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acmilan

Plusvalenza Akbar
Nov 8, 2005
10,722
You lost your best pass-rusher and picked up a shitty injury prone guard in Cooper who has lost his starting job each of the last two seasons due to very poor play and was being moved to his third position on the o-line in Arizona. He's basically a non-player at this point.

The 2nd round draft pick is a late 2nd round pick. 61st. You better hope you guys draft well this year :D

The only plus of this is cap room and as you probably would have lost Jones for only a compensatory 3rd round pick after next year anyways. Cooper sucks. A lot. You have wiggle room though, for all your free agents needing new contracts after this season.

But boy oh boy, your D is going to suck rushing the passer this year without bringing in some major help :p and no, a washed up, old, oft-injured Chris Long doesn't count. :lol:
:lol:

Chandler Jones is a very inconsistent player, who never reached his potential with the Pats. Injury-prone, pads his stats in bunches vs weak teams and disappears vs good-not-great LTs. He is a good player, who can make plays but not a difference-maker and certainly not better than Ninkovich or Sheard, who he kept losing playing time to in the final 3rd of the season and the play-offs.

Considering how Vernon just blew up the DE market, Pats would have never kept Jones as he'd have asked for way more than he would ever be worth to the Pats. So, Pats traded a one year of Jones for a one year of Long, Cooper, a valuable 2nd round pick and cap space they would use in extending Hightower, Collins, Sheard, Butler.

Long may not be the player he was 3-4 years ago but has finally gotten healthy and who knows - even at 85% of his old self, he'd be close to what Jones offers. He is a DE who plays the run great and that's a rather underrated stat for the position as pwople tend to over-focus on the sacks. He is an excellent fit for Patriots' defensive schemes and that's what Pats do - acquire players on the cheap they can put in a better spot to show their best.

Cooper has had his growth stunted by injuries at Zona but he is still a player the Pats had as the 5th best prospect, overall, in the 2013 draft and with Scarnecchia coming back as OL coach, sky is the limit for him. Worst case scenario, they lose him after a year at a portion of Jones' cap hit.

That pick may be 61st but Pats don't have a 1st rounder this year, in a draft where a late 1st round pick (where Pats usually pick) has about the same value as a late 2nd because of the lack of quality in the draft beyond the top 15-20 players. A pick, Pats could well spend on a quality DL prospect, given this is the best/deepest position in the draft, to replace Hicks/Jones. A player they'd have for 4 years on a 2nd round rookie deal.

If you ever wondered how the Pats manage to stay at the top year-in, year-out in the cap/FA ere, look no further than deals like this one or when they traded away Mankins, 1.5 years ago - plan for tomorrow, don't get caught up in the yesterday.

P.S. btw, rumor has it, Packers were one of 5 teams that inquired about Jones. Other than Zona, the other 3 were Cleveland, Jags and Atlanta. So, count your blessings Ted T didn't get stupid 'cause the only way this trade would be good, to any extent, for the other team is if they end up extending jones on a 15 mil APY deal after 2016, which winning teams generally don't do outside franchise QBs.
 

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KB824

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2003
31,789
The 2nd round pick is easily the most valuable piece to this trade, and their history with 2nd round picks lately has been pretty good. The Patriots needed to increase their draft capital in the worst way, as they had virtually none going into this draft, even with the additional comp picks they received. They had virtually no movable draft picks coming in. The whole talk of saving money on Jones to sign their own free agents doesn't make much sense, since if their plan all along was to extend others on defense, then they wouldn't tender an offer to Jones after the season anyway. This trade was all about the draft pick, and getting Cooper back in the deal was the cost of doing business

As far as the player for player swap, Jones is far and away the better player, and Arizona gets another pass rusher to help with their terrific secondary. Arizona could be very scary if Palmer gets his head out of his ass in the playoffs, which he won't.


