If you only knew how many times i ve faced and intercepted all those arguments
So one more time wouldnt hurt me, sometimes i do amaze my self, of where i am having all this power to repeat them one more time...
Me and other members who had the very same conversation in the past find all this very boring, but i do believe that we have a duty to repeat such things for the newest members here. i ve noticed that a new batch ahs arisen and i feel obligated to ask some of their question.
I hope you are not just a double account and wasting my breath for nothing.
I apologize for some of the arguments i might jump of, but try to understand that it is not easy for me to repeat this, like a broken record as Jack says...
And most important, i have nothing personal against you, if i had, i wouldnt waste my time trying to make sense with and right a novel for you. I respect everybody's opinion and right to express and debate it!
Yes, the problems are known but their impact was unknown then. Grygera had a good Euro performance and someone of his standard should not be putting the performances we observe now. The same goes with Tiago. First season syndromes abound around the world so to dismiss them after the first season isn't clever.
The problem is that some problems are known for waaay tooo much time
and no one seems to intend of doing anything to fix them...
There are problems and problems, priorities and priorities, but some of them are more important than others.
I am convinced that this management is incompetent, i do not ask them to be optimal.
I wished that my club had a competitive management as before, as i ve always considered one of the most important factors of our success.
But eventually, i ve seen with whom we are dealing with here and only ask for some very simple and realistic acts/targets/actions/tasks/goals.
Our announced target and more or less the dream of every Juventino, is to see this broken team, competitive again!
To achieve that, we must not only keep up with the pace of the better teams out there, but we must make some quality leaps to reach them. Such a thing cannot happen within a season time,
some of us do\did not understand it, but i do.
Therefore i only ask to see some simple but decisive steps forward
(and i do not care for momentary gains), who will allow us,
in some time in the future to become competitive again.
When we were relegated, we still had Buffon, DP, Treze, Neddy, Camo, Chiellini, Zanetti and a few squad members left. We also had the contracts of some very promising youngsters who were almost reached the call of age.
This is what this board has inherited, along with the prestige and fanbase the Juve name brings. I was expecting them to build form there.
The core of the team we already had, gave us some very strong group of players to start with, from the very beginning, we knew that they would guarantee some results, but they were not enough for titles, unless we paired them with some more champions as before.
So, we should start adding some champions to this team, slowly but surely,
in an attempt to use the new champions and old ones to make a competitive team right away.
Keep it as close to the higher places and higher income, as possible
and then, eventually, start replacing our champions as they retire.
With a complete new team, we should then start adding some luxury subs to fine tune every line and reach the level we used to have.
For various reasons i have extensively presented in previous posts, i ve always believed the new management started with the left foot from day one. The way they have released some squad players for nothing, (like Kovac and Tudor) the way they have sold off some players they could keep (like Mutu and Balza)
These mistakes determined some of our future transfer policy and paved the way for future mistakes this transfer policy was bound to make.
I was one of the first members here in the forum to indicate that our board is incompetent and our hopes are already compromised.
And then, we ve reached the Iaquinta, Almiron, Tiago and Andrade disaster.
This is when the last hopes i had for their work had died. I had no doubts left in my mind of their faulty actions.
When every body else just sits back and hopes for the best, i think it through and criticize. There lies the difference in my approach to the boards actions and the bulk of the forum's dreamers who have blind faith on the them and still hope that those guys actually have a plan there
and they all hope they better get it right.
I am sorry, i am not like that, i cannot deny the truth, i cannot deny facts, i cannot deny what my eyes see and my ears hear.
I cannot close my eyes and ears and just hope for the best.
Therefore i ve started to criticize our boards actions.
Therefore i ve extensively expressed my opinion, basing on some practical observations, we were all here able to make, after watching our team week in week out for decades.
We have all agreed that we had some very evident strengths and weakness. Our strengths lied on the champions we have kept and the weakness on the players we have forced to sell. Thuram, Canna, Zambro, Emerson and Vieira were the players we lost and never recovered.
They are the players we need to replace if we wont to form a new competitive group again. They are the missing parts of the puzzle who would form a new champion, from the pieces of the team we still had.
With those players we could turn our team into a champion team once again.
The team we already had when we came back from serie b, was not a serie b team. We only participated there as a result to calciopoli, not because of the results on the field, the crippled team we had would never found its natural place in serie B and history proved withthe way we got up.
The team we had when we got back to serie A, was not a newly promoted serie B team. It was the half team of the earliest serie A champions.
Those lost players were never replaced, we could never replace them so easily, at least with other champions. So we should replace them with younger but very promising players, who able able to form one day the competitive team we were aim for!
