actually j.zanetti were owned in this thread. oh, poor interista, hard life.
turk should kill them all, totally agree.
turk should kill them all, totally agree.
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Calciopoli or Morattopoli.. inter fake orgasm (42 Viewers)
- Thread starter gsol
- Start date
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Some still question where authority lies in Italy. Juventus were investigated for years for drugs, and illegal financing, they were found not guilty of both and then Calciopoli happened and they went to Serie B with no proof of match fixing or match influencing while:
- Roma confessed to lavish gift giving to refs
- Inter were found guilty of providing Recoba fake papers (should have gone to Serie B but instead were only fined)
- Mazzola ratted out all his Inter teammates regarding drug use
- Georgatos did the same (still Inter)
- Kallon (still Inter) tests positive for steroid use and suspended but no team investigation occurs
- Gattuso, Seedorf, and Pancaro of Milan refuse drug testing, weeks later Borriello tests positive for steroids, not investigation follows
- Milan and Collina simultaneously sponsored by OPEL
- Roma, Lazio, Inter, Milan (and others) show fraudulent accounting records according to Deloitte & Touche (accounting firm) yet register for Serie A showing 80 to 180 million euros of debt each
- Dida papers proved fraudulent, Galliani turns them in himself (no punishment)
- Inter simultaneously owned Spezia (illegal to own two teams in one season)
- Miln owned Torino for a year as well
- Fachetti found calling referee designers, De Santis and other refs admits to being contacted by Inter...nothing happens
- Inter admit to spying on other teams and officials
- Milan secret meetings with referees
-etc etc etc
- Roma confessed to lavish gift giving to refs
- Inter were found guilty of providing Recoba fake papers (should have gone to Serie B but instead were only fined)
- Mazzola ratted out all his Inter teammates regarding drug use
- Georgatos did the same (still Inter)
- Kallon (still Inter) tests positive for steroid use and suspended but no team investigation occurs
- Gattuso, Seedorf, and Pancaro of Milan refuse drug testing, weeks later Borriello tests positive for steroids, not investigation follows
- Milan and Collina simultaneously sponsored by OPEL
- Roma, Lazio, Inter, Milan (and others) show fraudulent accounting records according to Deloitte & Touche (accounting firm) yet register for Serie A showing 80 to 180 million euros of debt each
- Dida papers proved fraudulent, Galliani turns them in himself (no punishment)
- Inter simultaneously owned Spezia (illegal to own two teams in one season)
- Miln owned Torino for a year as well
- Fachetti found calling referee designers, De Santis and other refs admits to being contacted by Inter...nothing happens
- Inter admit to spying on other teams and officials
- Milan secret meetings with referees
-etc etc etc
(Denco i appreciate your opinion and i respect your judgement in most of the matters, actually most of the times i agree with you and i rarely have the chance to debate you for smth
BUT this time, i think you need to change your approach here.
I know you are very very very objective and you prefer to sacrifice your own interests for the objectiveness, this forum, in general seriously lacks posters like your self and your agressiveness towards biased opinions is fully justified most of the times, even when Juventus interests are in line
BUT this time you are wrong, not only as a Juve fan, but also as a football fan.
We are not judges or lawmakers here, neither God.
We are just humans and humans are always biased and are rarely neutral,
we do not discuss this matter as an academic, moral debate. We are discussing this matter out of football fans view.
I always believed that Juventus IS guilty for many things, we ARE using illegal substances to enhance our players performance, we are using are political influence to determine a result that would favor our team,
if God himself was passing judgment then indeed, we had to paid the consequenses, but there is no man who can pass judgement in real life.
Our trial was ubber hypocrisy, how can you ignore that???
The facts presented, are not sufficient to determine our degree of guilt,
how can you be pleased about the final verdict?
How can you blindfully trust a corrupted justice system???
How can you totally ignore the circumstances of our crimes??
If you seek truth and fairness, you should seek the purge of ALL guilty parties.
Its like sending a soldier in jail because he killed someone during war,
punish him for everything, claim that he should stop the war by himself and he ought to try alone and change that, while ignoring the circumstances and the real masterminds of the ones that started the war and have the powers to stop it!
Juventus IS a WEAK club politically, we ARE helpless (after Agnelli's death, EPO trials and silenzio stampa proved that long before calciopoli), our number of fans cant do nothing, justice cant do nothing to help us against the ppl who control everything!!
I m really sorry you cant realise that, i was certain you could do better than that. Calciopoli wasnt poetical juctice, even if you wish that, you have to open your eyes and see what happened, the accusations and verdicts were delivered by Gazzetta, the rest were mere puppets/pawns.
