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[xziz]

++ [ originally posted by Stuart ] ++
I can't say anything about Zeman's past with Foggia because I knew not of it until reading Libero's post, but I will admit that I like what he's doing with Lecce. Quite contrary to most Italian teams, Zeman's Lecce isn't afraid to concede goals and I love the "I'd rather lose 4-3 than draw 0-0" concept (this is coming from a neutral perspective of course). I'm going to just this once forget about Zeman and his relationship with Juventus and say hats off to an adventurous Czech.

Zdenek Zeman is overrrated. He is overrated especially by that part of the Italian press who is sworn enemy of Juventus. I repeat: he is a nobody who made his name by attacking Juventus thus being compensated with media coverage by Juventus enemies.

In serie A there is plenty of trainers who have made wonders with young players and low budget teams, I mean people such as Prandelli (with Parma) or Del Neri (with Chievo) and are recognized and appreciated because of their abilities and achievements and not just because they spoke against Juventus. Or there are other teams who have even less expensive budgets and have the same points as Lecce, e.g. Messina trained by Mutti.

xziz :fero:

 

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[xziz]

Well done Zdenek and supporters, keep up the good work. I wish you can always achieve a 0 - 4 loss in each of your games.

And thanks for the show. Without your lousy defense and mindless handling of tactics we could not have enjoyed the show.

xziz :fero:

 

[xziz]

when Zdenek Zeman speaks, in fact is the romanist in him that speaks. The guy dies to be back in Roma jersey.

xziz :groan:

 

[Kaiser Franco]

xziz,

The complex of persecution by which you seem affected reminds me a lot of that my team's President laments for in his political career. The anti-Juve press? Surely you can't be referring to Italy's 3 biggest-selling sports papers (Gazzetta, Corriere dello Sport and Tuttosport), all of which are rather pro-Juve (perhaps because they are actually OWNED by FIAT?). Zeman didn't become famous after his allegations against Juve : he was already acknowledged as a prominent football character by then. And far from benefiting him, those events nearly ended his career, as eventually even Sensi abandoned him by terminating his contract with Roma (more so because of the embarrassing situation he was confronted with and the pression he was under from all sides than for his record).

The heart of Europe designates my current city of residence, i.e. Brussels, home of the European Union and NATO headquarters and located in a very central position geographically speaking. I am however a pure product of Italy's North (mother being Turinese and dad being Lombard), so you can't suspect me of "Romaphilia" nor "Czechophilia" (though I'd recommend a visit to the Chick Rep...I mean, CZECH Republic to anyone willing to have a good time). Speaking of kinship, you do know that Zeman is the nephew of a certain Cestmir Vycpalek, i.e. Juventus' coach in the 70's, right?

Am I overrating Zeman? I don't think so. My aim here is simply to show that he is the most offensive coach the serie A has produced in a long time, NOT that he is a winning coach, which he obviously isn't. A winning coach would never tell his players to keep attacking flat out even after the opponent keeps putting three men in front of your goalkeeper without facing any resistance, as happened yesterday against Fiorentina. As I said earlier, suicide is all part of the equation in Zemanlandia. Zemanlandia is a place where beauty and fantasy are more important concepts than reason and pragmatism. Where time and matter are interpreted differently than in the scientific world of serie A. Watching Lecce play (and Foggia before them) is like watching a cartoon in fast motion : you can almost spot the trails of dust left behind by the players' runnings. It's like a short evasion from the exacerbated reality of Italian football, and that's what I like about it.

Prandelli did a good job with Parma, but with the likes of Ferrari, Frey, Bonera or Gilardino, you can hardly say that his was a diminished team. Note that after his first stupendous serie A season at Foggia, Zeman sold virtually all his top players (Signori, Baiano, Shalimov, Rambaudi and I think Petrescu), replaced them with semi-unknown serie B and C players and repeated the miracle, i.e. avoid relegation while playing great football. I don't subscribe to the idea that Del Neri is an offensive or revolutionary coach. His 4-4-2 formation is quite conservative, and let's face it : the only season when Chievo did play good attacking football was the first one. After that they became a rather concrete and cynical team, which is of the essence if you want to succeed in Italy. Mutti's Messina is another story. I say we give them some more time : maybe it could turn out to be the new Zemanlandia...

