchester United , Barcelona, Real madrid and Milan have been favoured by the authorities because they have bribed or whatever, I will be shocked but I won't be surprised.
Some of the arguments here seem to be because we were not alone in benefiting from fraud, then we are not guilty.
Not guilty does not mean innocent, it just means it could not be proved but I have no idea what came out in the case and frankly my dear I don't give a damn (well if we are gonna do movie quotes).
I am 1 of those people that completely abhors injustices but Juventus in my eyes are not innocent so I cannot say we were unfairly treated.
If it pleases some people to absolve Juve of any blame and want to believe in so called evidence then good luck to ya.
I don't need evidence or wiretaps to tell me that shit smells and I do not have to provide evidence that it does either.
It seems that Gsol is saying that we were brought down essentially for financial reasons , mainly because Moggi and Giraudo did not want to play ball and now that they are out of the picture, all those companies that fought so hard to put us in serieB are now in partnership with us.
It is not like we are talking about a hostile takeover of a 1-man company with members of a few thousand, we are talking about relegating the most successful side in Italy with millions of fans just because they had the power to do so and of course they found a way to get noone but gsol and a few people to just take it on the chin.
Yes this is Italy where most things allegedly go but that in itself is a stereotype that people like gsol can use to their advantagewhenever they want to spout out injustice.
I don't care where Juve is based, I dont care if we do not have a Berlusconi type character , i do care that we have loads of fans, and i do care that we are not a small club and it is IMPOSSIBLE to relegate us for no other reason than to get Moggi and Giruado out of the way.
Another thing why did Moggi lock up Paparesta in bathroom or loo? Surely referees have made bad decisions against us in the past so why that particular case? Could it be that Paparesta went against what was agreed or why lese would he keep it quiet?
You have to think about these things and I have said it before the deeper you dig, the less you are going to like what you find.
I have totally gone against Athletics because of the drug intake and the amount of personalities involved, I don't wanna know how much nonsense we have been involved with as the memories I have, id hate to see them tainted if the whole truth did come out as I am pretty sure I would not like it
Didn't the "great man" say that he had no choice but to do it to protect Juventus? That he was not the only 1 doing it but he came embroiled in it because we were up against mega powers?
Please if this is true, what exactly was he talking about if we are in fact inoocent of any wrong doing?
Yes, yes , yes I have not got any evidence to provide via links or wiretaps or any of that but my evidence is my eyes.
I have watched games over the years involving Juventus in serieA and Juve in Europe and sometimes I have physically cringed at the decisions we have been given in the past.
So when it came out about , I was not utterly surprised.
You see if it comes out in the future that Manchester United , Barcelona, Real madrid and Milan have been favoured by the authorities because they have bribed or whatever, I will be shocked but I won't be surprised.
Some of the arguments here seem to be because we were not alone in benefiting from fraud, then we are not guilty.
Not guilty does not mean innocent, it just means it could not be proved but I have no idea what came out in the case and frankly my dear I don't give a damn (well if we are gonna do movie quotes).
I am 1 of those people that completely abhors injustices but Juventus in my eyes are not innocent so I cannot say we were unfairly treated.
If it pleases some people to absolve Juve of any blame and want to believe in so called evidence then good luck to ya.
I don't need evidence or wiretaps to tell me that shit smells and I do not have to provide evidence that it does either.
It seems that Gsol is saying that we were brought down essentially for financial reasons , mainly because Moggi and Giraudo did not want to play ball and now that they are out of the picture, all those companies that fought so hard to put us in serieB are now in partnership with us.
It is not like we are talking about a hostile takeover of a 1-man company with members of a few thousand, we are talking about relegating the most successful side in Italy with millions of fans just because they had the power to do so and of course they found a way to get noone but gsol and a few people to just take it on the chin.
Yes this is Italy where most things allegedly go but that in itself is a stereotype that people like gsol can use to their advantagewhenever they want to spout out injustice.
I don't care where Juve is based, I dont care if we do not have a Berlusconi type character , i do care that we have loads of fans, and i do care that we are not a small club and it is IMPOSSIBLE to relegate us for no other reason than to get Moggi and Giruado out of the way.
