A wonderful article on "Il Foglio": gotta read it! (2 Viewers)

[Jun-hide]

omoitta ne

Dou-ita-shima-shite .
Pracitising my English writing since I have a lot of free-time these days..
Anyway, I have changed my view that we must fight for our Serie A status on the ground of justice, hearing Isha's argument (Sorry Vinman, it took me a long time. )

Anyway, I am off now.

Ja-ne.

 

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[GordoDeCentral]

boku mo nihongo o renshuu shitai

 

[isha00]

English or I'll have to warn you.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

my bad, havent spoken japanese in a while so i got a little excited

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Damnit!

I thought the "Foglio" was an Italian porn star.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

English or I'll have to warn you.

 

[iliakis]

You know...?This cituation is driving me up the wall whenever I got the chance of reading such atricles.The "proofs" with which Juve got punished are leastways inadmissibly.I have no F*cking words to explain the stupidity of this,so called,justice. Thx for the article and the translation too ofcource. :thumbs:

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

 

[isha00]

Isha

I must admit you are putting some very constructive and persuasive arguement, and I rest my case .

BIG CUT :wink:

This takes a lot from the players, management, and from the fans.
One has to get away from the mind-set that sporting fraud should only be penalized by the sporting penalities because it is really damaging the interests of fans, and it encourages teams to challenge promotion, demotion to the courts.
Rossi, all I can, say is missed a golden opportunity for reform, and is beginning to talk about one.
He is just plain imbecile.

He is not plain imbecile, he's just a man (? maybe) working for a club he has been part of.

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Just one last thing on the guilty/not guilty argument:

Would you accept if yourself or a member of your family was judged only on others' suspicions or prejudices?

The men (?) talking at the beginning of the article are two of the judges (one of them is the president) of the 1rst sportive court that has judged us. They had 300.000 (yeah, 5 zeros) phone calls in their hands and a strong will to make us pay. They themselves are saying that the championship was perfectly regular and that there weren't illicit behaviours. Why should they put their foot in their mouth (because this is what they have done) this way, if they had found even a little stupid something against us?

I read many phone taps and the most Moggi does is telling one of the designator that he had come up with a great solution for the refs of the upcoming sunday. He tells Bergamo/Pairetto his ref/match combinations and at the end of the call the other one says "How comical, we have done the same list". What's really comical is that if you compare their lists and the refs who actually refereed, they are completely different.
And while Moggi (not knowing he was being heard) talks on the phone with Bergamo and Pairetto, never really asking for -or getting- anything, Pairetto and Bergamo go regularly to dinner with Facchetti and are being threatened by Meani.

In a phone tap one of the designators tells the ref (of Roma-Juventus, the 72 fouls one): "If there is any doubt, make it never be in Juventus' favour, god forbid!". How exactly were we helped?

We weren't and our successes were thanks to a wonderful team, who knew what it meant working hard and that in 2004-05 fielded:

Buffon
Zebina-Thuram-Cannavaro-Zambrotta
Camoranesi-Emerson-Blasi-Nedved
Ibrahimovic-Del Piero/Trezeguet

And in 2005-06:

Buffon
X-Thuram-Cannavaro-Zambrotta
Camoranesi-Emerson-Vieira-Nedved
Ibrahimovic-Trezeguet

I'd say we didn't need any help. And why would anyone have wanted to help us? Let's not forget that the Lega was in the hands of Galliani, Figc in Carraro's (a Milan man), the money making all the carnival survive in Berlusconi's and the phone company tapping even the Ministers without them knowing (!) in Tronchetti Provera's (Inter). What did we exactly have? Gea? You should see the list of the of their players. We were so powerful that not even Gazzetta and Corriere Della Sera (RCS newspapers - owned by IFIL) have taken our side.

While I have a looooooooong list of what led Inter to this scudetto.
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As for Rossi, he never had any other intention than getting Inter the Scudetto and some other favours. It's not like he didn't do it even without being the federcalcio's president.
He doesn't give a da*n about cleaning football, because it would mean getting rid of himself.

Turning to my original argument, whether Juve is indeed guilty or not, I still hold the belief that relegation was the worst possible setence court could have given in terms of consequences. I have mentioned previously, in any delegation of work, those who are delegating (the principals) will have to rely on the honesty of those actually running the enterprise or working (agent) because in reality one cannot for ethical, finite risk taking, and wealth constraint purposes cannot design an optimal contract which ensures the maximum level of input as in the textbook case. This means that responsibility that principals or shareholders should have for the wrong-doings of the management should be limited.

