A Thin Religious Line (12 Viewers)

[Enron]

You're right you know. Islam has always been an open religion and has always welcomed discussion, but that is changing. Not everyone is allowed to debate about Islam. Debating about Islam is now something that is reserved for muslims.

That seems silly to me because people tend to regularly debate and discuss belief systems on a general basis, whether they be religious or otherwise. That's what it comes down to, religion being essentially a system of belief.

But I get it, the country club ceases to be fun when everyone else shows up.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Alen]

A new religion thread coming in seconds, are you ready?

We're not posting in the same threads or you've been gone for the last few days?

In any case, I missed you pervert

 

[Snoop]

We're not posting in the same threads or you've been gone for the last few days?

In any case, I missed you pervert

Says the guy who avoided this http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29038 :broken:

How dare you man? :frown2:

 

[Zé Tahir]

Qoran and Hadith? Where exactly is it mentioned in Qoran?

Where is what mentioned? I'm confused.

It doesn't make sense at all because in many cases this is the man who is sterile.

I know at least two women in and out of my family that can't bear children and it's not because their husbands are sterile. In any case, my point was that the circumstances have to have some reason behind them. People mentioned the child mortality rates (something that still exists), others mentioned war and famish, etc.

You either approve the whole thing of men being allowed to take more than one wife or not. If you do, the case is closed. If you don't, are you going to disapprove a clear Qoran saying with adjusting it by time saying that since the reasons for that law don't apply for this time, men must be forbidden to have more than one wife just like the women?

I know you know that the Qur'an has several verses directed at certain people during a certain time period. Not all of the verses apply for everyone for all of time. If the reason for marrying more than one wife doesn't arise due to advancements in technology and better conditions then where is the need?

The Qur'an was written the way it is because it leaves it to be interpreted by the reader and it is written for all of time so not everything will make sense until the time comes. We can use our minds, it's ok. Don't let the Mullah confuse you.

No man I hear you loud and clear. If you're not a Muslim, get the fuck out. I get it. Peace.

Nooo! Don't leave!

Well yeah, the rest of us can't really understand those things the way you do, and many times we can't understand them at all, but we can at least get some kind of idea and your discussions with people who were born in a Muslim world, educated there, were Muslim themselves and still live there, are surely helping us a lot.

You're the system and they're the rebels. With your discussions, who sometimes get heated, we actually do learn a lot, even if we don't completely understand.

I hear ya

I mentioned before that Islam raised the status of slaves as well as women when compared to pre-Islamic era and gave them rights they never had. But compared to the current stage of morality Islamic law needs a big change. Muslims took slaves as Gifts and/or war prizes.


I am not sure whether thats a fact but its still practiced in some Islamic Countries.. I don't have time for research now.



I think the correct term is concubines. So let me get this straight, you think its okay for lets say the USA Soldiers to take afghani women as slaves instead of just shooting them? what about not harming them at all?
I go into your country and defeat your army and its okay for me to take your women as slaves because i could kill them if i want to... now thats divine Justice!

Not just any woman for Gods sake. Only those that had a part in the war!

The Prophet himself took Maria the Coptic as a concubines and there are opposing theories about whether she died a christian concubine, or died a christian wife or died as a muslim wife. He received her as a GIFT... a woman as a GIFT.

Those were the customs of the people back then and it still exists in parts the world. That has absolutely nothing to do with Islam. Prophet Muhammad married the woman that was given to her while many people back then just kept them without marrying them.

Women can't marry more than one man because it would've been impossible to find out which is the father (thats one reason i've been told).

But yes part of the concept of having 4 wives is so you can fulfill your sexual fantasies... actually that + having a wife that cant give birth are the 2 most popular circumstances for that.

What? Are you saying that is the reason or that is why people you know practice it? There's a big difference.

If you seriously think that Human Rights and Islamic law Go hand in Hand then seriously .

A former President of the International Court of Justice & President of the UN General Assembly begs to differ.