And the WORST thing is, it isnt over, NOTHING hasnt changed!!
Our enemies, united, just delivered a decisive strike, the war is still on and it will like that FOREVER, noone can change that, you can only ignore the truth and pretend this is not happening. The only thing that has really changed is the equation of balances, THATS IT!!
That was the only reason that everything happened...
And i m 1000% certain that history will prove that, there is reason to attack gsol or anyone else who want to help for this process, facts speak for themselves.
The facts presented for the trial were false and meant to corrupt the truth and help to deliver the predetermined verdict.
I m not saying that the real facts would prove us innocent, we are not innocent,
but our degree of guilt is much more different than that and this is what we are talking about here...It is important, justice did not prevailed here, by any means! )
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your words but this is the last time I am going to comment on this matter and I will finish with this
Alessandro Del Piero, Fabio Capello, FabioCannavaro, Patrick Vieira, Zlatan, Ibrahimovic, Pavel nedved, Gianluigi Buffon, Ginaluca Zambrotta, David Trezeguet, Emerson, Lilian Thuram, Mauro camoranesi
Check out this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Juventus_F.C._players
What do all these players have in common? They are all great players but more important they are very principled people, well most of them.
Now you want to convince me that all these great players and popular fans we have would have idly stood by and accepted that Juventus were innocent?
You are invariably saying that these guys are cheats and for some reason they all accepted it?
How can Moratti by himself bring down an empire without evidence?
Let me tell you something that I find even more bothersome
If we have accepted our faith and were in fact not guilty of the charges brought against us, then it means that we are hiding something even more sinister and have plea bargained for it not to come out
It seems to me that we agreed to be relegated to serieB to hide something that might have been more damaging to the name of Italian football in particular and football in general.
You know how the powers that be try to protect the public from not letting us get the ful;l picture as sometimes the truth is not something that is good for everybody to know.
Unless of course we were guilty of what we were charged with
As for not having a patron and that is why we got relegated, I am pretty sure by the time we went to trial for drugs, we didnt have 1 either so thats not a good excuse
Anyways I am leaving this matter to those that it bothers because I don't much care for it at all
BUT this time, i think you need to change your approach here.
I know you are very very very objective and you prefer to sacrifice your own interests for the objectiveness, this forum, in general seriously lacks posters like your self and your agressiveness towards biased opinions is fully justified most of the times, even when Juventus interests are in line
BUT this time you are wrong, not only as a Juve fan, but also as a football fan.
We are not judges or lawmakers here, neither God.
We are just humans and humans are always biased and are rarely neutral,
we do not discuss this matter as an academic, moral debate. We are discussing this matter out of football fans view.
I always believed that Juventus IS guilty for many things, we ARE using illegal substances to enhance our players performance, we are using are political influence to determine a result that would favor our team,
if God himself was passing judgment then indeed, we had to paid the consequenses, but there is no man who can pass judgement in real life.
Our trial was ubber hypocrisy, how can you ignore that???
The facts presented, are not sufficient to determine our degree of guilt,
how can you be pleased about the final verdict?
How can you blindfully trust a corrupted justice system???
How can you totally ignore the circumstances of our crimes??
If you seek truth and fairness, you should seek the purge of ALL guilty parties.
Its like sending a soldier in jail because he killed someone during war,
punish him for everything, claim that he should stop the war by himself and he ought to try alone and change that, while ignoring the circumstances and the real masterminds of the ones that started the war and have the powers to stop it!
Juventus IS a WEAK club politically, we ARE helpless (after Agnelli's death, EPO trials and silenzio stampa proved that long before calciopoli), our number of fans cant do nothing, justice cant do nothing to help us against the ppl who control everything!!
I m really sorry you cant realise that, i was certain you could do better than that. Calciopoli wasnt poetical juctice, even if you wish that, you have to open your eyes and see what happened, the accusations and verdicts were delivered by Gazzetta, the rest were mere puppets/pawns.
And the WORST thing is, it isnt over, NOTHING hasnt changed!!
Our enemies, united, just delivered a decisive strike, the war is still on and it will like that FOREVER, noone can change that, you can only ignore the truth and pretend this is not happening. The only thing that has really changed is the equation of balances, THATS IT!!
That was the only reason that everything happened...
And i m 1000% certain that history will prove that, there is reason to attack gsol or anyone else who want to help for this process, facts speak for themselves.
The facts presented for the trial were false and meant to corrupt the truth and help to deliver the predetermined verdict.