Anyway, Zeman's vision of football means there is little chance that he will ever achieve something with a serie A giant, because no Galliani, Moggi or Moratti is willing to sacrifice results over spectacle (imagine their face when he puts in a fifth striker in a game he is winning 4-3), but as long as he keeps creating little miracles like Foggia and Lecce I will be happy and the serie A as a whole will benefit from it.

 

[xziz]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
xziz,

The complex of persecution by which you seem affected reminds me a lot of that my team's President laments for in his political career. The anti-Juve press? Surely you can't be referring to Italy's 3 biggest-selling sports papers (Gazzetta, Corriere dello Sport and Tuttosport), all of which are rather pro-Juve (perhaps because they are actually OWNED by FIAT?). Zeman didn't become famous after his allegations against Juve : he was already acknowledged as a prominent football character by then. And far from benefiting him, those events nearly ended his career, as eventually even Sensi abandoned him by terminating his contract with Roma (more so because of the embarrassing situation he was confronted with and the pression he was under from all sides than for his record).

Kaiser Franco,

for a moment I had thought the Kaiser Franco referred to Sensiless F***ing Fat Face Franco. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Please do not be ashamed to say the name of your president: B E R L U S C O N I. Do not feel shy to add that he owns and controls Italian media. I spoke about press but let us speak about media, as you know a TV is worth 10.000 newspapers (OK the original proverb was a picture is worth 10.000 words, I just brought the concept up to date.)

from the international federations of journalists: http://www.ifj.org/pdfs/europeownershipupdate2003.PDF

"The narrowness of control of the Italian media is striking.Silvio Berlusconi (Sua Emittenza - ‘Mr Broadcasting’ - andthe richest man in Italy) used the total absence of regulationof the mass media in the 1980s to add to his channel,Canale 5, two other commercial channels between1982 and 1984, Italia 1 and Rete 4. He purchased oneof Italy’s leading football clubs, AC Milan, in 1986 andestablished a ‘pioneering fusion between Italy’s two leadingentertainment services, football and television’."

"Newspaper readership figures in Italy are relatively low,and this adds to the importance of television. 82% ofItalians depend only on television for news, the highestpercentage in the EU. It is in this context that the overlappingof media and political power highlights vital issuesfor Italian democratic processes. Berlusconi’s powerfulcommercial and media empire was developed throughdubious clientelistic relationships with politicians andother agencies. Proceedings for tax fraud, accountingpeculiarities and bribery of police and judges were startedagainst Berlusconi, and in April 2001 The Economistalleged that he had paid 23 billion lire into Craxi’s offshorebank accounts.In 1984 prime minister Craxi’s ‘Berlusconi Decree’ overturneda court order banning Berlusconi from broadcasting,and the1990 Legge Mammi formalised theBerlusconi/RAI duopoly."

So, In Italy the media soccer affiliations is a follows:TV Networks in order of importance for soccer coverage and rating:

RAI DUE Strongly pro Roma and Anti-Juve, sympathetic with Inter not with Milan or Lazio
- 90o Minuto (goals and interviews)
- Domenica Sportiva (goals, interviews, and long, opinionatd, partisan commentaries)

ITALIA 1 OWNED BY BERLUSCONI strongly pro-Milan
- controcampo (goals, interviews, and long, opinionated, partisan commentaries)

RAI UNO not aligned
- Stadio Sprint (goals and interviews)

CANALE 5 OWNED BY BERLUSCONI strongly pro-Milan

RETE 4 OWNED BY BERLUSCONI strongly pro-Milan

RAI TRE strongly against Juventus (ideology?)

