Andrea Pirlo (92 Viewers)

[Robee]

The point is that no club with an actual top coach would think to themselves "hey, let's fire this coach so we can spend a few million more on the players". As I said earlier, of course you need top players but you also need a good coach. I'm sure Liverpool and City for example are quite happy to have their expensive coaches.

Sure, but in a bad financial slump you have to choose. It's not like we're sitting on a big pile of cash to pay 3 coaches...

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I'd say paying 7m to Allegri this season would've been way more useful than paying that to Rabiot, Ramsey or Bonucci, but to each his own.

That's why we're talking about quality and not a few overpaid pillons. I'd much rather pay those 7 million to Barella and Aouar.

 

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[il brutto]

Sure, but in a bad financial slump you have to choose. It's not like we're sitting on a big pile of cash to pay 3 coaches...

Our wage bill does not reflect that. We've been spending money on players wages pretty carelessly.

 

[Strickland]

They don't because they buy good players first.

Zidane wasn't a novice like Pirlo but still a beginner. He won a 3-peat of Champions Leagues...

It's like with players, some coaches turn out to be WC like Zidane and Conte, they do have to emerge from somewhere. Is Pirlo showing signs of being one of those coaches? I don't see it, the team under him is very inconsistent, often toothless and the results are very bad.

 

[Robee]

It's like with players, some coaches turn out to be WC like Zidane and Conte, they do have to emerge from somewhere. Is Pirlo showing signs of being one of those coaches? I don't see it, the team under him is very inconsistent, often toothless and the results are very bad.

Conte's world classness has yet to bring him past the quarter finals of a CL. And Zidane is showing what he can do with a lesser squad this season: struggle.
I don't see Pirlo showing signs of that either, no certainly not. So I wouldn't exactly be opposed to a switch if... I'm repeating myself here.


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Our wage bill does not reflect that. We've been spending money on players wages pretty carelessly.

It does since we've been trying to trim it in every way possible. We can't even agree on a contract with our MVP who we already tried to trade.

 

[Strickland]

Conte's world classness has yet to bring him past the quarter finals of a CL. And Zidane is showing what he can do with a lesser squad this season: struggle.
I don't see Pirlo showing signs of that either, no.

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It does since we've been trying to trim it in every way possible. We can't even agree on a contract with our MVP who we already tried to trade.

Every coach struggles and fails, they're not magic unicorns farting only rainbows. However to me it's pretty clear that Conte and Zidane are both WC, not sure what you're trying to say there. Put them in charge of Juve with the same players Pirlo has and they'd earn their 12m or whatever salary, same with Allegri.

 

[Robee]

Every coach struggles and fails, they're not magic unicorns farting only rainbows. However to me it's pretty clear that Conte and Zidane are both WC, not sure what you're trying to say there. Put them in charge of Juve with the same players Pirlo has and they'd earn their 12m or whatever salary, same with Allegri.

I'm saying anyone would've won with that squad because they were simply superior to the rest of them. As were Barcelona back then. Pep won 2/3 CLs with Messi but didn't even make it to the final in how many years afters that?

If ain't clear now it'll never be: it were there fucking teams. Put Zidane here and he would barely do any better. Just look at Madrid now. Just look at the disjointed bunch if Ramos is out for a game.

Conte as a manager is great. He'd surely do better, but fuck him. We need a more modern coach anyway.

 

[Strickland]

I'm saying anyone would've won with that squad because they were simply superior to the rest of them. As were Barcelona back then. Pep won 2/3 CLs with Messi but didn't even make it to the final in how many years afters that?

If ain't clear now it'll never be: it were there fucking teams. Put Zidane here and he would barely do any better. Just look at Madrid now. Just look at the disjointed bunch if Ramos is out for a game.

I haven't looked at Madrid much this season, but they are in CL quarters, I'd slow down with crucifying Zidane And Barca surely is missing Pep as well, he isn't the only one that hasn't performed to the expectations after that breakup.

 

[Robee]

I haven't looked at Madrid much this season, but they are in CL quarters, I'd slow down with crucifying Zidane And Barca surely is missing Pep as well, he isn't the only one that hasn't performed to the expectations after that breakup.

Real topped the group but with only 2 games to go they were at real risk of finishing third. Inter fucked up and dropped out instead of them...

Barca even won it after Pep with Luis Enrique. Then after the Neymar loss they went down. Barca is in the same boat as us now; difficult finances and in need of a rebuild. I'd say we are one year further down the line with the transfers we did last summer. I'm curious what they'll offer Messi.

 

[Strickland]

Barca even won it with Luis Enrique. Then after the Neymar loss they went down.