I m not saying that the real facts would prove us innocent, we are not innocent,
but our degree of guilt is much more different than that and this is what we are talking about here...It is important, justice did not prevailed here, by any means! )
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your words but this is the last time I am going to comment on this matter and I will finish with this
Alessandro Del Piero, Fabio Capello, FabioCannavaro, Patrick Vieira, Zlatan, Ibrahimovic, Pavel nedved, Gianluigi Buffon, Ginaluca Zambrotta, David Trezeguet, Emerson, Lilian Thuram, Mauro camoranesi
Check out this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Juventus_F.C._players
What do all these players have in common? They are all great players but more important they are very principled people, well most of them.
Now you want to convince me that all these great players and popular fans we have would have idly stood by and accepted that Juventus were innocent?
You are invariably saying that these guys are cheats and for some reason they all accepted it?
How can Moratti by himself bring down an empire without evidence?
Let me tell you something that I find even more bothersome
If we have accepted our faith and were in fact not guilty of the charges brought against us, then it means that we are hiding something even more sinister and have plea bargained for it not to come out
It seems to me that we agreed to be relegated to serieB to hide something that might have been more damaging to the name of Italian football in particular and football in general.
You know how the powers that be try to protect the public from not letting us get the ful;l picture as sometimes the truth is not something that is good for everybody to know.
Unless of course we were guilty of what we were charged with
As for not having a patron and that is why we got relegated, I am pretty sure by the time we went to trial for drugs, we didnt have 1 either so thats not a good excuse
Anyways I am leaving this matter to those that it bothers because I don't much care for it at all
Denco, the difference is the drug charges were tried by DIGOS (actual court) and the finance charges were tried by La Guardia della Finanza (actual court). Calciopoli was run by Guido Rossi.
You are right though. There was something more sinister that Juve wanted to hide. The hostile takeover of the club, the payoff of sacrificing Juventus for Ferrari, and the connection between men like Montezemolo and Inter Investors.
You are wrong to think Moratti did it by himslef though.
The real Cupola was Moratti, Tronchetti, G. Rossi, Borelli, Montezemolo.
You are right though. There was something more sinister that Juve wanted to hide. The hostile takeover of the club, the payoff of sacrificing Juventus for Ferrari, and the connection between men like Montezemolo and Inter Investors.
You are wrong to think Moratti did it by himslef though.
The real Cupola was Moratti, Tronchetti, G. Rossi, Borelli, Montezemolo.
Something's wrong with the first sentence. Pancaro left Milan a long time ago and he couldn't have refused drug testing, while playing for Milan, only weeks before Borriello tested positive.
You mean Favalli ?
As for the rest, it's disguisting how Milan survived Calciopoli and were even let to play in cl.
Juve or Inter weren't the cancer of Italian football. It was always Berlusconi and Milan who were involved in every single scandal in Calcio and yet they somehow survived while Fiorentina, Juve and the others suffered.
You mean Favalli ?
As for the rest, it's disguisting how Milan survived Calciopoli and were even let to play in cl.
Juve or Inter weren't the cancer of Italian football. It was always Berlusconi and Milan who were involved in every single scandal in Calcio and yet they somehow survived while Fiorentina, Juve and the others suffered.
Sorry those were all seperate cases. Borriello tested psitive about a month after Seedorf had refused. I wasn't really paying attention to the order.
That's not really the point though.
The best part of the Borriello incident was his justification for the positive test. He claimed that his girlfriend was using a vaginal cream (that contained steroids?) and that his manhood absorbed it after love making...that was his excuse and the excuse was approved by Milan's medical staff. The league doctors discreditted the posibility given the obsene level of steroids found in his blood and had him suspended.
That's not really the point though.
The best part of the Borriello incident was his justification for the positive test. He claimed that his girlfriend was using a vaginal cream (that contained steroids?) and that his manhood absorbed it after love making...that was his excuse and the excuse was approved by Milan's medical staff. The league doctors discreditted the posibility given the obsene level of steroids found in his blood and had him suspended.
What I find incredible after reading comments from Zanetti and others is the magnitude of the media. When I read "your lawyer said you deserved Serie C" I realize that no matter what Juve will always be prtrayed as a favour receiver.
Zaccone's comment was taken out of context first of all. He said "we could have been sent to Serie C" which was true because that was what the prosecution was demanding at the time but by printing it the way the papers did it appears like the courts were favouring Juve while the were relegating them for charges that there was no proof for. They convinced the public that Juve were "cheating" while being unjustly punished.
To accuse Juve of "cheating" when they win is by now the standard operating procedure but to convince the public that Juve were being done a "favour" while being demoted is nothing short of a work of art.