ITALIA 7 is owned by Cecchi Gory former owner of Fiorentina and movie producer it totally against Juve and pro Roma

"A government survey in 1995 found that only 60% of thepopulation read a newspaper at least once a week, withmore than a third admitting to never picking up a paperat all. The combined circulation of the twelve leadingdailies is less than 3.7 million. A steady decline in sales,and the rise in popularity of free newspapers and magazines,has led to a decline in revenues from the sectorand the result has been that several non-publishing businesseshave invested in the print media market, often toinfluence public opinion and politics. As Paul Ginsborgpoints out, “The narrowness of control in television wasmirrored by that in the media in general. In the mid-80sfor example, FIAT controlled La Stampa, Il Corriere dellaSerra, La Gazzetta dello Sport, and all the magazines ofthe Rizzoli publishing house. The oil billionaire AttilioMonti owned an extensive press empire in the provinces,including daily papers in Tuscany, Emilia-Romagna andFriuli-Venezia Giulia. Cecchi Gori dominated film productionand owned a large string of cinemas. All this addedup to an oligopoly unmatched in other European democracies.”The names may have changed slightly but thepattern is still the same today."

Newspapers in order of importance for soccer coverage and diffusion:

Gazzetta dello Sport is pro-Juve and Milan

Tuttosport is pro-Juve and Milan

Corriere dello Sport here I disagree with you is totally pro-Roma and against Juve.

And so on. if you want more about media, just ask.

xziz

___________________________________________
EMMA BONINO FOR EUROPEAN COMMISSIONER
___________________________________________

 

[gray]

Dude, you can't retort a post like Kaiser's by posting a chunk of something you found in google and typing a few lines under it, that's insulting

 

[xziz]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
The heart of Europe designates my current city of residence, i.e. Brussels, home of the European Union and NATO headquarters and located in a very central position geographically speaking. I am however a pure product of Italy's North (mother being Turinese and dad being Lombard), so you can't suspect me of "Romaphilia" nor "Czechophilia" (though I'd recommend a visit to the Chick Rep...I mean, CZECH Republic to anyone willing to have a good time). Speaking of kinship, you do know that Zeman is the nephew of a certain Cestmir Vycpalek, i.e. Juventus' coach in the 70's, right?

OK sorry for the misunserstanding and suspecting you of fostering your kinship. Yes I did know about "the nephew of a certain Cestmir Vycpalek". BTW I know Brussels because I have been flying in quite a few times for business.

xziz

 

[xziz]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
Dude, you can't retort a post like Kaiser's by posting a chunk of something you found in google and typing a few lines under it, that's insulting

Gray, let us face it I think Bush must go out and somebody else must take over.

Besides that, please read what I write before replying, it will make you look smarter.

xziz :fero:

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by xziz ] ++
Besides that, please read what I write before replying, it will make you look smarter.

It might make me look smarter, but in reality i'll probably get dumber

j/k mate

 

[Kaiser Franco]

What does Bush have to do with a discussion about the wonders of Zemanlandia?

xziz,

I chose the nickname Kaiser Franco in honour of the legendary Franco Baresi, the greatest defender in the history of football together with Franz Beckenbauer, who was notoriously nicknamed Kaiser Franz.

I am not ashamed to say that Berlusca is Milan's President. In fact I am grateful to him for having turned Milan into what it is today, as without his massive cash inflows we would probably still be playing the likes of Cavese in serie B.

I am however quite ashamed of the fact that he is our Prime Minister, and those who know me well enough here are aware of how critical I am of his unsolved conflicts of interests, his attempts to re-write the law in order to avoid prosecution, his murky past (from his friendship with Craxi to Fininvest's ties with Cosa Nostra) and more generally the damage he has caused to Italy's image on the European stage, which I can witness on a daily basis in an international city like Brussels.