Unfortunately, every action this board has made has shown, that there was never a plan of replacing them with champions or youngsters of similar potential. IMO our true board/owners has decided that they do not wish to invest on juve anymore and they do prefer to farm anything they can form the fanbase and prestige the previous generations have created.
They have placed those muppets there, only to be used us scapegoats when the fans had enough.
And if you take a look at their wok form this perspective. Our transfer strategy will finally start making some sense. The board is not aiming of making this team competitive as before, but they want to extend the effects of the previous managements as long as they can and gain the maximum profit with the minimum investment.
But to gain that profit, they should start gaining some profit.
Therefore they have set as priority to have a new stadium built form a sponsor, in order to maximize their profit and the clubs profit, putting as in debt for decades only for them to create better conditions of farming.
That was the priority, who opposes the priority of the club of rebuilding a team right the darkest moment of her history.
They have want a better stadium because they want to attract more spectators,
only because of that, they dont care if Juve will become competitive or not.
But they do care the demanding Juve fans will have a reason to keep supporting the once champion favorite club. Therefore they have promised us the five year plan, in order to stall time and try to trick us into submission.
This summer, we will see if this 5 year plan was ever existed or not.
I believe that we have already seen enough to know that there never was a plan.
We dont have to see if a skyscraper will be built and resist a great earthquake, within 5 years. If we have already seen that there is no strong basis built after 3 years and the bulk of the budget has already spent...
To ensure their success of luring the Juve fans into the new stadium. Our board has decided that our priority is to gather some players who would create some spectacle in order to appease the fans and keep them coming after one more wasted season. (that would explain why we spend the bulk of our transfer market every year on forwards, Iaquinta, Amauri, Cassano, despite already having two champions and two promising youngsters there)
Therefore, the limited money our clubs makes on sales and other income are mostly used on forwards who will consistently deliver the necessary spectacle and thus we will avoid of using huge amounts of cash on upgrading our defense. Canna, Zambro and Thuram used to be the best defense in europe. With the help of Emerson and Vieira they used to be the reason we were so solid
and we were rarely ever slipping away points and championships.
Our board CLEARLY through Gigli's lips sad that, the new Juve's priorities will not be the results, but the spectacle!!
This is were we ve dropped efficiency for nothing. This is our current policy and this were it has lead us. Juve has been the icon of the opposite policy for years,
we have proved what it takes to be a champion. not the depth Inter had, not the attacking options Milan had, but the solidarity of our defense.
And we have dropped all this for their profit. It is clear that with them in our helm, we will never get the chance to become what we were from funding, rather than our strength. Therefore it is essential to make the maximum advantage of the very limited sums we have available. We should take advantage of every penny we have to strengthen our team, where it really matters.
I believe that CR is nothing but a smiling pawn, who was brought only when a real Juventino refused to do such a thing against his beloved club.
And the incompetent Secco is also a pawn, who will blindly perform their orders without question and this is the only reason we are not looking for a better man for the job. An experienced manager would provide us with the best material, working for the team's interest, because this is how he is judged. No one would afford to be crucified like Secco, only to serve their interests.
So i believe that Secco is there for a reason and CR is also there for a reason, but this reason does not serves Juve's interests.
I understand that, but i what i am expecting form them is to be as efficient as possible and try to keep a balance of benefiting both our clubs and our boards wills.
But unfortunately esp Secco, is far away form that. He is not only making the wrong moves but he also adds he is very own catastrophic touch on them, wasting money by overpaying for players we dont really need.
He was ordered to bring some cheap successors to Emerson and Vieira, a new impressive forward and just one expensive CB to partner Legro as a quick fix to the Canna-Thuram partership.
That would benefit our team a great deal and he only had just one chance to make it happen. He somehow managed to spend 20+ mil for a crippled player (Andrade) and a youngster we already owned (Criscito) when he took over Moggi's chair.
Since then no other major sums have ever spend for the crucial for efficiency but non essential for spectacle D-line.
When Andrade failed and Criscito was loaned back out, we were forced to convert Chiellini into a CB and create a new whole in our left flank. In the mean time with the over failing Zebina, a new whole has also created in our right flank too. But the available limited budget for our defense was already spent.
Thats why Secco didnt want to spent a couple more millions to sign Mellberg when we needed him the most, last year. And only acquired him and Grygera as free agents. He is probably ordered not to spend any more money for the d-line and he screwed up a great deal.
Therefore i do insist even from the Boumsong era, that our defense was never actually fixed and each and every move we made so far,
was just a quick fix, with very limited potential and effects.