The problem with Cooper isn't just injuries. He simply isn't very good. Even when he came back, he couldn't get his job back from something called a Ted Larsen, who was one of the lowest rated guards this past season.

I know this because, naturally, if you suck, and you are on another team, then the 49ers would be interested in you
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
42,253
The 2nd round pick is easily the most valuable piece to this trade, and their history with 2nd round picks lately has been pretty good. The Patriots needed to increase their draft capital in the worst way, as they had virtually none going into this draft, even with the additional comp picks they received. They had virtually no movable draft picks coming in. The whole talk of saving money on Jones to sign their own free agents doesn't make much sense, since if their plan all along was to extend others on defense, then they wouldn't tender an offer to Jones after the season anyway. This trade was all about the draft pick, and getting Cooper back in the deal was the cost of doing business

As far as the player for player swap, Jones is far and away the better player, and Arizona gets another pass rusher to help with their terrific secondary. Arizona could be very scary if Palmer gets his head out of his ass in the playoffs, which he won't.


The problem with Cooper isn't just injuries. He simply isn't very good. Even when he came back, he couldn't get his job back from something called a Ted Larsen, who was one of the lowest rated guards this past season.

I know this because, naturally, if you suck, and you are on another team, then the 49ers would be interested in you
:agree:

I meant the trade was to open up cap space while getting a higher draft pick, and a shitty player (Cooper) in return... Instead of only receiving a compensatory end of 3rd round pick.

If I'm being entirely honest, it was a good trade for both teams. Arizona needed an every down lineman capable of getting to the QB, and they got that in Jones... Probably have the ability to sign him for longer if they want considering they have quite a good cap situation and not too many upcoming big money free agents. He's a borderline elite pass rusher and only 26.

And they didn't give up much. The 61st pick is something, but that's not often a big-time first year contributor and from what's being said, the Cards want to win now, maximizing the little time they have left with Palmer and Fitz... It looks like they're going to try to follow the Broncos model to some extent.

The Pats got much more than they would have, had they let him walk in free agency, although I really don't see Cooper turning it around. O-line is a position that needs intelligence, and Cooper, though an athletic freak, is really not a very smart player. Hence the reason he has become a huge bust. However, he's not really a big part of that deal, it's the moving an end-of-third round pick to 61st as compensation for losing a player where they have quite a bit of depth. Sheard looks really good although we will see how he responds to being more of an every-down player as opposed to just a 3rd down player. I'd assume he'll do well.

Anyways. It's a win for both teams in my books. Although surprising from the Pats, as Brady turns 39 this year, and I'd have thought they'd somewhat stack the deck to win right now, this year, even if it meant losing some players for compensatory picks afterwards.
 

KB824

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2003
31,789
:agree:

I meant the trade was to open up cap space while getting a higher draft pick, and a shitty player (Cooper) in return... Instead of only receiving a compensatory end of 3rd round pick.

If I'm being entirely honest, it was a good trade for both teams. Arizona needed an every down lineman capable of getting to the QB, and they got that in Jones... Probably have the ability to sign him for longer if they want considering they have quite a good cap situation and not too many upcoming big money free agents. He's a borderline elite pass rusher and only 26.

And they didn't give up much. The 61st pick is something, but that's not often a big-time first year contributor and from what's being said, the Cards want to win now, maximizing the little time they have left with Palmer and Fitz... It looks like they're going to try to follow the Broncos model to some extent.

The Pats got much more than they would have, had they let him walk in free agency, although I really don't see Cooper turning it around. O-line is a position that needs intelligence, and Cooper, though an athletic freak, is really not a very smart player. Hence the reason he has become a huge bust. However, he's not really a big part of that deal, it's the moving an end-of-third round pick to 61st as compensation for losing a player where they have quite a bit of depth. Sheard looks really good although we will see how he responds to being more of an every-down player as opposed to just a 3rd down player. I'd assume he'll do well.