It's more complicated than this.
Not all the football managers are simpy agents. Many have the so called "power of signature" and it means they legally represent the club and the club itself answers for their wrongdoings, because it's like they are the personification of club. Our legal representative was Giraudo.

 

[isha00]

my bad, havent spoken japanese in a while so i got a little excited

I guessed so, and that's why I didn't warn you right away, but if you had continued, I would have had to do it :wink:

 

[Jun-hide]

Isha,

Damm you lawyers, you guys are too fixated on the technical procedural justice!:biggrin: .
A does of economic textbook wouldnt do you guys any harm! .

Anyway, I wouldnt want to go as far as claiming that Rossi is doing all this for Inter's cause, because the very prospect is just simply frightening. But you are making good case for it!

I am just wondering though, does the initial sporting tribunal had the right to enforce other forms of penalties other than sporting consequences?
Because it seems to me relegation for sporting fraud is modern day equivalent to "eye for eye".
As I have mentioned in the previous post, some form of financial compromise would have been much better solutionto. The whole problem, IMO, starts from the disparity between clubs in income and unless Serie A can put its league in more equitable footing I fear sadly it has no future with similar outcome bound reoccur in the future. Of course for PR purposes the court could not negotiate with those found guilty, but surely backdoor agreements which you Italians are known to be good at could have ensured similar outcome with appropriate cover on it.

 

[Vinman]

Isha,

Damm you lawyers, you guys are too fixated on the technical procedural justice!:biggrin: .
A does of economic textbook wouldnt do you guys any harm! .

Anyway, I wouldnt want to go as far as claiming that Rossi is doing all this for Inter's cause, because the very prospect is just simply frightening. But you are making good case for it!

I am just wondering though, does the initial sporting tribunal had the right to enforce other forms of penalties other than sporting consequences?
Because it seems to me relegation for sporting fraud is modern day equivalent to "eye for eye".
As I have mentioned in the previous post, some form of financial compromise would have been much better solutionto. The whole problem, IMO, starts from the disparity between clubs in income and unless Serie A can put its league in more equitable footing I fear sadly it has no future with similar outcome bound reoccur in the future. Of course for PR purposes the court could not negotiate with those found guilty, but surely backdoor agreements which you Italians are known to be good at could have ensured similar outcome with appropriate cover on it.

on the contrary there, Jun, I believe he is...

Reggina just received their punishment today : -15 points, BUT they stay in Serie A

Rossi is being controlled by Moratti, and he wants us out of Serie A AT ALL COSTS !!!

talk about corruption !!!

 

[Ascension]

Nice article. Thanx for the translation. It was really a great reading from which you could actually learn something useful about the scandal.

 

[isha00]

Isha,

Damm you lawyers, you guys are too fixated on the technical procedural justice!:biggrin: .
A does of economic textbook wouldnt do you guys any harm! .

Anyway, I wouldnt want to go as far as claiming that Rossi is doing all this for Inter's cause, because the very prospect is just simply frightening. But you are making good case for it!

Jun,
He's Moratti's personal lawyer, he has been part of their board. How much more interista can he get?

 

[C4ISR]

He is Moratti's lawyer?! Incredible.

 

[AzzurriGirl]

How does Italy allow a person with obvious partiality and conflict of interest (Rossi with Inter) run a sporting commission?

Why is there not a neutral person with no club ties/associations in Rossi's position? The corruption here is blatant!:angry2:

 

[Igal]

First of all thank you for translating and posting this article! It was both informative and educative!

Now, I didn't read all the replies here, but as someone said here - referees are only human and it is human to make mistakes. The Supercup was already mentioned here, so I also want to remind a certain game in Perugia, under a pouring rain. According to every possible rule this game should have been stopped and postponed. One of the rules actually says that the ref has to drop the ball in 3 different places on the field and if the ball fails to jump off the ground - the game should be stopped. Collina made this check several times and every time the ball failed to jump, yet Collina ordered to keep playing. The rest is history. Pardon my language, but I'm not gonna bitching now about this game and the fact that we lost the championship in this game, I'm only saying that to remind you that referees also made huge mistakes that not at all in Juve's favour.

 

[Juve_fanatic]

this is really a great article!!! but what good do we have of it?? nothing!! it will only piss u off further more and you will be even more disapointed seeing that the real "criminals" got away with no punishment!!! thx a lot for the article i can see that you have put a great effort in it but.......

 

[Robert]

Just great!!!