It still remains my priority on our to do list and this weakness have been reflected on the field every week, for the past 3 seasons.
That weakness was one of the major reasons, i knew that we dont have any chances for any titles this year.
Our boards neglet fixing that problem for 3 consecutive years, despite this has always been our greatest weakness, they let this go on purpose, dont yoiu just wonder why? They can be o blind...
Various excuses has been made up until now, but none has resisted time and non will if we dont make any major investments on our defense this year.
So far from our board and coaches words, it seem that we are rather more interested on adding a few more flips and tricks with some fancy forwards like Cassano and Milito, rather than some solid/reliable defenders.
Because the fans wont pay tickets to see defenders, they would rather see a new forward scoring some goals, it doesnt matter if we keep conceding 3, as we
do lately. The spectacle is there and since we dont want to afford enough to win titles, thats all it matters for now.
Grygera was an Ajax reject and he made it clear right form the first month he got here, that he is not capable of being anything more that the sub we bought him for.
Since we have seen for years now that Zebina is soooo injury prone, we should rather use him as a reserve and sign a new starter. Well Grygera has never shown any promise of becoming one. Secco had the option to sell Zebina at an EPL club but he failed to do so. He actually has never accomplished to make a sale with some decent profit for us. He is unable to do that. But he had the option to do that. The effects of that choice are also irreversable.
Because after spending one more year on our bench, the value of Zebina has completely diminished and we will never be able to make a profit of him now.
But the effects of this choice did affected us, is still affecting and will affect us in the future!
You can just forget these mistakes and consider they never happened or it was a last year's mistakes, because this mistake affects us even today, someone is still hold responsible for this. I will not blame Grygera for his lame performances, because i ve always knew he was not able to provide more than that. I will not blame CR for our weak defense, because he his hands forced to place some weak players. To blame one of those two for Secco's choices, is in my eyes hypocrisy!
Some goes for Tiago, IMO he never had the potential to become a WC player
and even worse, he never had the potential to cover up for the wholes in our defense as a DM, because he is not physically equipped for that job, esp after he spent a whole season not playing football on the bench.
IMO we should have brought Marchisio as a back up and together with the starter Zanetti and the subber Nocerino we only had to worry for one quality CDM. CR insisted form the beginning for Sissoko and he was proved out right.
With the combined fees we paid for Almiron and Tiago, we could have good someone better than them and avoid all the trouble of paying their salaries even today, with rather playing a quality starter from the beginning, thus avoiding the troubles we had at the first half of our previous season.
Problems that forced our hand to further invest on Sissoko and lucky us no body else got him and we had the chance to get him even cheaper.
However we made a back-step there, paying 3 times for the same player. A grave mistake was made and we should avoid of making a new one in the future, we should take the maximum advantage of the situation. Trying to minimize damage, we have to sell Tiago and Almiron for sums near the ones we overpaid to get them.
But they have been proved cunning enough to avoid their sale and they even managed to lock the ones who tried to sell them in the toilet. That happened this year and it was very embarashing. Secco didnt only fail to acquire the right material, He also overpaid them, promised them more money than they should get, thus making it hard for another club to repeat that mistake and buy them and now also failed to replace them or at least make a maximum profit of them.
Regardless of their performance, Secco's plan this year was to sell them and he failed, miserable.
You cant call this season transfer season successful, that fact alone is enough to prevent you of saying that!
Andrade had injury problems but these things could clear up anytime. Sometimes it is the Michael Owen case in which a player never recovers but the injury-plagued Marchionni is playing so often now that you wish he was injured. If Ledley King, another injury plagued player, is a starter, I do not see why Andrade should be a back-up. It is a gamble that we lost unfortunately.
Andrade had injury problems last year too, actually he missed the entire season because of that. Rumors that he is not "so healthy" came along with him since day one, he proved those rumors true right away. And even if he would return this season, he would nt be fit enough to start and he would probably get injured some time again later on. How were you expecting him to be our starter is beyond me. IMO he should be replaced with a quality starter, because we already had him Knezevic and Legro as depth. We know that Legro is limited and cant cope without Chiellini's presence. However since our board has decided that enough cash ha already been spent on the D-line. Secco's mistakes has once again affected our transfer plans this year. With zero cash available and the need for defenders stronger than any other time we ve opted for the free Mellberg.
Which clearly indicates that we are looking for quick fixes and nothing more.