Btw, i do not have a wrong understanding of Islam as you claim i do... but obviously Islam manifests itself differently in different parts of the world and points of focus are different.
Plus you are not even a Sunni Muslim so that makes the dialogue between us much more difficult. I have no clue about Ahmadiyya Teachings and so far all my attacks are on Sunni Islam. I'd like the other Sunni Muslims to give their response as well because i hardly believe they share your beliefs

You're right that your attack is on Sunni Islam, but you're wrong that your understanding of Islam is not wrong, it is. I wouldn't be an Ahmadi if I didn't think Sunni's were wrong.

 

[Alen]

Says the guy who avoided this http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29038 :broken:

How dare you man? :frown2:

I completely missed it
Next time either write your name or write "dedication" in the thread's title.

Well, there is no purpose writing anything there now

 

[ReBeL]

Qoran clearly lets men take more than one wife. Nothing is being said there with regards to the wars, etc. Muslims take their life instructions from Qoran so you can't blame them for taking more than one wife even if you see it as abusing Qoran instructions. If a law is "free'' to be abused by the people, it's the vulnerability of that law not the problem of people who abuse it in a way which suits them the most. Suppose that in a particular situation, the government legitimates it for people to carry guns with themselves however this isn't being mentioned that this is an interim law. When the case is over, when the point of carrying guns doesn't stand anymore, some people might go on walking armed on the streets because there's no law prohibiting them. You can't blame them. The law and the ones who've legitimated it are to blame.

Is this mentioned in Qoran or you think Qoran needs to be adjusted as time goes?

Ok, Hoori...

I have to tell you something important because you mentioned many times that as long as that was mentioned in Quran, then it should be applied by all Muslims as it is.

Let me ask you something. Did you read in Quran that if you want to pray the Dawn Prayer, you should kneel two times and kowtow 4 times?? Of course, No. We knew that detail exactly by what Prophet Mohammad told us to do as he explained the general instructions mentioned in Quran...

In the same way, we should not take the verse about marrying more than one woman from Quran as it is without reading the conditions imposed on those who wanted to marry.

In Islam, nowadays many Muslims tend to take only Quran in consideration ignoring the other sources of legislation. We can not do that ever because if we ignore any of these sources, this will be reflected in making partial practicing for our religion, which may lead to making acts that do not agree with Islam.

The main sources of legislation are arranged according to its reliability and dependability:

1- Quran: which is the strongest one. And no other source should have anything contradictory to what it says, but other sources may explain what is mentioned in Quran if it needs clarification.

2- Hadeeth (Sunna): which are the sayings and the acts of Prophet Mohammad. These are gathered in two books written by two early Muslim scholars, Bukhari and Muslem.

3- Ijmaa: Consensus of all the Muslim scholars in one era on a legislation. This source was the result of a saying by Prophet Mohammad when he said: "My nation will not have consensus on an aberrant legislation". One of the main legislations that are followed using this source is the percentages of inheritance, after the death of someone, that are not mentioned in Quran.

4- Qiyas: Which means almost estimation and trying to think of the nearest Islamic legislation mentioned in Quran and Sunna to the case under testing.

5- Ijtehad: Assiduity. Which means making big efforts to understand the texts of the first four sources when no other clarification is there in these four sources.

Finally, if something is mentioned Quran, it should not be taken as it is with some interpretation of some random guy here or there just to fill his personal desires.

 

[Alen]

Why am I banned?

What do you mean?


Edit: Oh, it's another account. I second your question then.

 

[Snoop]

I completely missed it
Next time either write your name or write "dedication" in the thread's title.

Well, there is no purpose writing anything there now

Are you that bad or slow to guess what that is? This is what marriage did to you, pity

 

[ReBeL]

Do it for the sake of guys like me and Martin who are indeed eager to learn.

I know that sometimes both me and Martin can say something you won't like but it's never in a malicious way.
I'm learning a lot from all of you Muslims (well, from most of you if not all) and I do like the discussions you, Fred, Reb, Ahmed etc have with snake_midget and Hoori.

The latter were also Muslims in the past, they live in Muslim countries and surely know more than the rest of us non-Muslims. Both are educated so i'm taking their opinion on this seriously, just like I take yours or Reb's or Fred's etc.

What I want to tell you is that instead of saying what you said in the quoted part above, I'd really appreciate it if you actually give an answer and get involved more seriously in the discussion, the way you did with your previous post.