But I still don't get the point you are trying to get across here. Milan and Juve are not exactly enemies. In fact they are, if anything, the closest thing there is to partners in crime. Fininvest owns the biggest publishing house in the country, while Fiat owns the second biggest. Mediaset's Empire covers TV channels, advertising companies and newspapers, as does Fiat's, except for the TV channels. So what exactly is this "anti-Juve press" you are alluding to, and if there is such a thing, don't you believe that it's only natural that other voices are heard too, especially in view of the huge advantage in terms of financial support and media coverage from which the pro-Juve and pro-Milan sides can benefit?

Also, how are Raidue or the Domenica Sportiva pro-Roma? Surely Marco Mazzocchi, the presentator, is a notorious Roma fan, but it's not as if he spends his time demolishing Juve, and the critics he invites aren't exactly famous for their pro-Roma views (Boniek is an ex Juve player, Beccantini and that other guy whose name escapes me write for the conservative and "pro-North" Corriere della Sera, Mazzola is an Inter man, Galeazzi supports Lazio...etc, even Tosatti on Novantesimo Minuto isn't exactly Roma-friendly).

Raitre hardly ever broadcasts sporting events so I don't know what your beef is with them. Mediaset's channels are owned by Berlusconi, so yes they tend to be pro-Milan but that hardly makes them anti-Juve, on the contrary. Finally, La7 is quite simply the only channel that doesn't belong to the state or to Berlusconi (which nowadays is the same thing), and it has far less viewers than any of the big private or public channels, so it shouldn't represent that big of a threat, should it?

 

[xziz]

Kaiser Franco, I apologize for starting of so aggressive with you. I think I saw giallorosso and got into charging mode. However

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++

Also, how are Raidue or the Domenica Sportiva pro-Roma? Surely Marco Mazzocchi, the presentator, is a notorious Roma fan, but it's not as if he spends his time demolishing Juve, and the critics he invites aren't exactly famous for their pro-Roma views (Boniek is an ex Juve player, Beccantini and that other guy whose name escapes me write for the conservative and "pro-North" Corriere della Sera, Mazzola is an Inter man, Galeazzi supports Lazio...etc, even Tosatti on Novantesimo Minuto isn't exactly Roma-friendly).

RIATRE hardly ever broadcasts sporting events so I don't know what your beef is with them. Mediaset's channels are owned by Berlusconi, so yes they tend to be pro-Milan but that hardly makes them anti-Juve, on the contrary. Finally, La7 is quite simply the only channel that doesn't belong to the state or to Berlusconi (which nowadays is the same thing), and it has far less viewers than any of the big private or public channels, so it shouldn't represent that big of a threat, should it?

Mazzocchi is dedicated to demolishing Juve, at a point that Juventus have withdrawn from RAI DUE interviews for quite lengthy periods of time. Or used not to send player but only the Managing Director Moggi.

Plus, I am glad you spoke about Boniek. I do not know what it is with this guy but he is enraged against Juve, every single sentence comes out of his mouth contains an attack to Juve. I cannot reconcile this as I have the best memories of Platini and Boniek playing together at Juve. However, I suppose he must have been really disappointed for having been sold out to Roma at the end of his career, instead of continuing beeing part of Juve wins.

RAITRE is the one that sponsored the 90 min special about Juventus trial for abuse of pharmaceuticals, which by the way has not ended yet.

The three MEDIASET networks, ITALIA 1, CANALE 5, and RETE 4 in 2001 amounted to 45% of the audience and 60% of the advertizing revenues. I can assure you that figure have dramatically increased after B E R L U S C O N I became prime minister and came to control RAI.

xziz :devil:

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by xziz ] ++
Kaiser Franco, I apologize for starting of so aggressive with you. I think I saw giallorosso

If you think it was bad before, wait till he sees that you accused him of being a Roma fan

 

[Kaiser Franco]

It's ok, I actually don't hate Roma, and I certainly prefer them to Nazio.

