Built Juve from provincial club to world powerhouse, that's good to excuse at least 5 shitty mercatos.
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Andrea "Il Bruco Brutto" Agnelli (36 Viewers)
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It actually happened the other way around since the small Agnellis took over, their ruining the club, not building, we are getting worse year after year, with less stars in our squad, less appeal and less chances to win smth ever again...
The Agnelli are milking money from Juve, if not only directly but indirectly as well, being the owner of the biggest Italian club in Italy gives you a privilege status that helps your business.
Being forced to sell off the team would be a critical blow to their growing prestige, as they were barely at their beginning of their quest to become smth in the world of important men.
Giving up Juve right away would mark them as the boys who had the best italian club there is, in their hands and failed to manage it.
Time will tell exactly how much and how they have managed to milk form Juve (when they will finally sell her off)
Look carefully to all the deals made after calciopoli and point me out where was the intend to build a competitive team??
The solely intend was ALWAYS to appease the Italian fans, keep them happy with insignificant gains, keep them delusional and entertained with a bunch of dribblers who can offer the spectacle they never had, but no results.
There never was an intend to gain results, there are many many things that prove that, the primary ones are the choices of un-existent cheap coaches and the lack of invest on the defense, the traditional and proven (by Juve for decades/centuries) backbone of a champion team and the percentage of quality players in the first eleven.
Canna, Thuram, Mutu did not abandon the ship, they were forced out!
The choice to keep them was there, but the Agnellis invested the sum a year later, after the FIGC gave them 3x the money to accept the relegation and eternal disgrace of our name.
I would respect them if they were selling the club then and there, rather than keep it with the sole purpose to turn into a mid-table team forever and milk the extra cash, as long as the jersey still bears some value (for 10-20 years) based on the old memories.
The money invested on Juve are not entirely theirs, the shareholders and income from tickets and the millions from the TV rights are enough to secure the 50mil we spend every year for transfers.
But the credit of being Juve's owners is entirely on their pockets.
Many many errors were made, mostly due to incompetence, but also because of the intend to keep the fans distracted and hopping, rather than build a competitive team for the future. The muppets they use for scapegoats not only indicate this, but also admit after they were spent.
Another proof is that we keep repeating the same mistakes, that ought have taught smth even to an idiot and incompetent junkie who inherited a legacy too far too handle. (like the insist on Italian cheap defenders, clueless coaches, keep buying fancy SSs and CMs to hype the fans)
By repeating these mistakes, they admit that they dont have the intend to improve, but to further extend the current situation as long as its possible, for as long as it serves their purposes.
For ex a coach like Ferrara can appease to the fans, can be manipulate to use the SSs CMs they want to pass on and then can be used as a scapegoat.
If he was just an accident, they wouldnt choose a Conte right he has failed.
Thats a crystal clear proof of their intention, Ferrara served well as a puppet, he appeased the fans, they paid the tickets and TV rights and then he was used as a scapegoat, instead of them. Thats exactly what they aimed for, the true reason they chose him.
The tiny stadium is partially founded from us, in time we will learn exactly how much they paid, how much the shareholders and sponsors covered and we will see the invested sum, which is probably going to be less than the money they will make when they sell the club.
The dimensions of the stadium also proves the lack of ambitions and acceptance of the fact that the new age Juve will be a smaller club, grwing smaller and smaller by the year.
DD, Secco, Gigli and Blanc all served their purpose flawlessly from their persepective, they knew that some completely clueless and incompetent directors would never succeed, their purpose was merely to firstly hype and appease the fans and then turn into scapegoats instead of them. They were pleased with this success and this is why the keep brining in ppl of the same profile!
As Nenna pointed out, the problem is not that we spend little, but where and when we spend it, with what purpose and reasoning, every year, the intend is to impress, not to improve!
Once again, this year we have spent the biggest part of our budget and attention to sign new fancy SS and CM, not world class players, but enough to attract the fans and raise their hopes.
Again made no investment on one of the crappiest defenses of the league.
Again did not hire a proper coach a proven coach.
