A second look at Virginia Tech (13 Viewers)

[Martin]

But can you really expect the whole village to raise the child here? Because it's more than just casual conversations of passing people. It sounds like you're talking about a social commitment we all have to establish some kind of stronger mental safety net.

Well I wasn't trying to fix the Danish cartoon problem today. But as a matter of fact, I do think this place is a wonderful social crutch. And it's not the only one of its kind, internet connectivity is pretty big already in the world.

Maybe worth a debate, but the facts are there are people I don't like. And I don't want to waste my time on some people I don't like. I could try really hard to like someone, but after a point I really have other things to do. Or it's just not in my interests.

Sure, and we don't want to go around hating ourselves for being fake and pretending to love people we hate. But there's a balance there somewhere, you can dislike someone without being hostile. Or even be mildly nice with a greeting while you keep walking. It doesn't take very much, it's not like you have to take them to ball games.

 

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[swag]

You know, I got along well with Tifoso Lou. But a lot of posters here, unprovoked and perhaps mostly out of boredom, ganged up on and terrorized him like they were still in second grade.

Do you honestly believe, Martin, that all said posters would lay down their arms to have a real conversation with the guy? I think it's a valiant idea, but totally unrealistic. And solving for a utopian society is a bad premise and a waste of time.

From what I know, despite people insulting his family members and accusing him of unspeakable crimes against them, Lou held up pretty well. But in real-life circumstances, it had the ingredients of a school shooting in my book.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

People who are bullied = mentally ill

All makes sense now.

School shootings? Who cares. Let them increase.

That's not what he was saying.

he was just making a general statement, not saying that all bullied people are mentally ill

Martin, the guy was a lunatic. You can't blame society for an individual's actions, you can only blame that individual for not taking matters into his own hands. He;s not a villain from the comic books but he was psycho, many people have gone through very similar circumstances in life if not worse and did not go out shooting their school.

Agree.

Help for what? It's a tough world out there, you won't have people hold your hand all time and guide you along. You guys make it seem like this person is just an innocent three year old that was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was a grown man when he commited these murders, there is no reason why he should get any less of the blame regardless of what went on during his childhood.

Agree.

The kid had to have some semblance of what is right and wrong.









You guys in here are just pussies who care more about 14 people or whatever than you do everyone else.

WHat about all the other peeps out there gettin' shot up?

Over in Iraq, niggas be dyin'!

 

[Martin]

You know, I got along well with Tifoso Lou. But a lot of posters here, unprovoked and perhaps mostly out of boredom, ganged up on and terrorized him like they were still in second grade.

Great example. And for what? He was a little different than some people. Well, so was Cho. And a lot of people are. This is a sickness to abuse people like this.

Do you honestly believe, Martin, that all said posters would lay down their arms to have a real conversation with the guy?

I'll tell you what I do believe. I do believe that if hypothetically there was someone who was passionate about having an inclusive and friendly community (someone, oh I don't know, like me when I started juventuz), that person could influence others to play nice and be friendly, and that would be enough for the attitude to spread and the whole forum would be well behaved and having a good time. All it takes is to push away those thoughts you have when someone rubs you the wrong way.

Now, that is a historical fact. Obviously I was the admin here and I had the power to do it. But we did.

All it takes is the willingness to do it. There are some hard cases around here. But I can talk to Seven. Maybe not pacify him, but over time people relent to influence if the outcome is positive. Dan is an old member, no problem there. Dominic, haven't really been there but I don't think it's a lost cause. It's really not that impossible.

 

[swag]

Great example. And for what? He was a little different than some people. Well, so was Cho. And a lot of people are. This is a sickness to abuse people like this.

No disagreement there.

I'll tell you what I do believe. I do believe that if hypothetically there was someone who was passionate about having an inclusive and friendly community (someone, oh I don't know, like me when I started juventuz), that person could influence others to play nice and be friendly, and that would be enough for the attitude to spread and the whole forum would be well behaved and having a good time. All it takes is to push away those thoughts you have when someone rubs you the wrong way.