Anyways. It's a win for both teams in my books. Although surprising from the Pats, as Brady turns 39 this year, and I'd have thought they'd somewhat stack the deck to win right now, this year, even if it meant losing some players for compensatory picks afterwards.
When I had mentioned the cap savings theory, it wasn't with you in mind. All the pundits around here in New England are stating that this was designed to clear space for future signings, and I'm saying to myself "If they never intended to re-sign him, then letting him be a free agent next year makes no difference".
 

acmilan

Plusvalenza Akbar
Nov 8, 2005
10,722
The 2nd round pick is easily the most valuable piece to this trade, and their history with 2nd round picks lately has been pretty good. The Patriots needed to increase their draft capital in the worst way, as they had virtually none going into this draft, even with the additional comp picks they received. They had virtually no movable draft picks coming in. The whole talk of saving money on Jones to sign their own free agents doesn't make much sense, since if their plan all along was to extend others on defense, then they wouldn't tender an offer to Jones after the season anyway. This trade was all about the draft pick, and getting Cooper back in the deal was the cost of doing business

As far as the player for player swap, Jones is far and away the better player, and Arizona gets another pass rusher to help with their terrific secondary. Arizona could be very scary if Palmer gets his head out of his ass in the playoffs, which he won't.


The problem with Cooper isn't just injuries. He simply isn't very good. Even when he came back, he couldn't get his job back from something called a Ted Larsen, who was one of the lowest rated guards this past season.

I know this because, naturally, if you suck, and you are on another team, then the 49ers would be interested in you
Saved cap space from one season rolls over onto the next. Pats would have had to spend 7.8 mil on Jones in 2016. Letting him go now, saves 5.5 mil, which is not lost but rolls over for next year even if they don't extend those other players now, but wait till next off-season. So, yes, it does make a difference.

Jon Cooper has had a string of misfortune in the NFL so far - broke his ankle in his rookie season, missing training camp and the entire '13 season. That basically stunted his development. Then about a year or so ago, he lost his mother. In the meantime, he was also out with turf-toe.
On top of all that, iirc, The Cards don't have a designated OL coach - think their OC is kind of pulling double-duty as OL-coach too.

Rumors in NE have it that it Scarnecchia who explicitly asked for Cooper and had a really high grade on him in 2013 draft. He fits Dante's OL scheme. Question would be can he overcome all the other stuff. If he shows his potential this year, there is a much better chance they'd be able to keep him beyond 2016, unlike CJ who was gone anyway.

All in all, a "really low risk, extremely high reward" move by the Pats. And that's just the gravy added to the pick and the cap-room they saved.

- - - Updated - - -

:agree:

I meant the trade was to open up cap space while getting a higher draft pick, and a shitty player (Cooper) in return... Instead of only receiving a compensatory end of 3rd round pick.

If I'm being entirely honest, it was a good trade for both teams. Arizona needed an every down lineman capable of getting to the QB, and they got that in Jones... Probably have the ability to sign him for longer if they want considering they have quite a good cap situation and not too many upcoming big money free agents. He's a borderline elite pass rusher and only 26.

And they didn't give up much. The 61st pick is something, but that's not often a big-time first year contributor and from what's being said, the Cards want to win now, maximizing the little time they have left with Palmer and Fitz... It looks like they're going to try to follow the Broncos model to some extent.

The Pats got much more than they would have, had they let him walk in free agency, although I really don't see Cooper turning it around. O-line is a position that needs intelligence, and Cooper, though an athletic freak, is really not a very smart player. Hence the reason he has become a huge bust. However, he's not really a big part of that deal, it's the moving an end-of-third round pick to 61st as compensation for losing a player where they have quite a bit of depth. Sheard looks really good although we will see how he responds to being more of an every-down player as opposed to just a 3rd down player. I'd assume he'll do well.