Again we have opted for quantity over quality, again we have chosen chances ephemeral unisignificant, rather than strategical reinforcements.
There are tons of proofs out there, accumulating with every passing year, since when you are going to ignore them and being so naive to think that they are driven from their love to the club they didnt hesitate to sacrifice, for FIAT's momentum or the common good of serie A, that hates or guts?
Anyway, even if their intention were true, you are ignoring also a very important fact, to win smth in Italy, it only matters that you must be strong enough to deserve, rather than actually earn it.
As our triade has proved, being more successful than powerful will bite you in the end.
Having the best squad, coach and directors was still not enough when you are owned by helpless man, who have no influence/authority.
The Agnellis boys proven that, the wrote history, after many decades this lesson will be taught to our grand children...
PS; this was my original stance since 5 years ago and every year since then, the Agnelli boys provide more proofs to support it.
The Agnelli are milking money from Juve, if not only directly but indirectly as well, being the owner of the biggest Italian club in Italy gives you a privilege status that helps your business.
Being forced to sell off the team would be a critical blow to their growing prestige, as they were barely at their beginning of their quest to become smth in the world of important men.
Giving up Juve right away would mark them as the boys who had the best italian club there is, in their hands and failed to manage it.
Time will tell exactly how much and how they have managed to milk form Juve (when they will finally sell her off)
Look carefully to all the deals made after calciopoli and point me out where was the intend to build a competitive team??
The solely intend was ALWAYS to appease the Italian fans, keep them happy with insignificant gains, keep them delusional and entertained with a bunch of dribblers who can offer the spectacle they never had, but no results.
There never was an intend to gain results, there are many many things that prove that, the primary ones are the choices of un-existent cheap coaches and the lack of invest on the defense, the traditional and proven (by Juve for decades/centuries) backbone of a champion team and the percentage of quality players in the first eleven.
Canna, Thuram, Mutu did not abandon the ship, they were forced out!
The choice to keep them was there, but the Agnellis invested the sum a year later, after the FIGC gave them 3x the money to accept the relegation and eternal disgrace of our name.
I would respect them if they were selling the club then and there, rather than keep it with the sole purpose to turn into a mid-table team forever and milk the extra cash, as long as the jersey still bears some value (for 10-20 years) based on the old memories.
The money invested on Juve are not entirely theirs, the shareholders and income from tickets and the millions from the TV rights are enough to secure the 50mil we spend every year for transfers.
But the credit of being Juve's owners is entirely on their pockets.
Many many errors were made, mostly due to incompetence, but also because of the intend to keep the fans distracted and hopping, rather than build a competitive team for the future. The muppets they use for scapegoats not only indicate this, but also admit after they were spent.
Another proof is that we keep repeating the same mistakes, that ought have taught smth even to an idiot and incompetent junkie who inherited a legacy too far too handle. (like the insist on Italian cheap defenders, clueless coaches, keep buying fancy SSs and CMs to hype the fans)
By repeating these mistakes, they admit that they dont have the intend to improve, but to further extend the current situation as long as its possible, for as long as it serves their purposes.
For ex a coach like Ferrara can appease to the fans, can be manipulate to use the SSs CMs they want to pass on and then can be used as a scapegoat.
If he was just an accident, they wouldnt choose a Conte right he has failed.
Thats a crystal clear proof of their intention, Ferrara served well as a puppet, he appeased the fans, they paid the tickets and TV rights and then he was used as a scapegoat, instead of them. Thats exactly what they aimed for, the true reason they chose him.
The tiny stadium is partially founded from us, in time we will learn exactly how much they paid, how much the shareholders and sponsors covered and we will see the invested sum, which is probably going to be less than the money they will make when they sell the club.
The dimensions of the stadium also proves the lack of ambitions and acceptance of the fact that the new age Juve will be a smaller club, grwing smaller and smaller by the year.
DD, Secco, Gigli and Blanc all served their purpose flawlessly from their persepective, they knew that some completely clueless and incompetent directors would never succeed, their purpose was merely to firstly hype and appease the fans and then turn into scapegoats instead of them. They were pleased with this success and this is why the keep brining in ppl of the same profile!