Mellberg doesnt have the quality to be the reliable high quality defender we need now, or the potential to grow into one in the a future competitive Juve. He was brought just to stall some more time, just to fill in some gaps. Filling that gap was our priority, but have preferred to invest on Treze's successor and loan out Palla instead, despite the fact that we also already paid Iaquinta for depth, just the previous year! Why? But for the spectacle of course. Amauri's goals did not saved our weak defense of conceding even more though...
The choice of our board and its effects are visible these days, do you consider it a success? Did it help us to come closer to any titles? Did it helped us with our eminent DP replacing issue?? We had no tactical advantage and we have disabled a strategical one.
We have bought the "champion" Iaquinta, to avoid spending more money when Treze retires, then why did we got Amauri??
Or is it that we have bought Iaquinta to avoid paying for DP's successor? Then why are we buying Cassano now????? And where does their supposed successors we already owned fit in all that?? (Giovinco+Palla)
Why are we making some many sidesteps and keep investing the very limited sums we have for the positions we dont face any problems???
-For the spectacle of course
and our will to appease the fool fans who run behind it
and ultimately for the profit they will bring!
Nobody knows that Marchionni will play so badly and you certainly cannot say the management erred in not releasing him because he only started playing more this season.
Camo, unfortunately has also become an injury prone player, these are not news however.
He have seen this happening last year. We could react in our previous x-mas transfer market, just like we could with the fullbacks and CBs issues. But we didnt! Why? Because we already had two expensive champions and we couldnt afford for more.
Thats what our board has thought. But why can we afford for 4 expensive strikers instead?? Why can we afford for an extra DM?? (Poulsen)
When we were buying Poulsen i was pointing out the need for a creative midfielder with the abilities of Alonso, a reliable defender and some wingers (if the need for the creative winger isnt fixed).
These were our priorities,why can every body else can see them, even other teams, fans, players and coaches and our board cant??
But we have chose to buy an extra forward and an extra DM, just like Real Madrid were doing when they wanted to avoid buying defenders, in order to offer more spectacle!:melayyanandmessi:
Amauri is a priority because Del Piero is already old and I am sure you are worried about who will replace our legends. Well Amauri is one of them. Trezeguet getting injured is not lucky because each of our first-team players and substitutes is out for at least 1 month per season. If Amauri had gone to Milan, then who do you think we can get for 22.5m in the next transfer window? If Cassano comes, then basically our attack will not need strengthening for the next 5 years. As for Palladino and Giovinco, their performances suggest that we will lose or draw the game if Del Piero is not around.
Amauri was never a priority, we had two world class forwards, the champion Iaquinta and the promising Giovinco, Palla and Lanza. We could have singed any time free players like Mellberg for depth and bring back someone like Zala.
The Milan excuse is lame, we cant stop Milan of buying forwards. There are hundreds of players like Amauri out there, who can buy of they are really determined and new talents appear every year. We cannot buy them all. We have are own needs and our own priorities. When Treze, DP and Iaquinta retire and Giovinco, Lanza, Palla will be proved bad players. Then we ought ot make a move for a new forward. Our priorities until there was try and fix our ACTUAL problems we face now and until then.
This is not thinking ahead, when you think ahead, you also consider the present.
And the future effects on every line our current choices will make in the future.
Each and every year we are paying for DP's Treze's successors even before they retire, this is absurd when we dont have starters right now!!!
We are playing with Molinaro, Grygera and Marchionni as starters for two years and as things are shaping, we are also bound to use them as starters for one more year and DP and Treze will still be available until then.
Thas really absurd and if anything, clearly indicates lack of vision and priorities!!
Why do you think Poulsen is inferior to Alonso? I say they are equally competent at their job.
You cannot blame Poulsen's transfer for the lack of upgrade in the wings because your choice is Alonso who is a CM who cost twice as much. He can certainly improve our long range passing but he is simply too expensive and Marchisio's emergence means we do not need Alonso. An additional factor is Liverpool's inability to get Barry. As much as you want him, do you think Benitez will leave himself without a good replacement?
Poulsen IS inferior to Alonso, far more inferior than him and its not only their transfer value that demonstrates that. Bu tht e most important thting is what we need. Since we have finally found the destructive guy in the center of our midfield, all we need now is his partner. We have old Zanetti a used to be very reliable player, which has now found his role as the DM sub. And for Sissoko's partner we need someone able to provide smth Sissoko cant. Someone who is expert on providing that. Alonso is a dedicated player for this job, tiago also is a dedicated player for this job, Marchisio might become a dedicated player for this job.
Poulsen IS NOT a dedicated player for this job!! And since we already had Tiago for this job, (a failing Tiago, but someone with the potential to do it and also the very promising Marchisio).