Yup, proof that even poor coaches can win if given an abundance of talent. However, he didnt 3peat in CL like Zidane even though the talent on those teams was similar to Madrid at their best.

 

[Osman]

Of course but not as much as using the 10 mil for some fucking good players.

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Wtf, are you serious?


The nr 1 job you need to get right before ANYONE else in a football organisation, is having the right competent coach to right the ship. Without that part settled, you are fvcked. That extra 10m to sign a player means NOTHING, if you have an incompetent who will make quality players look like they are worth penny on the dollar, due to total lack of tactical know how, man management, in game decision making etc.

 

[Juliano13]

Yes, in which Bentancur and Arthur were the problems. Maybe just try and analyse instead of being shortsighted.
If we didn't improve then how come we have the most created chances and the best defence while we were horribly open on the counter attack in the first part of the season? People forget easily.

I'm not advocating Pirlo to stay. I'm advocating to improve the fucking horrific squad first.


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He wasn't. We also lost quite a few guys. Mandzukic, Higuain, Can, Pjanic, Cancelo, etc. On top of Chiellini and Dybala.

I feel like a mosquito at a nudist beach. I don't know where to start.

Allegri had Cancelo and Rugani starting against Ajax. If he had had Danilo and De Ligt, we would have qualified.

Sarri had Mandzukic and didn't want him. We have Morata now. Are you seriously suggesting he's not an upgrade over Higuain, who is basically retired?

Emre Can

Overall, there's not much difference, except for the defence which has been significantly upgraded. And yet, we look comically bad. It's embarassing. Coming from 9 consecutive titles and now fighting for a CL spot after outspending everyone is a disaster.

Every loser coach has some excuse. I've never heard one say that he is shit. Injuries? People forget how many injuries Allegri had to deal with over the years. Remember 2015/16? A totally changed squad and nightmare injury crisis and yet we came back and won it. If Pirlo had been the manager then we would have finished 8th.

If you can't see how competely clueless Pirlo is then you are blind. It's an insult to even compare him to Allegri.

 

[Osman]

I'd say paying 7m to Allegri this season would've been way more useful than paying that to Rabiot, Ramsey or Bonucci, but to each his own.

Indeed. For anyone with a half a brain, this would be a duh-uh math to make Anyone arguing otherwise makes no sense or have a biased agenda of some kind. Coach is by the most important to get right, last place to penny pinch, since he effects how everything functions from top to bottom.

 

[Juliano13]

Instead of giving some -pardon me- quite useless examples of teams that spend millions before or after their coaching switches, actually use the statistics. There is a shitoad of literature proving it doesn't make a difference with the same players...

For instance this one: over a period of 10 years in Spanish football:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3592111/

Summary: short shock effect, long term effect non-existent.


Said no one . He's being mentioned since he's a decent utility player. Seeing as the other side uses Kulu, he crossed my mind...

I am sorry I didn't read that before replying to your previous post. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Juliano13]

Wtf, are you serious?


The nr 1 job you need to get right before ANYONE else in a football organisation, is having the right competent coach to right the ship. Without that part settled, you are fvcked. That extra 10m to sign a player means NOTHING, if you have an incompetent who will make quality players look like they are worth penny on the dollar, due to total lack of tactical know how, man management, in game decision making etc.

Why are you even arguing with him? Just put him on your ignore list. He thinks spending an additional few million on player wages is more productive than upgrading your noob coach

That was probably the general opinion 30 years ago but things have changed. The first thing any self-respecting and ambitious team does is spend money on a top coach.

 

[s4tch]

Instead of giving some -pardon me- quite useless examples of teams that spend millions before or after their coaching switches, actually use the statistics. There is a shitoad of literature proving it doesn't make a difference with the same players...

For instance this one: over a period of 10 years in Spanish football:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3592111/

Summary: short shock effect, long term effect non-existent.

here's an other stat for you:

we have the largest wage bill of the league and 92% is a pretty strong stat, so why even bother, right?

point is that stats won't explain everything. watching our matches, it's pretty clear for the observer that we have a badly coached squad. you can spend an other 10m on wages, this wouldn't explain why cuadrado and chiesa NEVER play on the same side (i reckon they would make a deadly duo, it is certainly worth at least ONE try, isn't it), why we are forcing the build-up from the back before learning how to play against high pressure, why we aren't exploiting counters more with pacey players like morata, chiesa, cuadrado and cr in our team, why we can't stay compact even if our life depended on it, how can't we stay concentrated for 90 minutes, how can't we string 3 passes together in the opposition box, why we are forcing the hybrid setup despite being way too vulnerable with it, how come that we never have more than 1-2 in-form players, etc. these are mostly down to bad preparation, and can't be explained by stats.

if you want to explain something with stats, try to find a stat for rookie coaches in top flights. some ideas: gattuso, inzaghi, leonardo, ferrara, stramacconi. you can put zidane there too, wouldn't change the big picture too much.