The media played the public like a fiddle
Zaccone's comment was taken out of context first of all. He said "we could have been sent to Serie C" which was true because that was what the prosecution was demanding at the time but by printing it the way the papers did it appears like the courts were favouring Juve while the were relegating them for charges that there was no proof for. They convinced the public that Juve were "cheating" while being unjustly punished.
To accuse Juve of "cheating" when they win is by now the standard operating procedure but to convince the public that Juve were being done a "favour" while being demoted is nothing short of a work of art.
The media played the public like a fiddle
Tell me then gsol, what did Juventus do to clear its supposedly good name? Why, after the initial verdict of a points deduction cum demotion to Serie B, did the Juve lawyers plead for a reduced sentence, stating that relegation alone would be punishment enough for the "crime"? That is as good as a confession to the charges, and the club itself has never (as far as I know of) claimed innocence in the matter. Surely if (as you say) we are clean then why the self admission of guilt?
You have stated all the things of which we have been deemed not guilty of, tell me then how in a court of law can punishment be given without the crime? You have told us what many have not known, yet I suspect there is most likely far more that even you are in the dark about. There is absolutely no doubt that we have been convicted and found guilty of something, otherwise there would be no punishment, I believe that is a simple principle you'd understand.
You have stated all the things of which we have been deemed not guilty of, tell me then how in a court of law can punishment be given without the crime? You have told us what many have not known, yet I suspect there is most likely far more that even you are in the dark about. There is absolutely no doubt that we have been convicted and found guilty of something, otherwise there would be no punishment, I believe that is a simple principle you'd understand.
"You have stated all the things of which we have been deemed not guilty of, tell me then how in a court of law can punishment be given without the crime? "
Welcome to Italy...that's the principle you haven't understood. You asked good but typical questions. They have already been answered on this thread. Go back and find "the inside job" post. I don't want to post it again here.
Just for the record it wasn't a court of law. If it was Juventus would have never been punished. You'll see what happened when Juventus attempted to appeal in an actual court of law in the Inside Job.
It was a sports tribunal hand picked by Guido Rossi that convicted Juve.
Simply put, if Juve did something wrong why won't the verdicts say what it is? They were convicted anyway...why hide the reason? Unless there was nothing to hide at all.
Everybody has the same 3 misconceptions:
a) they were punished therefore they were found guilty...not true the sentence says so
b) FIAT managers were thinking of Juventus' best interest...not true, they were thinking of FIAT's best interest (more specifically Ferrari)
c) Juventus requested Serie B...not true according to all the trial documents
Welcome to Italy...that's the principle you haven't understood. You asked good but typical questions. They have already been answered on this thread. Go back and find "the inside job" post. I don't want to post it again here.
Just for the record it wasn't a court of law. If it was Juventus would have never been punished. You'll see what happened when Juventus attempted to appeal in an actual court of law in the Inside Job.
It was a sports tribunal hand picked by Guido Rossi that convicted Juve.
Simply put, if Juve did something wrong why won't the verdicts say what it is? They were convicted anyway...why hide the reason? Unless there was nothing to hide at all.
Everybody has the same 3 misconceptions:
a) they were punished therefore they were found guilty...not true the sentence says so
b) FIAT managers were thinking of Juventus' best interest...not true, they were thinking of FIAT's best interest (more specifically Ferrari)
c) Juventus requested Serie B...not true according to all the trial documents
It's now more evident than ever. Juventus just signed a contract with "La Gazzetta Dello Sport". The same trash rag that has been smearing Juventus' name for over a decade. The same trash rag that Moggi and Giraudo opposed for years. Now they are Juventus' sponsors. As is Telecom a sponsor of Ferrari and on my issue of Hurra Juventus I noted ads from TIM...the same telephone company owned by Inter's biggest sponsor (Tronchetti) that provided and sold (to the Gazzetta) all the wire taps for the scandal are now Juve's partners.
How much more evidence do we need? The old Juve regime was resistant to the powers that be between Juve and the company's in the Italian soccer world. Now Moggi and Giraudo are gone and those companies are all in bed with Juventus' new (FIAT) managers.
Anyone that still thinks Calciopoli wasn't about multi-million euro contracts can't see past their nose.
How much more evidence do we need? The old Juve regime was resistant to the powers that be between Juve and the company's in the Italian soccer world. Now Moggi and Giraudo are gone and those companies are all in bed with Juventus' new (FIAT) managers.
Anyone that still thinks Calciopoli wasn't about multi-million euro contracts can't see past their nose.