Another thing why did Moggi lock up Paparesta in bathroom or loo? Surely referees have made bad decisions against us in the past so why that particular case? Could it be that Paparesta went against what was agreed or why lese would he keep it quiet?
You have to think about these things and I have said it before the deeper you dig, the less you are going to like what you find.
I have totally gone against Athletics because of the drug intake and the amount of personalities involved, I don't wanna know how much nonsense we have been involved with as the memories I have, id hate to see them tainted if the whole truth did come out as I am pretty sure I would not like it
So I post this & instead of showing your superior calciopoli knowledge you come back with;
I have defended you a few times in this (& countless other threads) but more & more you talk down to people who deserve better. Maybe if you'd been on here years, you wouldnt get shot at so often. Maybe if you put the same effort into all your posts. But it seems to me you argue points you want to, the rest you just put things like "well your not a true fan" or similar. Bes (& plenty of others) have been here long enough for his opinion to be respected gsol, no matter who has superior knowledge of calciopoli or anything else, & it should be always this way, not someone with less than 200 posts (or even less than 700 like me) telling them they dont know shit & aren't proper fans. I have a 4 year old son who obv cant understand a thing about Calciopoli, but he's still a true biaconeri, no matter what you or anyone else says. I do speak fluent Italian, I am Italian & I do take an interest in calciopoli. To paraphrase your good self, what pisses me off is people who start posting like experts once we're back in A, saying its all a big conspiracy. While some of this is valid, Rossi's role for example, you just seem hell bent on going too far, when the evidence proves that Moggi did solicit favours from refs. No it wasn't to the point of bribery, no it wasnt match fixing, it was favours, mafia style favours. We got caught with our pants down. Yes other clubs did too, & yes we were punished too harshly while others walked away pretty free. Yes some of this was down to Berlusconi's media control. Please gsol, just look at somethings you post, & if you cant get along & show respect to some people, I have to wonder why you would continue to post in these forums yourself when we all are so un-educated?
I have defended you a few times in this (& countless other threads) but more & more you talk down to people who deserve better. Maybe if you'd been on here years, you wouldnt get shot at so often. Maybe if you put the same effort into all your posts. But it seems to me you argue points you want to, the rest you just put things like "well your not a true fan" or similar. Bes (& plenty of others) have been here long enough for his opinion to be respected gsol, no matter who has superior knowledge of calciopoli or anything else, & it should be always this way, not someone with less than 200 posts (or even less than 700 like me) telling them they dont know shit & aren't proper fans. I have a 4 year old son who obv cant understand a thing about Calciopoli, but he's still a true biaconeri, no matter what you or anyone else says. I do speak fluent Italian, I am Italian & I do take an interest in calciopoli. To paraphrase your good self, what pisses me off is people who start posting like experts once we're back in A, saying its all a big conspiracy. While some of this is valid, Rossi's role for example, you just seem hell bent on going too far, when the evidence proves that Moggi did solicit favours from refs. No it wasn't to the point of bribery, no it wasnt match fixing, it was favours, mafia style favours. We got caught with our pants down. Yes other clubs did too, & yes we were punished too harshly while others walked away pretty free. Yes some of this was down to Berlusconi's media control. Please gsol, just look at somethings you post, & if you cant get along & show respect to some people, I have to wonder why you would continue to post in these forums yourself when we all are so un-educated?
from gsol
The Paparesta deal is easy and stupid. Paparesta made terrible calls against Juventus in favour of Reggina (ignored penalty and two annulled goals). After the game Moggi went into the locker to room with Giraudo and yelled at Paparesta. It should be noted that according to league rules, directors are allowed to go into the referee locker room before and after a game but not during. In this case no harm done since it was after the game.
Moggi yelled at Paparesta and the linesmen (Coppelli who was found on the phone taking instructions from Milan's Meani on how to keep the flag down for Milan and up for others) and Di Mauro in an embarrassing fashion.
Moggi later made a crucial error. In a phone call afterwards he claimed that he locked the referees in the locker room, boarded a plane and left. Eye witness accounts including Paparesta's testimony to the court (which I have and can send to anyone interested) do not state that he or anyone else was ever trapped in a locker room. In addition, stadium surveillance recordings show Paparesta leaving at the normal hour.