As Nenna pointed out, the problem is not that we spend little, but where and when we spend it, with what purpose and reasoning, every year, the intend is to impress, not to improve!
Once again, this year we have spent the biggest part of our budget and attention to sign new fancy SS and CM, not world class players, but enough to attract the fans and raise their hopes.
Again made no investment on one of the crappiest defenses of the league.
Again did not hire a proper coach a proven coach.
Again we have opted for quantity over quality, again we have chosen chances ephemeral unisignificant, rather than strategical reinforcements.
There are tons of proofs out there, accumulating with every passing year, since when you are going to ignore them and being so naive to think that they are driven from their love to the club they didnt hesitate to sacrifice, for FIAT's momentum or the common good of serie A, that hates or guts?
Anyway, even if their intention were true, you are ignoring also a very important fact, to win smth in Italy, it only matters that you must be strong enough to deserve, rather than actually earn it.
As our triade has proved, being more successful than powerful will bite you in the end.
Having the best squad, coach and directors was still not enough when you are owned by helpless man, who have no influence/authority.
The Agnellis boys proven that, the wrote history, after many decades this lesson will be taught to our grand children...
PS; this was my original stance since 5 years ago and every year since then, the Agnelli boys provide more proofs to support it.
Yes, they are making money on Juventus, but how is that a bad thing? Would you rather we be full of debt?
They are also investing in the club. They've cleared debts, built us a stadium, and almost every summer we are the most active club on the transfer market. Unfortunately, we've made a lot of mistakes in the market, but that's beside the point.
Unfortunately we had Secco, but signing Diego for 25 million is definitely intent. So is signing Felipe Melo for 25 million and Amauri for 30 million. Sissoko cost 9-10 million and Secco believed he was going to be the new Vieira. We also dug deep into our pockets to keep Gigi Buffon. All of these signings I mentioned now SUCKED, and Secco is a DISGRACE, but you asked for the intent to build a competitive team, and there it is. The fact that Secco was an idiot is besides the point. As for Marotta, he's by no means the perfect DS. He's better than Secco, but he's also making mistakes, which sucks for us. But the intent to build a competitive team is still there. And intent is what we're discussing. Like I said in my earlier post, we are big spenders, believe it or not.
As for the coaches, yes. A lot of bad decisions. I agree. But it's no proof of not being ambitious, it's merely proof of wrong decisions.
That's bullshit, especially in the case of Thuram. Cannavaro was more subtle in his behavior, but he really wanted out. Mutu could probably have been convinced to stay, but I suppose he wasn't deemed indispensable.
Well, that's just never going to happen.
You do realize that we haven't made a dime on match day tickets and that no italian club is? We will start making money from match day tickets next season. As for TV rights, we are making some money from that, but remember that we lost the big tv deal that the triade secured.
I agree, and I'm not disputing this. But like I said, this is no proof for lack of ambition. It may be a proof of inexperience, but that's another matter.
Your logic: Ferrara was a former player with little coaching experience that sucked as Juve coach. Conte is a former Juve player with little coaching experience, like Ferrara, therefore he must suck as Juve coach.
Conte being brought in to appease the fans? Conte is no yes-man. Have a look at the Ziegler-situation. Marotta brought in Ziegler and Conte told Ziegler face to face, as well as the club, a couple of days ago, that the swiss is not in his plans and can be sold. He's sending Marotta on trips around the world trying to offload players he considers to be crap: Martinez, Amauri, Bonucci, Ziegler etc. He was also behind the departure of Melo.
Would you rather have Benitez, or? Gasperini? Because these were the alternatives. Hiddink and Wenger etc. were not on the market!
It's a perfect, stadium. Really. It's designed so that almost all seats have a great view of the game. This means that the club can charge a hefty sum for almost every ticket in that stadium. When you opt for another design, let's say in a 80 000 stadium that is built like the San Siro, then you can't charge a lot for the seats that are far away from the ground. It's not like a 80 000 seat stadium will gain twice as much income as a 40 000 seater.