 

[rakib567]

I feel like a mosquito at a nudist beach. I don't know where to start.

Allegri had Cancelo and Rugani starting against Ajax. If he had had Danilo and De Ligt, we would have qualified.

Sarri had Mandzukic and didn't want him. We have Morata now. Are you seriously suggesting he's not an upgrade over Higuain, who is basically retired?

Emre Can

Overall, there's not much difference, except for the defence which has been significantly upgraded. And yet, we look comically bad. It's embarassing. Coming from 9 consecutive titles and now fighting for a CL spot after outspending everyone is a disaster.

Every loser coach has some excuse. I've never heard one say that he is shit. Injuries? People forget how many injuries Allegri had to deal with over the years. Remember 2015/16? A totally changed squad and nightmare injury crisis and yet we came back and won it. If Pirlo had been the manager then we would have finished 8th.

If you can't see how competely clueless Pirlo is then you are blind. It's an insult to even compare him to Allegri.

Not necessarily. What people don't realise is that a match loss isnt individual personell, its a team effort. From ronaldo taking free kicks into the wall, to szczesny not paying attention for a 50 yard free kick, to bentancur passing back for stupid reasons or pirlo having no grinta.

many problems.

 

[Robee]

I see this view stirs the pot. Got some replying to do. But I'll not spending my sunday rehashing my own shit so after that, ciao

here's an other stat for you:

we have the largest wage bill of the league and 92% is a pretty strong stat, so why even bother, right?

point is that stats won't explain everything. watching our matches, it's pretty clear for the observer that we have a badly coached squad. you can spend an other 10m on wages, this wouldn't explain why cuadrado and chiesa NEVER play on the same side (i reckon they would make a deadly duo, it is certainly worth at least ONE try, isn't it), why we are forcing the build-up from the back before learning how to play against high pressure, why we aren't exploiting counters more with pacey players like morata, chiesa, cuadrado and cr in our team, why we can't stay compact even if our life depended on it, how can't we stay concentrated for 90 minutes, how can't we string 3 passes together in the opposition box, why we are forcing the hybrid setup despite being way too vulnerable with it, how come that we never have more than 1-2 in-form players, etc. these are mostly down to bad preparation, and can't be explained by stats.

if you want to explain something with stats, try to find a stat for rookie coaches in top flights. some ideas: gattuso, inzaghi, leonardo, ferrara, stramacconi. you can put zidane there too, wouldn't change the big picture too much.

I'm not only using stats. You've literally taken one small point out of a thousand.

And the whole thing about downsizing our wage bill is because it's way too big for the quality we have.

Cuads and Chiesa have played on the same side in the first half of the season somewhere. Chiesa was obviously in the way of Cuads. Almost all of the other questions have been a problem for over 3 years now but blame it all on Pirlo. Ooh yeah, you can't counter if you can't pass a freaking ball forward without touching it 5 times first. And you can't absorb pressure if you don't play out from the back. Hoofing it forward won't make you learn to absorb pressure obviously. Also that is partly why we changed to Sarri and Pirlo instead of keeping Allegri and why we're having difficulties. We're trying to change the whole nature of our game.

Also there's a lot of rookie coaches that have done very well lately. What you really want is to look at the teams those guys coached and see why those teams took a rookie coach; because of longer ongoing problems (financially and sporting wise) and good coaches not wanting to take the risk with a shitty squad. Let me reming you Allegri, Gasperini & Mihajlovic also failed with those teams. Different story for Zidane in that row, then again, he performed.

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I feel like a mosquito at a nudist beach. I don't know where to start.

Allegri had Cancelo and Rugani starting against Ajax. If he had had Danilo and De Ligt, we would have qualified.

Sarri had Mandzukic and didn't want him. We have Morata now. Are you seriously suggesting he's not an upgrade over Higuain, who is basically retired?

Emre Can

Overall, there's not much difference, except for the defence which has been significantly upgraded. And yet, we look comically bad. It's embarassing. Coming from 9 consecutive titles and now fighting for a CL spot after outspending everyone is a disaster.

Every loser coach has some excuse. I've never heard one say that he is shit. Injuries? People forget how many injuries Allegri had to deal with over the years. Remember 2015/16? A totally changed squad and nightmare injury crisis and yet we came back and won it. If Pirlo had been the manager then we would have finished 8th.

If you can't see how competely clueless Pirlo is then you are blind. It's an insult to even compare him to Allegri.