Anyways. It's a win for both teams in my books. Although surprising from the Pats, as Brady turns 39 this year, and I'd have thought they'd somewhat stack the deck to win right now, this year, even if it meant losing some players for compensatory picks afterwards.
Indeed - it's a trade that can work out for both teams. Maybe Jones would do better in his role with the Cards. He better, or they have rented him for a year at the price of a 2nd round pick. Even if they do keep him beyond 2016, chances are it will be at a rather high cost ... guess, they believe they can afford that. All I can tell you is Pats never planned to keep him.

Jones has been consistently mentioned as a "must-move" player by Pats draft pundits all over the place, which is why I am so happy they got what they got for him.
Trust me, Chan Jones is not seen as a diff-maker by Pats fans and it seems the coaching staff too. To see that, you'd have to look into the details of his performances thruout the years. His raw stats don't tell the whole story. IIRC, for what it may be worth, one of those ranking websites (profootball talk or whatever) ranked him as the 24th, 45th, 25th and 40th best DE in his 4 years with the Pats. No surprises there for me, tbh.
Good player, who simply never achieved his full potential.

That's why Pats had no choice but move him now. His workload is quite replaceable, while they get a 2016 2nd round pick as opposed to a 3rd round compensatory in 2018. Two years of not having a potentially good player contributing is no small thing, especially when your all-time QB is 38-39 yo.
And don't get me started on the cap room they saved :p

- - - Updated - - -

:nico::nico::nico: Marty Bennett :nico::nico::nico:

- - - Updated - - -

When all is said and done, for one year of Chandler Jones and his cap hit, Pats acquired Jon Cooper, Chris Long, Martellus Bennett and a 2nd round pick.

Fuck Yeah :D
 

Rollie

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2008
5,143
Yeah, well the 9ers have re-signed Ian Williams, Shaun Draughn, Ray Ray, Phil Dawson, and signed Thad Lewis.

So suck on that!

Top 5 pick in 2017, here we come! :p
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
42,253
Saved cap space from one season rolls over onto the next. Pats would have had to spend 7.8 mil on Jones in 2016. Letting him go now, saves 5.5 mil, which is not lost but rolls over for next year even if they don't extend those other players now, but wait till next off-season. So, yes, it does make a difference.

Jon Cooper has had a string of misfortune in the NFL so far - broke his ankle in his rookie season, missing training camp and the entire '13 season. That basically stunted his development. Then about a year or so ago, he lost his mother. In the meantime, he was also out with turf-toe.
On top of all that, iirc, The Cards don't have a designated OL coach - think their OC is kind of pulling double-duty as OL-coach too.

Rumors in NE have it that it Scarnecchia who explicitly asked for Cooper and had a really high grade on him in 2013 draft. He fits Dante's OL scheme. Question would be can he overcome all the other stuff. If he shows his potential this year, there is a much better chance they'd be able to keep him beyond 2016, unlike CJ who was gone anyway.

All in all, a "really low risk, extremely high reward" move by the Pats. And that's just the gravy added to the pick and the cap-room they saved.

- - - Updated - - -



Indeed - it's a trade that can work out for both teams. Maybe Jones would do better in his role with the Cards. He better, or they have rented him for a year at the price of a 2nd round pick. Even if they do keep him beyond 2016, chances are it will be at a rather high cost ... guess, they believe they can afford that. All I can tell you is Pats never planned to keep him.

Jones has been consistently mentioned as a "must-move" player by Pats draft pundits all over the place, which is why I am so happy they got what they got for him.
Trust me, Chan Jones is not seen as a diff-maker by Pats fans and it seems the coaching staff too. To see that, you'd have to look into the details of his performances thruout the years. His raw stats don't tell the whole story. IIRC, for what it may be worth, one of those ranking websites (profootball talk or whatever) ranked him as the 24th, 45th, 25th and 40th best DE in his 4 years with the Pats. No surprises there for me, tbh.
Good player, who simply never achieved his full potential.