I will just refer to what I've posted above. I agree with you that there have been mistakes and that mistakes are continuing to be made and they will also be made in the future. Even the triade made mistakes. Gladstone, anyone?
The important part is that one learns from one's mistakes, and I sense that the Agnellis are learning bit by bit what it takes to make this club great again.
That's fine. And don't worry, I remember you and your stances. I respect your opinion, it's not a problem. And we do agree on a lot of things, we can see the same mistakes. But our conclusions are different. You're taking them as proof for a lack of ambition and an intent to appease the fans, while I see something different. I see a club that's spending TONS of money, a club that builds a great stadium and intends to build a great future for Juventus, but that is unfortunately making a lot of mistakes along the way. But like you, I shall stick to my stance as well: Juventus will be great again, and it will be under the Agnelli regime.
They are also investing in the club. They've cleared debts, built us a stadium, and almost every summer we are the most active club on the transfer market. Unfortunately, we've made a lot of mistakes in the market, but that's beside the point.
Unfortunately we had Secco, but signing Diego for 25 million is definitely intent. So is signing Felipe Melo for 25 million and Amauri for 30 million. Sissoko cost 9-10 million and Secco believed he was going to be the new Vieira. We also dug deep into our pockets to keep Gigi Buffon. All of these signings I mentioned now SUCKED, and Secco is a DISGRACE, but you asked for the intent to build a competitive team, and there it is. The fact that Secco was an idiot is besides the point. As for Marotta, he's by no means the perfect DS. He's better than Secco, but he's also making mistakes, which sucks for us. But the intent to build a competitive team is still there. And intent is what we're discussing. Like I said in my earlier post, we are big spenders, believe it or not.
As for the coaches, yes. A lot of bad decisions. I agree. But it's no proof of not being ambitious, it's merely proof of wrong decisions.
That's bullshit, especially in the case of Thuram. Cannavaro was more subtle in his behavior, but he really wanted out. Mutu could probably have been convinced to stay, but I suppose he wasn't deemed indispensable.
Well, that's just never going to happen.
You do realize that we haven't made a dime on match day tickets and that no italian club is? We will start making money from match day tickets next season. As for TV rights, we are making some money from that, but remember that we lost the big tv deal that the triade secured.
I agree, and I'm not disputing this. But like I said, this is no proof for lack of ambition. It may be a proof of inexperience, but that's another matter.
Your logic: Ferrara was a former player with little coaching experience that sucked as Juve coach. Conte is a former Juve player with little coaching experience, like Ferrara, therefore he must suck as Juve coach.
Conte being brought in to appease the fans? Conte is no yes-man. Have a look at the Ziegler-situation. Marotta brought in Ziegler and Conte told Ziegler face to face, as well as the club, a couple of days ago, that the swiss is not in his plans and can be sold. He's sending Marotta on trips around the world trying to offload players he considers to be crap: Martinez, Amauri, Bonucci, Ziegler etc. He was also behind the departure of Melo.
Would you rather have Benitez, or? Gasperini? Because these were the alternatives. Hiddink and Wenger etc. were not on the market!
It's a perfect, stadium. Really. It's designed so that almost all seats have a great view of the game. This means that the club can charge a hefty sum for almost every ticket in that stadium. When you opt for another design, let's say in a 80 000 stadium that is built like the San Siro, then you can't charge a lot for the seats that are far away from the ground. It's not like a 80 000 seat stadium will gain twice as much income as a 40 000 seater.
I will just refer to what I've posted above. I agree with you that there have been mistakes and that mistakes are continuing to be made and they will also be made in the future. Even the triade made mistakes. Gladstone, anyone?
The important part is that one learns from one's mistakes, and I sense that the Agnellis are learning bit by bit what it takes to make this club great again.
That's fine. And don't worry, I remember you and your stances. I respect your opinion, it's not a problem. And we do agree on a lot of things, we can see the same mistakes. But our conclusions are different. You're taking them as proof for a lack of ambition and an intent to appease the fans, while I see something different. I see a club that's spending TONS of money, a club that builds a great stadium and intends to build a great future for Juventus, but that is unfortunately making a lot of mistakes along the way. But like you, I shall stick to my stance as well: Juventus will be great again, and it will be under the Agnelli regime.