I haven't got the chance to see the Domenica Sportiva as often as i'd like to, but I personally haven't much of a problem with Mazzocchi either. To me he comes across as this funny-looking, jovial and dynamic guy who will try to be as nice as possible to his guests and look kind of embarrassed when some fight breaks out (as was the case last night between Mazzola and Nazio's President Lotito).

You have to admit that Moggi isn't the best communicator around. Oftentimes he will be asked rather benign questions to which he will reply with cryptic answers as if he was keeping some state secret or by having a go at the journalists for always being after a scoop and insinuate things (unlike Sensi, who will exclusively have a go at the journalists). Lippi and Capello are really the masters at that btw : I lost the count of the times when I heard them say whenever asked to comment about some controversial action : "you know me, I never speak about the moviola", only to crucify the referee two weeks later for not having awarded a peno or for wrongly calling an offside.

From what I can gather, Boniek simply likes to defend the exact opposite of what his colleagues say just for the sake of starting an argument, though I now do recall him having been accused by some Juve guy of being a turncoat. Also, it's amazing that after living more than 20 years in Italy he still doesn't use articles when speaking Italian. But on the whole I like him, as he often makes pertinent observations.

I don't dispute that Berlusca's channels have profited from his being PM (in fact I condemn this fact), but again, this is hardly something that will harm Juventus...

 

[xziz]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
... I personally haven't much of a problem with Mazzocchi either. To me he comes across as this funny-looking, jovial and dynamic guy who will try to be as nice as possible to his guests and look kind of embarrassed when some fight breaks out (as was the case last night between Mazzola and Nazio's President Lotito).

...

From what I can gather, Boniek simply likes to defend the exact opposite of what his colleagues say just for the sake of starting an argument, though I now do recall him having been accused by some Juve guy of being a turncoat. Also, it's amazing that after living more than 20 years in Italy he still doesn't use articles when speaking Italian. But on the whole I like him, as he often makes pertinent observations.

I don't dispute that Berlusca's channels have profited from his being PM (in fact I condemn this fact), but again, this is hardly something that will harm Juventus...

Mazzocchi proactively constructs his show against Juventus. He focuses only on themes, such as Del Piero is finished, moviola constructed against juventus, giving a huge space to ugly bastard Boniek just because he always speaks against Juve. I am sure when ugly face Boniek is fired by RAI he will get a contract with Italia 1, because he never speaks against Milan.

I do not dispute the Berlusconi manipulated Italians by controlling more than 50% of the media and intimidating the rest, simply because you cannot dispute it. Having Berlusconi as a president of a football club is the equivalent of having Mussolini, or Hitler, or Stalin, or Mao Tse Tung.

xziz :fero:

 

[Kaiser Franco]

Need I to comment on that last statement? Nah...

Or maybe I will : it's because of statements like the one above that Italians vote en masse for Berlusconi. Keep demonising him instead of addressing the real issues and you will only make him stronger.

 

[xziz]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
Need I to comment on that last statement? Nah...

Or maybe I will : it's because of statements like the one above that Italians vote en masse for Berlusconi. Keep demonising him instead of addressing the real issues and you will only make him stronger.

Kaiser, do you vote B E R L U S C O N I just because is MILAN president?

xziz

 

[Kaiser Franco]

I never voted for Berlusconi. It's little wankers like you who think politics and football are the same thing that do. Now hush, little fella.

 

[xziz]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
I never voted for Berlusconi. It's little wankers like you who think politics and football are the same thing that do. Now hush, little fella.

So if you did not vote B E R L U S C O N I, did you recycle his MAFIA money?

littlekaiserstomper :geek:

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by xziz ] ++
So if you did not vote B E R L U S C O N I, did you recycle his MAFIA money?

littlekaiserstomper :geek:

I've got nothing against a good intelligent discussion here and there, but comments like this don't help anyone. I'm not singling you out here xziz, but this is the last post of the thread, and if it continues on like this, I'll make that indefinite

 

[zemanlandia.com]

www.zemanlandia.com

my gift to zdenek zeman...