Unfortunately Moggi’s attempt at sounding tougher than he was backfired as the Gazetta got the recording and publicized it. The declaration from Chief Investigator Borelli and testimony of Paparesta himself (I have both if anyone is interested) didn’t make the headlines. Moggi’s charges for “Unlawful Detainment” of Paparesta, Di Mauro, and Coppelli were all dropped. No one wrote about it though.
The day after the game Paparesta called Moggi to explain himself. Moggi insulted him and said “non ho voglia di parlarti” (I have no desire to speak with you) and hung up. I have the call and sent it to many.
By the way, Paparesta is an admitted Milanista.
The Paparesta deal is easy and stupid. Paparesta made terrible calls against Juventus in favour of Reggina (ignored penalty and two annulled goals). After the game Moggi went into the locker to room with Giraudo and yelled at Paparesta. It should be noted that according to league rules, directors are allowed to go into the referee locker room before and after a game but not during. In this case no harm done since it was after the game.
Moggi yelled at Paparesta and the linesmen (Coppelli who was found on the phone taking instructions from Milan's Meani on how to keep the flag down for Milan and up for others) and Di Mauro in an embarrassing fashion.
Moggi later made a crucial error. In a phone call afterwards he claimed that he locked the referees in the locker room, boarded a plane and left. Eye witness accounts including Paparesta's testimony to the court (which I have and can send to anyone interested) do not state that he or anyone else was ever trapped in a locker room. In addition, stadium surveillance recordings show Paparesta leaving at the normal hour.
Unfortunately Moggi’s attempt at sounding tougher than he was backfired as the Gazetta got the recording and publicized it. The declaration from Chief Investigator Borelli and testimony of Paparesta himself (I have both if anyone is interested) didn’t make the headlines. Moggi’s charges for “Unlawful Detainment” of Paparesta, Di Mauro, and Coppelli were all dropped. No one wrote about it though.
The day after the game Paparesta called Moggi to explain himself. Moggi insulted him and said “non ho voglia di parlarti” (I have no desire to speak with you) and hung up. I have the call and sent it to many.
By the way, Paparesta is an admitted Milanista.
To Denco
"Didn't the "great man" say that he had no choice but to do it to protect Juventus? That he was not the only 1 doing it but he came embroiled in it because we were up against mega powers?"
- he said he only ever defended Juve from her many enemies. He never said "I fixed matches". That was yet another line like many others that forced him to start a radio show to clear the air. Everytime he opened his mouth things were printed out of context. Why the hell would he admit it and then appeal it? Use some common sense.
"I have watched games over the years involving Juventus in serieA and Juve in Europe and sometimes I have physically cringed at the decisions we have been given in the past."
- that's not evidence. That's noting at all. I have seen countless decisions go against Juve and countless others favour rival clubs. If that is evidence then everyone from serie a should go to b and everyone from b should go to c. I'm not denying the countless errors that benefitted Juventus but you can't deny the countless errors that fucked them too. Juve left titles on the field after certain officiating blunders. The press just did'nt kill those situations the way that they did to teh Juve ones.
"You see if it comes out in the future that Manchester United , Barcelona, Real madrid and Milan have been favoured by the authorities because they have bribed or whatever, I will be shocked but I won't be surprised."
- Don't get mad but the fact that you included Milan in there tells me you haven't been paying attention.
"Some of the arguments here seem to be because we were not alone in benefiting from fraud, then we are not guilty."
- Not my argument. We weren't alone in benefitting from bad calls but that's not fraud. It's fraud when the bad calls are planned.
"Not guilty does not mean innocent"
- it means not convictable or at least it should. Imagine a world where accusations are enough to get you jailed.
"I don't need evidence or wiretaps to tell me that shit smells and I do not have to provide evidence that it does either."
I guess you're so smart you already know everything? Good thing others call me arrogant.
"noone but gsol and a few people to just take it on the chin."
Buddy learn italian ok...take that shit to an Italian forum where people are way more aware. It would shock to find out that the doubters are the minority now. Even non Juve fans I talk to in Italy know it was a setup. Only in the uninformed English forums do I encounter such resistance.