To date, the only real mistake I see that Agnelli has made is hiring Marotta. I love the fact that he's really trying to defend our club in Calciopoli - it may be too late, but that's not because of Agnelli. So what am I missing guys?
He's only been on the job for a little while. Bad management selections happen quite often in sports, he's going to need some time to learn, to grow into the role.
Sometimes I think this guy takes so much hate because he's not a very pretty man
He's only been on the job for a little while. Bad management selections happen quite often in sports, he's going to need some time to learn, to grow into the role.
Sometimes I think this guy takes so much hate because he's not a very pretty man
Making money is one thing, but milking the club from its former status is another thing.
The 300mil we took are enough to fund 6 years of 50mil spends
Like they didnt knew what was Secco capable of, the fact that they have kept him for so much, clearly demonstrates their intention.
He served them well as a puppet and they were forced to dropp him, so that someone else takes the blame for the guidelines they have imposed.
Be serious, what kind of ambitions we were having when we were keeping Ferrara, or signing DN, and now Conte?
Thuram was bitter because we sold him off, Canna was always feeling uncomfortable with that and made a promise to return.
All 3 have accepted a huge price cut, in order to facilitate the one year transition period, Mutu was young enough to offer his services even today. If we were keeping him, we wouldnt have to loan Bojinov and buy Iaquinta and we could spend more cash on wingbacks.
But the guidelines was Ital-Juve and hyped champions.
its inevitable, and hopefully sooner than later
Of course we did, but we are still among the highest 3 earners and we will be, despite the fact that we dont deserve it, performance wise, thats why Juve can still be milked and will be milked as long as we have that fading allure. in ITaly...
Thats was valid for the first year only, but when you willingly repeat the same mistake, it means that it wasnt a mistake, a part of it serves yours interests.
Conte is a yes man, proved that in his first day comments and praise to Marotta afterwards.
Benitez and Gasperini made their names by coaching and winning smth, Ferrara and Conte have won nothing, its a no brainer.
But at any case, since we lack exp, the exp high class director, should be our highest priority, someone wise enough to avoid the countless mistakes we did. But our board doesnt want optimal management aiming at competence, they have their own agenda, obviously.
San Siro holds 80-90k seats, ours used to have about 70k, the emirates you admire has 60k and is considered relatively small, the tiny stadium we have built is a low budget stadium, made for smaller clubs.
The less seats we have, the less vip seats we may offer, the tougher it will be to watch CL semis and champion deciders.
45k is the least we should do, 50-55k would be ok, 60 would be perfect, 40k is way too small to be JUVENTUS home.
The mistake to spend 70-80 of your budget to buy a new CM and SS each and every year for 5 consecutive year has no excuses, no matter how stupid one can be, its impossible to learn nothing from after sooo many failures.
There is a pattern here and i ve explained in great detail and i ve been repeating it for 6 years...
I knew that it will happen again and i ve been posting about this for 3 months before the transfer market opens and without anyone imagining that we would sign Vidal or Vucinic.
There is a certain reason this pattern repeats and improve to performance is the one...
I also respect stances and men who respect them and support them with educated views/argumentation. Of course we can agree on some things, as it impossible to agree and disagree on everything
But the lack of ambition to win is there and its constant, some hard facts, (esp the coach, avoid to invest on certain problematic position, nationalism problem, quick fixes, choice on directors and coaches etc) cannot be denied and the rest of the details, just fill the picture.
The 300mil we took are enough to fund 6 years of 50mil spends
Like they didnt knew what was Secco capable of, the fact that they have kept him for so much, clearly demonstrates their intention.
He served them well as a puppet and they were forced to dropp him, so that someone else takes the blame for the guidelines they have imposed.
Be serious, what kind of ambitions we were having when we were keeping Ferrara, or signing DN, and now Conte?
Thuram was bitter because we sold him off, Canna was always feeling uncomfortable with that and made a promise to return.
