Burqa (2 Viewers)

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GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
69,221
Any idea of another way to help those who are forced to wear it?
in a country like france? well it is technically a form of conjugal abuse, if it's a wife, if on the other hand it's someone's daughter it falls under child services jurisdiction; and trust me both deal with much worse so i am sure they have ways of dealing with it, I honestly dont know personally anyone who wears burqa and have yet to come across an incident of the woman being forced to wear burqa or hijab. But you know the measure passed in france wasnt because of those concerns neither officially nor agenda-wise. The best way to deal with it in my opinion is give as much freedom for people to express themselves in what they find comfort in, which will never happen in a country like france.
 

JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
72,082
Do you know that this law indeed exists in Islam (atleast in our Sunni teachings,i don't know about shia)?

I don't know if u're talking about Islamic law or Iranian government,but i'm just telling you to know.

Women are not considered as men's belongings in Quran.Please mention the verses,I know the entire Quran by heart,and i don't know what verses you are talking about? maybe your Imams tell that but Quran no way.

Women not voting is completely sick,and everybody here agrees .Yes that exists in Mideast but that has nothing to do with Islam.
The open-endedness of religion and it's holy books mean it is open to interpretation and abuse. Besides, as Deneb said, it's not really a religious matter.

Women fighting for their rights are everywhere.Even in Europe which is the most liberal place there are feminists fighting against the heavy prostitution and pornography in Europe.
I don't see how western neo-feminism relates to female rights in the arab world. Some of those women in the west are bordering on radicalists in what they push for. Not being allowed to call a woman 'love' or 'dear'. In the arab world they are looking for everyday equality. The west is obsessed with political correctness. Pornography is not a criminal act and actresses are not forced into it against their will. Prostitution goes beyond female rights, it's a criminal offense in most countries.

As for you not agreeing with Islam allowing men to merry 4 wives,i can tell you that,in Europe men are allowed to have affairs with many women at the same time,now will you please criticize Europeans for allowing men to do that?
Nonsense. It's called adultery, and although it has been decriminalized in most European countries it is not accepted, and is still a criminal act in some. Believe me, you are in serious trouble in some cases, with the law and society. You are not 'allowed' to have affairs, and it will most likely bring the end of your marriage. That is a direct contrast to Islam.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
No. I direct them to the right way. I know women who are approved of their men marrying as many women as they want. They think this is a right given to men by Islam so they have to obey. And I'm all for a law which forbids this even if those women, who are supposedly the victims of this stupid law, are approved of it. You must stop wrong things to happen and Burqa is wrong Fred.

Secondly, for those women who are forced to wear Burqa, NOTHING but a law preventing women from wearing it would help. Do you know what I mean? This time lets see this as a humane issue. Those women who are willingly wearing Burqa will lose nothing by not wearing it (not to mention that the whole concept behind this hijab is way too sexist). I'd much rather a case when 1000 women are forced to not wear Burqa while 10 other are now not forced to wear it against their will to the situation when 1000 women are wearing Burqa willingly and 10 other are forced to wear it.
Thats not for you to decide. Some women believe its right, and thats why they choose to wear it.
 

Gamaro

The Arabian Knight
Aug 6, 2007
1,289
The open-endedness of religion and it's holy books mean it is open to interpretation and abuse. Besides, as Deneb said, it's not really a religious matter.
She said "It's fact".

That means,it has nothing to do with interpretations.


I don't see how western neo-feminism relates to female rights in the arab world. Some of those women in the west are bordering on radicalists in what they push for. Not being allowed to call a woman 'love' or 'dear'. In the arab world they are looking for everyday equality. The west is obsessed with political correctness. Pornography is not a criminal act and actresses are not forced into it against their will. Prostitution goes beyond female rights, it's a criminal offense in most countries.
First of all,do u consider pornstars actresses? pornography has nothing to do with Art.Yes JJ,there are feminists in Europe attacking pornography, i don't remember the name but i can check if you want.

The other thing you are saying that actresses are not forced into it so there is no problem.Now let me tell you, aren't women rights organization are criticizing Muslim men for having 4 wives even though the women themselves accept that?