Why would we waste all that money to buy a player who would give as no tactical and no long term/ strategical benefits??
Alonso would give us some tactical advantage providing kills, no one else can. But Poulsen cant add nothing more than the defensive work of Zanetti, the promise of Marchisio and the creative work of Tiago couldnt!! Poulsen was a total waste of money. His adds no more tactidal solutions and he is not a quality upgrade either!
We made this transfer only for the shake of it and because deep inside us, we (CR) new that this defense is bound to fail us.
CR opted for a cheap Alonso who can defend a bit better, in order to support this d-line.
This transfer also indicates that we have no will to create a future competitive team and would rather prefer on spending lesser sums for quick fixes.
The presence of Poulsen now, means that we dont plan to acquire a better and more expensive central midfielder in the near future.
Our failure on signing Alonso became permanent. Our failure of using either of Tiago or Almiron as back ups at least, in order to minimize the damage made with their acquisition has become permanent!
Mellberg, Molinaro, Tiago/Almiron, Grygera and Poulsen clearly indicates the quality and the potential, our board is planning to acquire and to use as the successor of Thuram, Canna, Vieira, Zambro and Emerson.
This is their 5 year plan. They plan to use them and similarly valuable players as the core of our team. Farm as much as they can from the players Moggi left and add a few fancy forwards to keep the spectacle and interest of the fans up, with the minimal of investing. I expect even less investment from now on and as we have seen this season, they will never invest as much as they did, when Secco wasted all that cash in our first season in Serie A.
Our team will be keep decaying and when the remainder of our champions will be sold (Treze,Buffon) or retired (Neddy, DP) then the few fancy (dribble first and dont mind scoring) forwards (Amauri, Cassano) and a couple of DMs, wont be suffice to keep as were we are now, esp if they are lead with pawns like CR...
Your view of rebuilding the squad is to see all the holes, find the most important ones, spend all the funds and plug them immediately. The management's one is to find the present holes and future ones, weigh their importance and price, and plug those that are most economically efficient. The most important one may only be partially plugged now but it will be addressed in the future. Will one world-class replacement be able to propel us from the current second spot to first? I doubt so. In this age, with every top team challenging for multiple titles, a strong substitutes bench is needed. If we are to reach this level, when we consider both strategies, I think yours will take much more money and time.
My view on rebuilding our team within 5 years was simple.
Build it on the 5-7 starters we had (Buffon, Chiellini, Zanetti, Needy, Camo, DP and Treze) and start adding players (2/season) in the places we have no decent options, while we keep using the players we own (Zala, Nocerino, Giovinco, Tudor, Legro, Kovac, Palla, Lanza, Marchisio, De Ceglie etc ) for depth
(avoiding to replace the most promising Giovinco, Marchisio, DC right away) and with the additions of 1-2 more free players/season, if necessary. And spend the available cash we have have(around 45/season) for acquiring two starters/season.
Since we already had 5-7 champions as starters, within two years time, 2+2 starters, would result into a 5-7+4=9-11 quality starters.
Meaning that we should have a competitive team at every line by now.
And in the next two years we should add two more starters and replace 2 of our aging champions (DP and Neddy) and finally make some fine additions replacements (Treze or Camo if necessary) in the last.
So within 5 years time we should have a full competitive squad, full of Sissokos and Amauris.
A balanced team with good starters, great collective amount of quality at every line and us benefiting from this amount of quantity at optimal percentages, as before!
With some decent alternatives/subs too (free players like mellberg, grygera, or injury prone but with great potential like Zebina and Camo)
This could all easily happen with the players and the amounts we owned/spend.
However we have have wasted those sums,on players like Andrade, Iaquinta, Tiago and Almiron and we are never going to get little to any penny back for them. we have a very unbalanced team,
with starters like Molinaro and subs like Iaquinta, who is a far better player than him.
We ve respected no plans or priorities. We gain no tactical gains form the choices Secco made, if ti wasnt for our champions we wouldnt be here.
This season was a wasted season from all perspectives. We didnt didnt gain any titles and we didnt strengthen our team, on midfield or defense. Our investment on the offense will not please or needs for investing there one more time, despite they came when we had any kind of problems there, we had the two first scores and some very promising material there coming.
A completely wasted year, to both development and successes.
The reasons this year was wasted because of success couldnt be avoided,
but we have chose to sacrifice our development for them. I cant see how can anyone claim that the one who has affected our only chance of achieving anything was an "improvement" or even anything near "successful"...
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good post, agree with a lot of the things you said mate...but dogs are not cute