Now, that is a historical fact. Obviously I was the admin here and I had the power to do it. But we did.

Well, I was a mod. And I often caught people like Seven going after Lou, and I would often berate Seven for having nothing better to do but to bully Lou because he must have been acting out on the ass-kickings he must have been getting back at home. It settled some conversations down a little, but it never stopped. And yet at the same time people like Dan would go on an immortalize Seven's abuse of Lou in his signature.

Not that I presume to have anything of the influence here as you do, Martin. But I definitely did not get the feeling I was able to do anything more than prevent a handful of situations from getting completely out of hand. But the abuse still occurred and surfaced elsewhere just as ever.

 

[Lilith]

How each of us perceives the slings and arrows from others is subjective. It's different whether you're hypersensitive, you have a mental illness, you're taking drugs, and various shades of gray inbetween.

And no one on the outside can control that. You can't expect someone to say, "Ahh, I see you rank 8.3 on the personal offense scale, so instead of saying "Fuck off, loser", I'm going to say, "Sorry, tonight I have to wash my hair."??

You can't control the perception of others.

And solving for a utopian society is a bad premise and a waste of time.

Never going to happen.

 

[Martin]

Well, I was a mod. And I often caught people like Seven going after Lou, and I would often berate Seven for having nothing better to do but to bully Lou because he must have been acting out on the ass-kickings he must have been getting back at home. It settled some conversations down a little, but it never stopped. And yet at the same time people like Dan would go on an immortalize Seven's abuse of Lou in his signature.

Not that I presume to have anything of the influence here as you do, Martin. But I definitely did not get the feeling I was able to do anything more than prevent a handful of situations from getting completely out of hand. But the abuse still occurred and surfaced elsewhere just as ever.

The trick is to "make contact" with the person, show them that you can see it from their side. At the same time try to convince them of the goal that you have for the group (the goal that is more worthwhile than their petty spat of the moment), you need to be able to sell the idea for them to get on board. And when they see that you can get things done with other people, I think they just tend to join in.

Obviously, it would be really hard to decide to change right now, inertia and all that. I didn't exert my influence on my own, I was able to convince the moderators to go along with it and we had a united front, all decisions were taken as a group. But it takes a lot of effort, I'll never deny that. And I was plain burned out after doing it for a few years, sick of dealing with people's issues that made them want to attack others. Stopped caring. And heck, this isn't a bad place to be now. Just not what it was.

 

[rounder]

In the words of Chris Rock, " What the fuck ever happened to crazy?".

 

[Martin]

In the words of Chris Rock, " What the fuck ever happened to crazy?".

Getting drunk is crazy, stealing a car is crazy, shooting up Columbine only to end in suicide is not crazy, it's a lot more than that.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

That's your opinion, it is not fact.

 

[Martin]

That's your opinion, it is not fact.

what?

 

[swag]

The trick is to "make contact" with the person, show them that you can see it from their side. At the same time try to convince them of the goal that you have for the group (the goal that is more worthwhile than their petty spat of the moment), you need to be able to sell the idea for them to get on board. And when they see that you can get things done with other people, I think they just tend to join in.

Obviously, it would be really hard to decide to change right now, inertia and all that. I didn't exert my influence on my own, I was able to convince the moderators to go along with it and we had a united front, all decisions were taken as a group. But it takes a lot of effort, I'll never deny that. And I was plain burned out after doing it for a few years, sick of dealing with people's issues that made them want to attack others. Stopped caring. And heck, this isn't a bad place to be now. Just not what it was.

Mobbing is a weird thing sometimes. People will do it as a means of socially "fitting in", earning the perceived approval of the other group members, and also as a way of deflecting that very same potential treatment by the group upon themselves. Whether in a street gang or an online forum.