That's why Pats had no choice but move him now. His workload is quite replaceable, while they get a 2016 2nd round pick as opposed to a 3rd round compensatory in 2018. Two years of not having a potentially good player contributing is no small thing, especially when your all-time QB is 38-39 yo.
And don't get me started on the cap room they saved :p

- - - Updated - - -

:nico::nico::nico: Marty Bennett :nico::nico::nico:

- - - Updated - - -

When all is said and done, for one year of Chandler Jones and his cap hit, Pats acquired Jon Cooper, Chris Long, Martellus Bennett and a 2nd round pick.

Fuck Yeah :D
What? Bennett wasn't a part of the Chandler Jones trade. :lol:

The cap space helped get him, but you also sent a 4th round pick for him. Not to mention Bennett started to lose his role to Zach Miller before his rib injury. :D
 

acmilan

Plusvalenza Akbar
Nov 8, 2005
10,722
What? Bennett wasn't a part of the Chandler Jones trade. :lol:

The cap space helped get him, but you also sent a 4th round pick for him. Not to mention Bennett started to lose his role to Zach Miller before his rib injury. :D
Pats also get a 6th rounder in return for Bennett; effectively, their 4th rounder dropped 77 spots.

Suck on that tasty lemon, bitch :D

P.S. And they also signed Sheamus Mac thru that Bears pipeline :klin:
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
42,253
stop being a douchey c*nt and tell Teddy T to wake up and make some moves that would mask A-Rod's mediocrity, should Jordy Nelson get injured again. :D
Da draft baby. :D

I wish Jake Butt out of Michigan declared this year. He'd probably go late first round, TE and all that, but he's going to be incredible. Way higher ceiling than Hunter Henry...

I could see the Pack going for Hunter Henry if he's still available (50/50 on that, I think he's early 2nd round material, but depends on what teams need a tight end), and he'd be a huge improvement at the position for us. Probably won't see a wide receiver selected as we have a pretty deep WR corps if Jordy Nelson stays healthy. Ty Montgomery and Davante Adams should improve hopefully too.

We need some help on the D-line, especially with BJ gone. If we don't go for Hunter Henry first round... maybe Billings out of Baylor and then go for a tight end later in the draft. Lots of decent but not great ones available.

ILB is another big need as well. Su'a Cravens maybe?
 

acmilan

Plusvalenza Akbar
Nov 8, 2005
10,722
Da draft baby. :D

I wish Jake Butt out of Michigan declared this year. He'd probably go late first round, TE and all that, but he's going to be incredible. Way higher ceiling than Hunter Henry...

I could see the Pack going for Hunter Henry if he's still available (50/50 on that, I think he's early 2nd round material, but depends on what teams need a tight end), and he'd be a huge improvement at the position for us. Probably won't see a wide receiver selected as we have a pretty deep WR corps if Jordy Nelson stays healthy. Ty Montgomery and Davante Adams should improve hopefully too.

We need some help on the D-line, especially with BJ gone. If we don't go for Hunter Henry first round... maybe Billings out of Baylor and then go for a tight end later in the draft. Lots of decent but not great ones available.

ILB is another big need as well. Su'a Cravens maybe?
Can't rely on the draft alone, gotta grease some wheels in FA too :D

Yep, not a good year for drafting a TE. Henry is the best of the bunch, it seems, but would be a reach in the 1st imo, at least in your average draft class. This year, who knows - may well go in the first for lack of alternatives all around. From the TEs, I like Higbee and Vanette the most in the 2-3 round range. Quite possibly even better value than Henry in the 1st.

Not too excited about this draft class, tbh. I can see quite a few teams reaching in the first round for relatively average talent that would normally be seen go in the 2nd and even 3rd round; if nothing else, because they have to make that pick.

If BB can get out of the 2nd and 3rd rounds with something like S Karl Joseph, OT Taylor Decker, RB CJ Procise and DL Jon Bullard in his pocket, I'd be the first to admit that the Pats somehow cheated again :D
 

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