If someone is convinced with something wrong shouldn't i tell him that he is wrong? or you think i should not advise him just because he is satsfied with that?


Nonsense. It's called adultery, and although it has been decriminalized in most European countries it is not accepted, and is still a criminal act in some. Believe me, you are in serious trouble in some cases, with the law and society. You are not 'allowed' to have affairs, and it will most likely bring the end of your marriage. That is a direct contrast to Islam.
I don't know if you are talking about UK or Europe genrally or most European countries.Because you know laws are different from a country to another.I was not talking about all European states BTW.And if adultery is not a crime in some of the "1st world european countries" then my point is still valid.

Anyway,let me change the word.

Is it disallowed to have more than 1 girlfriend (not married) or not?
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,372
I've never expected this statment to come out from the person who i consider the most mature and the wisest member in Juventuz.

Greg,don't women and even men in every society in the globe have choices made for them what to wear and what not to?!!!! Isn't exposing nipples in most places in US considerd illegal? so don't the american nudists have undesired choices made for them?
Well, yes. There are limits. But the point is: is it more empowering for women to have more freedoms to choose from, or fewer? We're not talking about women parading naked in the streets. We're talking about a woman who has the liberated choice of whether to wear a burqa or not if she wants. Even both in the same week if she cares. The other two options are more oppressive:

1. Our society says you must wear a burqa to defer respect to both God and all men because you are subservient to men

2. Our society says you must not wear a burqa -- because we the government are protecting you from family members and people in your social circle who still believe we're all living in Afghanistan even when we're in France. We, in effect, are saving you from yourself -- even if what we're doing is really more symbolic for something that doesn't even exist here in this country.

One may have more "noble" intentions than the other. But either case is one of an outside force telling women what they can or cannot wear. And wearing burqa or not is not even the same thing as the choice of going nude or not.
 

Gamaro

The Arabian Knight
Aug 6, 2007
1,289
Well, yes. There are limits. But the point is: is it more empowering for women to have more freedoms to choose from, or fewer? We're not talking about women parading naked in the streets. We're talking about a woman who has the liberated choice of whether to wear a burqa or not if she wants. Even both in the same week if she cares. The other two options are more oppressive:

1. Our society says you must wear a burqa to defer respect to both God and all men because you are subservient to men

2. Our society says you must not wear a burqa -- because we the government are protecting you from family members and people in your social circle who still believe we're all living in Afghanistan even when we're in France. We, in effect, are saving you from yourself -- even if what we're doing is really more symbolic for something that doesn't even exist here in this country.

One may have more "noble" intentions than the other. But either case is one of an outside force telling women what they can or cannot wear. And wearing burqa or not is not even the same thing as the choice of going nude or not.
Women have more options to choose from are not necessarily better than Women who have lesser options.Maybe there are only few good options,and thus those who have lesser have only the good so they will only choose a good thing,and those who have more have good and bad options so there is a possibilty to see the bad opted.

Del Neri has a bigger squad to choose from than what Guardiola has but that does't make him in a better position.There is a possibility to see a player like Grygera in Juve but in Barce there is no fullback as bad as Grygera.

Regarding Burqa,you said it the best.There is nothing in our laws says that women who aren't convinced with it must wear.
 
Apr 12, 2004
77,165
Women have more options to choose from are not necessarily better than Women who have lesser options.Maybe there are only few good options,and thus those who have lesser have only the good so they will only choose a good thing,and those who have more have good and bad options so there is a possibilty to see the bad opted.

Del Neri has a bigger squad to choose from than what Guardiola has but that does't make him in a better position.There is a possibility to see a player like Grygera in Juve but in Barce there is no fullback as bad as Grygera.

Regarding Burqa,you said it the best.There is nothing in our laws says that women who aren't convinced with it must wear.
I'm of the opinion, sex (male or female) aside, that having more choices/options is always a good thing.
 

JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
72,082
First of all,do u consider pornstars actresses? pornography has nothing to do with Art.Yes JJ,there are feminists in Europe attacking pornography, i don't remember the name but i can check if you want.
Yes, that's their job description, they have sex as an act to please others, not because they want to. And they get paid very well for it. I won't argue the classification of art, I studied art for some time and it is a mad world :D

The other thing you are saying that actresses are not forced into it so there is no problem.Now let me tell you, aren't women rights organization are criticizing Muslim men for having 4 wives even though the women themselves accept that?
I don't know, but it wasn't the point I was arguing. I was replying to you suggesting pornography was oppressive to women and they were not free to choose what they do to make a living. If Islamic women don't mind being one of several wives then I don't see the problem.

I don't know if you are talking about UK or Europe genrally or most European countries.Because you know laws are different from a country to another.I was not talking about all European states BTW.And if adultery is not a crime in some of the "1st world european countries" then my point is still valid.
Multiple wives in Islam - permitted
Extramarital affairs in the West - not permitted, but also not a criminal offence in most countries.

That's pretty much as simple as it gets. You can have more than one girlfriend by law, but most women would not agree to that. By law you can't be married to more than one person, it's a clear difference to Islam. I don't it's right that you suggest adultery is generally accepted. It is not uncommon, but certainly in the society I live in it ranges from a forgiving partner to attempted murder or death in revenge. In Italy I've known of people killed because of it.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,372
Women have more options to choose from are not necessarily better than Women who have lesser options.Maybe there are only few good options,and thus those who have lesser have only the good so they will only choose a good thing,and those who have more have good and bad options so there is a possibilty to see the bad opted.

Del Neri has a bigger squad to choose from than what Guardiola has but that does't make him in a better position.There is a possibility to see a player like Grygera in Juve but in Barce there is no fullback as bad as Grygera.

Regarding Burqa,you said it the best.There is nothing in our laws says that women who aren't convinced with it must wear.
I think there's the impression that having more options is better. The reality often falls short, but that has less to do with actual freedoms and more to do with the limits of human psychology. (More choices often raises anxiety, the worry of making the wrong choice, etc.)

The Del Neri vs Guardiola comparison doesn't fit, however, because this isn't a parallel to this situation. The Del Neri vs. Guadiola equivalent would be a woman who has the choices between a burqa, a loincloth, a gas rag, a clown suit, and sweatpants versus a woman who only has the choices of a Chanel evening gown and a fur coat.
 

Gamaro

The Arabian Knight
Aug 6, 2007
1,289
Multiple wives in Islam - permitted
Extramarital affairs in the West - not permitted, but also not a criminal offence in most countries.

That's pretty much as simple as it gets. You can have more than one girlfriend by law, but most women would not agree to that. By law you can't be married to more than one person, it's a clear difference to Islam. I don't it's right that you suggest adultery is generally accepted. It is not uncommon, but certainly in the society I live in it ranges from a forgiving partner to attempted murder or death in revenge. In Italy I've known of people killed because of it.
This what i meant JJ,a man in KSA having 4 wives = a single man in Europe having 4 single GF's.

I know there is a difference regarding officiality and some other things, but the critics of Islam always criticize Islam from the sexual relation point,what they say is Islam is immoral because it allows men to have sex with multiple women.But in practice the same goes for the European laws,as it doesn't disallow people to have sexual relationship with more than one person.

And if we talk interms of Morality,then having more than one GF is surely worse than having more than one wife,because most of the time if not all the times you will find the man who has 2 GF's for example is hiding the truth from both the girls,that means he is cheating both.But if I'm married to a woman and want to propose another one i have to tell her that i'm aleardy married,I musn't lie,even the the first one must be informed.

I know that not all the Europeans have multiple GFs or prefer to do that but i'm talking about the law,it doesn't prohibit being involved in more than one sexual relationship.So why our Islamic law is always criticized but not the European's?

The way Hoori was speaking about the allowance of 4 wives in Islam seems to me that she is contempting Islam for allowing a man to have multiple sexual relations,then why doesn't she contempt European laws for also allowing the same thing?
 
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