Grazie

I don't need to have a fundamental knowledge of Islam to realize that many people in the world practicing Islam may have a misguided version of the religion to follow or something very similar snake_midget's.

What Snake's version of the what the Koran says about polygamy is probably is not correct, yet it is probably shared by many many people worldwide. And that is a very big problem.

Look man, I'm not here to make judgments or pretend I know Islam. I'm here to learn. I spend much more time in these threads reading than I do speaking. Occasionally I ask a question or make a point when I'm on to something. You'll have to excuse my dumb ass for clouding your day.

One of the main reasons I keep posting in this forum is having this kind of discussions with people like both of you. I'm not an ideal Muslim guy, but I like to clarify what I believe in to others to know more about my religion because unfortunately it is often misunderstood...

 

[Enron]

Nooo! Don't leave!

There isn't a sarcasm smilie man.

I'm not going anywhere, though you did seriously piss me off for a moment.

 

[ReBeL]

Btw, i do not have a wrong understanding of Islam as you claim i do... but obviously Islam manifests itself differently in different parts of the world and points of focus are different.
Plus you are not even a Sunni Muslim so that makes the dialogue between us much more difficult. I have no clue about Ahmadiyya Teachings and so far all my attacks are on Sunni Islam. I'd like the other Sunni Muslims to give their response as well because i hardly believe they share your beliefs

Well, I'm Sunni Muslim but I'm not interested to discuss some guy who is proud to say that his words are nothing but attacks on Islam because there is no point in having such a discussion.

 

[Zé Tahir]

There isn't a sarcasm smilie man.

I'm not going anywhere, though you did seriously piss me off for a moment.

My post was directed at Eddy actually, it just happened to fall right after yours.

You can be pissed all you want but I still love you

 

[Enron]

My post was directed at Eddy actually, it just happened to fall right after yours.

You can be pissed all you want but I still love you

That's why I was caught off guard.

 

[Enron]

Wait. Who is Il Principino?

 

[Alen]

Wait. Who is Il Principino?

Seven?

Earlier today a member asked me if Il Principino is Seven. I had absolutely no idea and after I checked Il Principino's posts, even though they were posted in some threads that Seven was visiting, he didn't look like Seven at all to me. The guy stroke me as some religious freak.

Later I sent a PM to Il Principino and I asked him "Are you a former member who was a friend of mine here". The guy answered me with "I'm afraid I don't understand your question". Then I kept asking him some things indirectly, but I got nothing.

So I want to know if it was Seven or not and how did the mods conclude that it's Seven, if it was Seven?

 

[Enron]

Seven?

Earlier today a member asked me if Il Principino is Seven. I had absolutely no idea and after I checked Il Principino's posts, even though they were posted in some threads that Seven was visiting, he didn't look like Seven at all to me. The guy stroke me as some religious freak.

Later I sent a PM to Il Principino and I asked him "Are you a former member who was a friend of mine here". The guy answered me with "I'm afraid I don't understand your question". Then I kept asking him some things indirectly, but I got nothing.

So I want to know if it was Seven or not and how did the mods conclude that it's Seven, if it was Seven?

He made an un-Seven-like mistake when he responded to Ze's post. Plus I'm sure Seven wouldn't be asking why he was banned. He'd probably be questioning someone about it.

 

[Snoop]

Seven?

Earlier today a member asked me if Il Principino is Seven. I had absolutely no idea and after I checked Il Principino's posts, even though they were posted in some threads that Seven was visiting, he didn't look like Seven at all to me. The guy stroke me as some religious freak.

Later I sent a PM to Il Principino and I asked him "Are you a former member who was a friend of mine here". The guy answered me with "I'm afraid I don't understand your question". Then I kept asking him some things indirectly, but I got nothing.

So I want to know if it was Seven or not and how did the mods conclude that it's Seven, if it was Seven?

The psychological war of Seven, he put the paranoia thoughts in mods by doubting all the new comers as a potential Seven

 

[Enron]

Well he's gone now. So I guess it could be.

 

[Zé Tahir]

No way he's Seven. He's made several non-Seven-like posts.

 

[Enron]

No way he's Seven. He's made several non-Seven-like posts.

This is going to bother me.