"You have to think about these things and I have said it before the deeper you dig, the less you are going to like what you find."
I dug. What I found made me sick. You didn't bother because "you don't need evidence"
By the way the fact that you are still in the dark about the Paparesta case is shocking. Now I see you go against my posts without even reading them. Well done.
"Didn't the "great man" say that he had no choice but to do it to protect Juventus? That he was not the only 1 doing it but he came embroiled in it because we were up against mega powers?"
- he said he only ever defended Juve from her many enemies. He never said "I fixed matches". That was yet another line like many others that forced him to start a radio show to clear the air. Everytime he opened his mouth things were printed out of context. Why the hell would he admit it and then appeal it? Use some common sense.
"I have watched games over the years involving Juventus in serieA and Juve in Europe and sometimes I have physically cringed at the decisions we have been given in the past."
- that's not evidence. That's noting at all. I have seen countless decisions go against Juve and countless others favour rival clubs. If that is evidence then everyone from serie a should go to b and everyone from b should go to c. I'm not denying the countless errors that benefitted Juventus but you can't deny the countless errors that fucked them too. Juve left titles on the field after certain officiating blunders. The press just did'nt kill those situations the way that they did to teh Juve ones.
"You see if it comes out in the future that Manchester United , Barcelona, Real madrid and Milan have been favoured by the authorities because they have bribed or whatever, I will be shocked but I won't be surprised."
- Don't get mad but the fact that you included Milan in there tells me you haven't been paying attention.
"Some of the arguments here seem to be because we were not alone in benefiting from fraud, then we are not guilty."
- Not my argument. We weren't alone in benefitting from bad calls but that's not fraud. It's fraud when the bad calls are planned.
"Not guilty does not mean innocent"
- it means not convictable or at least it should. Imagine a world where accusations are enough to get you jailed.
"I don't need evidence or wiretaps to tell me that shit smells and I do not have to provide evidence that it does either."
I guess you're so smart you already know everything? Good thing others call me arrogant.
"noone but gsol and a few people to just take it on the chin."
Buddy learn italian ok...take that shit to an Italian forum where people are way more aware. It would shock to find out that the doubters are the minority now. Even non Juve fans I talk to in Italy know it was a setup. Only in the uninformed English forums do I encounter such resistance.
"You have to think about these things and I have said it before the deeper you dig, the less you are going to like what you find."
I dug. What I found made me sick. You didn't bother because "you don't need evidence"
By the way the fact that you are still in the dark about the Paparesta case is shocking. Now I see you go against my posts without even reading them. Well done.
Just for the record...I don't get irritated when people are uneducated. I understand why people are uneducated. it's not easy finding evidence when it is all in Italian and people don't speak the language. I get irritated when uneducated people talk down to me. They don't read my posts or bother to go throught the documents and wiretaps etc that I provide and then come back calling me crazy or stupid. They are in no position to do that.
I have few posts here because I just showed up after being asked to by others (from other) who thought that the peopl e here would be interested in the facts. I'm new to Juventuz but only I know how many forums (italian mainly) I've posted on. Only I know how many of my articles have been published on other web pages like Goal and Ju29ro. Only I know how many of those have been translated into everything from Italian to Swedish, Korean, French, Chinese, Arabic, etc. etc.
I've been doing this for longer than you think.
What I say isn't meant to be argued. It's meant to be accepted. the reason for that is that I am not posting opinions but facts. "Not Guilty" isn't something I think...it's something the judges declared. Many just weren't aware of it.
I have few posts here because I just showed up after being asked to by others (from other) who thought that the peopl e here would be interested in the facts. I'm new to Juventuz but only I know how many forums (italian mainly) I've posted on. Only I know how many of my articles have been published on other web pages like Goal and Ju29ro. Only I know how many of those have been translated into everything from Italian to Swedish, Korean, French, Chinese, Arabic, etc. etc.
I've been doing this for longer than you think.
What I say isn't meant to be argued. It's meant to be accepted. the reason for that is that I am not posting opinions but facts. "Not Guilty" isn't something I think...it's something the judges declared. Many just weren't aware of it.