Those are some lame excuses for the Ajax game. Didn't you just say 'only losers have excuses'. So if Pirlo had Danilo and Arthur and Dybala against Porto. Dybala fit for a whole season...

It's people blinded by their disappointment that don't see what Pirlo actually did, or Allegri did, or Sarri did for that matter.

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Wtf, are you serious?


The nr 1 job you need to get right before ANYONE else in a football organisation, is having the right competent coach to right the ship. Without that part settled, you are fvcked. That extra 10m to sign a player means NOTHING, if you have an incompetent who will make quality players look like they are worth penny on the dollar, due to total lack of tactical know how, man management, in game decision making etc.

Ooh, but I agree the coach is very important. Only no to the extent where he can do it without good players. So I'm all for changing Pirlo after fixing our midfield.

Losing a single player like Dybala (who's not even on 10 mil) showed us how much difference it makes. He & Ronaldo won us the scudetto almost single handedly last season.

People also used that arguement every week 3 years ago; "Allegri is too reliant on individual talent" bla bla bla, which is only normal after all.
I guess if it's the most important thing in football, you'd have seen City and Bayern win the CL or at least go to a final with Pep.

I take McKennie and see a hungry player; good job coach. I see Rabiot and see a lazy pussy; bad job coach. Nah, man. We simply need more players with that mentality and more leaders on the field. We lost a lot of experience while getting younger. And if we can put a better coach in there in the meantime, perfect.

 

[Mike-e-y]

Instead of giving some -pardon me- quite useless examples of teams that spend millions before or after their coaching switches, actually use the statistics. There is a shitoad of literature proving it doesn't make a difference with the same players...

For instance this one: over a period of 10 years in Spanish football:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3592111/

Summary: short shock effect, long term effect non-existent.

Excellent - I didn’t misunderstand your post then. You are just absolutely clueless about football in general. There’s no point furthering this debate as when an adult debates with a child they will lose even though their reasoning, common sense and logic is superior - the child’s will and belief in their incorrect train of thought means they’ll continue to flog their dead horse despite being galaxies from reality.

So in your reality: Managers don’t make a difference, everyone gets the same levels of performance out of their players - we should appoint Andrea Agnelli’s pet dog Fido next as long as we throw money at the squad as a change in manager with the same players will only have a short term effect as statistically proven over the last century of professional football. Management also doesn’t matter in our own jobs so in my own experience where I’ve been lead by a poor and unskilled manager that’s just myth and make believe.

Right - got it. Thanks for your enlightening contribution to the forum.

 

[Robee]

Excellent - I didn’t misunderstand your post then. You are just absolutely clueless about football in general. There’s no point furthering this debate as when an adult debates with a child they will lose even though their reasoning, common sense and logic is superior - the child’s will and belief in their incorrect train of thought means they’ll continue to flog their dead horse despite being galaxies from reality.

So in your reality: Managers don’t make a difference, everyone gets the same levels of performance out of their players - we should appoint Andrea Agnelli’s pet dog Fido next as long as we throw money at the squad as a change in manager with the same players will only have a short term effect as statistically proven over the last century of professional football. Management also doesn’t matter in our own jobs so in my own experience where I’ve been lead by a poor and unskilled manager that’s just myth and make believe.

Right - got it. Thanks for your enlightening contribution to the forum.

Good talk. Always thought attacking is a form of weakness but hey.

And I don't believe any of those things you think I said . I guess you simply didn't want to understand my rationale, no biggie.

Some guys just don't (want to) see all the middle ground that covers everything between the 2 extremes. Big problem nowadays.

 

[Juliano13]

Excellent - I didn’t misunderstand your post then. You are just absolutely clueless about football in general. There’s no point furthering this debate as when an adult debates with a child they will lose even though their reasoning, common sense and logic is superior - the child’s will and belief in their incorrect train of thought means they’ll continue to flog their dead horse despite being galaxies from reality.

So in your reality: Managers don’t make a difference, everyone gets the same levels of performance out of their players - we should appoint Andrea Agnelli’s pet dog Fido next as long as we throw money at the squad as a change in manager with the same players will only have a short term effect as statistically proven over the last century of professional football. Management also doesn’t matter in our own jobs so in my own experience where I’ve been lead by a poor and unskilled manager that’s just myth and make believe.

Right - got it. Thanks for your enlightening contribution to the forum.

First of all, that aggression is uncalled for. I don't know if he is a deliberate troll (I don't think so) but he provides some very much needed comic relief during these bad times.

And second, I have to admit there is at least some truth in what Robee is saying. Will there really be a difference if we change Pirlo with Agnelli's dog?