There are some people you could probably convince of the value of not mobbing someone else, but that's a really hard sell sometimes. Not everyone prefers a universe without conflict. And what's the upside to them to break ranks, really? To risk themselves being targeted for similar abuse by taking sides with the victim? That's likely. To not risk the victim arming himself and shooting up everyone dead over the abuses? It's a motivator, but it's likelihood is so ridiculously low that only the former reality stands out.

I think the only real shot you have is to get a few respected "leaders" -- and those with enough street cred to not risk being turned upon as greatly -- to set an example by changing course. Even so, there are so many potential negatives versus positives for anyone who sticks his neck out in these situations.

 

[rounder]

Getting drunk is crazy, stealing a car is crazy, shooting up Columbine only to end in suicide is not crazy, it's a lot more than that.

Perhaps there are core reasons behind his actions. That still does not make him any less crazy.

 

[Bjerknes]

How each of us perceives the slings and arrows from others is subjective. It's different whether you're hypersensitive, you have a mental illness, you're taking drugs, and various shades of gray inbetween.

And no one on the outside can control that. You can't expect someone to say, "Ahh, I see you rank 8.3 on the personal offense scale, so instead of saying "Fuck off, loser", I'm going to say, "Sorry, tonight I have to wash my hair."??

Of course how one perceives words is subjective. This isn't the issue.

The issue is the constant bombardment of the same words used by everybody, and that these words have repercussions.

We may not be able to control the thoughts of an individual, but we can certainly shape them. If somebody runs their mouth off on a racist diatribe in the middle of Baltimore, I suppose it's freedom of speech, but good luck suffering the consequences.

While Cho should have taken more responsibility and not killed 30 or so people, individuals need to take responsibility for what they say. If they would, we would not have as many problems as we do today.

 

[rounder]

If you guys are arguing that people should develop some sort of sense of 'common courtesy' then I'm all for it. A little kindness here and there never hurt anybody. But if you're asking for people to go out of their way and waste their time on massively confused kids like Cho and try to help them, then you are asking too much.

 

[Martin]

Mobbing is a weird thing sometimes. People will do it as a means of socially "fitting in", earning the perceived approval of the other group members, and also as a way of deflecting that very same potential treatment by the group upon themselves. Whether in a street gang or an online forum.

There are some people you could probably convince of the value of not mobbing someone else, but that's a really hard sell sometimes. Not everyone prefers a universe without conflict. And what's the upside to them to break ranks, really? To risk themselves being targeted for similar abuse by taking sides with the victim?

On a forum it's easy of course. The admin is the ultimate authority, so all you have to do is take a stand that is reasonable and that makes a strong enough backing for anyone to join, risk free. The same applies to moderators if you all play as a team and the mod has backing from the admin etc.

I'm not much of a peace maker in real life, I don't enjoy confrontation.

That's likely. To not risk the victim arming himself and shooting up everyone dead over the abuses? It's a motivator, but it's likelihood is so ridiculously low that only the former reality stands out.

I think the only real shot you have is to get a few respected "leaders" -- and those with enough street cred to not risk being turned upon as greatly -- to set an example by changing course. Even so, there are so many potential negatives versus positives for anyone who sticks his neck out in these situations.

The idea is to be nice because you see that it benefits you, through better relationships, not do it in spite of yourself. There will always be agitators, but if the masses don't join up with them, then they won't do too much damage. For that matter, if you're the guy who's generally on good terms with everyone, then an agitator who knows this about you won't find you an attractive recruit, cause he'll know you won't be very willing to join his crew. It's people who are easily polarized who make great recruits.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Getting drunk is crazy, stealing a car is crazy, shooting up Columbine only to end in suicide is not crazy, it's a lot more than that.

That's your opinion, it is not fact.

what?

Are you obtuse?

 

[Martin]

Are you obtuse?

Crazy in Chris Rock's definition in reference to his bit about the Columbine kids. Also, he's a comedian, he exaggerates things on purpose..

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Ohh, that was a quote?

 

[Martin]

Yeah it was in one of his specials, I don't remember which.