All 3 have accepted a huge price cut, in order to facilitate the one year transition period, Mutu was young enough to offer his services even today. If we were keeping him, we wouldnt have to loan Bojinov and buy Iaquinta and we could spend more cash on wingbacks.
But the guidelines was Ital-Juve and hyped champions.
its inevitable, and hopefully sooner than later
Of course we did, but we are still among the highest 3 earners and we will be, despite the fact that we dont deserve it, performance wise, thats why Juve can still be milked and will be milked as long as we have that fading allure. in ITaly...
Thats was valid for the first year only, but when you willingly repeat the same mistake, it means that it wasnt a mistake, a part of it serves yours interests.
Conte is a yes man, proved that in his first day comments and praise to Marotta afterwards.
Benitez and Gasperini made their names by coaching and winning smth, Ferrara and Conte have won nothing, its a no brainer.
But at any case, since we lack exp, the exp high class director, should be our highest priority, someone wise enough to avoid the countless mistakes we did. But our board doesnt want optimal management aiming at competence, they have their own agenda, obviously.
San Siro holds 80-90k seats, ours used to have about 70k, the emirates you admire has 60k and is considered relatively small, the tiny stadium we have built is a low budget stadium, made for smaller clubs.
The less seats we have, the less vip seats we may offer, the tougher it will be to watch CL semis and champion deciders.
45k is the least we should do, 50-55k would be ok, 60 would be perfect, 40k is way too small to be JUVENTUS home.
The mistake to spend 70-80 of your budget to buy a new CM and SS each and every year for 5 consecutive year has no excuses, no matter how stupid one can be, its impossible to learn nothing from after sooo many failures.
There is a pattern here and i ve explained in great detail and i ve been repeating it for 6 years...
I knew that it will happen again and i ve been posting about this for 3 months before the transfer market opens and without anyone imagining that we would sign Vidal or Vucinic.
There is a certain reason this pattern repeats and improve to performance is the one...
I also respect stances and men who respect them and support them with educated views/argumentation. Of course we can agree on some things, as it impossible to agree and disagree on everything
But the lack of ambition to win is there and its constant, some hard facts, (esp the coach, avoid to invest on certain problematic position, nationalism problem, quick fixes, choice on directors and coaches etc) cannot be denied and the rest of the details, just fill the picture.
Cronios smiled 
Good post, Cronios, but I still disagree with you in many respects. We have diametrically opposed views on the Agnelli regime in general, but we do agree with some specific points. I have nothing more to add than what I've already written. With regards to the Agnelli regime and whether or not Juventus has a great future under them, only one of us can be right. Something that I think we both can agree on, though, as juventini who want the best for this club, is that we're both hoping it is me
If it's you, then I too will be singing your songs of doom and gloom one day.
Good post, Cronios, but I still disagree with you in many respects. We have diametrically opposed views on the Agnelli regime in general, but we do agree with some specific points. I have nothing more to add than what I've already written. With regards to the Agnelli regime and whether or not Juventus has a great future under them, only one of us can be right. Something that I think we both can agree on, though, as juventini who want the best for this club, is that we're both hoping it is me
If it's you, then I too will be singing your songs of doom and gloom one day.
Cronios smiled
Good post, Cronios, but I still disagree with you in many respects. We have diametrically opposed views on the Agnelli regime in general, but we do agree with some specific points. I have nothing more to add than what I've already written. With regards to the Agnelli regime and whether or not Juventus has a great future under them, only one of us can be right. Something that I think we both can agree on, though, as juventini who want the best for this club, is that we're both hoping it is me
If it's you, then I too will be singing your songs of doom and gloom one day.
Good post, Cronios, but I still disagree with you in many respects. We have diametrically opposed views on the Agnelli regime in general, but we do agree with some specific points. I have nothing more to add than what I've already written. With regards to the Agnelli regime and whether or not Juventus has a great future under them, only one of us can be right. Something that I think we both can agree on, though, as juventini who want the best for this club, is that we're both hoping it is me
If it's you, then I too will be singing your songs of doom and gloom one day.
