A second look at Virginia Tech (5 Viewers)

[Martin]

What you actually meant. Your reply to my reply was way more specific than the other post which I thought to be a bit general. That's all.

What I meant was I don't like this vilification that Cho got. "Omg who is he, some kind of crazy kid, where did he come from." No, he's one of *us*, we've lived with him for 4 years, we know him, and we pushed him, unknowingly, to this.

 

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[Martin]

no matter what we do, there is NO guarantee that something like this will never happen again

I believe in getting the mentally ill all the help they can get (there are plenty of mentally ill people out there, with varying degrees of illness), but I cannot condone this kids actions as somehow being justifiable.

But noone has tried to condone it. Just saying that he's not a villain in a comic book, he's a person too, with his own story and personal history, which the people around him had a lot to do with. So if he's guilty then, inevitably, they are too. (Not of murder, of course.)

 

[Bjerknes]

Funny how people think we're condoning murders.

 

[Martin]

People who are bullied = mentally ill

Andy is right here. Just because you have some kind of weakness doesn't mean you should be labeled as mentally ill, I don't see how anything good can come from that in terms of social acceptance. Unless you have to be institutionalized, let's be a little easy on those labels.

 

[rounder]

Martin, the guy was a lunatic. You can't blame society for an individual's actions, you can only blame that individual for not taking matters into his own hands. He;s not a villain from the comic books but he was psycho, many people have gone through very similar circumstances in life if not worse and did not go out shooting their school.

 

[Vinman]

People who are bullied = mentally ill

All makes sense now.

School shootings? Who cares. Let them increase.

you make little sense, Andy

I never said that people who are bullied are mentally ill...obviously this kid, or should I say murderer, had problems long before the bullying started

There are bullies everywhere you go, and I think that most people are bullied in one way or another in their lives, so you tell me how we can prevent this ? I dont feel that murdering others is justification, unless its in self-defense, where your life is in imminent danger, which his wasnt

from the article-

Early the next morning, December 14, Cho was assessed first by a clinical psychologist, then by a psychiatrist, then brought before a special justice of the county circuit court, who ruled that Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness." At 2:00 PM that afternoon, Cho was discharged from the psychiatric facility.

why was he discharged if he was "an imminenet danger to himself" or others for that matter ??

here's where the blame starts....

 

[Martin]

A little bit off topic but still related.

I think you make a good point when you say society should look at their actions as well. Sometimes however these people don't even think what they are doing is wrong . For instance, I worked at this place where this creature also worked. The creature didn't like a lot of people, and I think it hated me the most. Anyway this creature used to bully people and also try to get them fired when it didn't like them. In most of cases it succeeded except in mine because I was always well liked by my bosses. It did however make my life hell. The creature never succeeded and eventually I left of my own accord. The creature (who was really evil incarnate) eventually got fired. :xmas: However to this day, the creature always tells my friends that it doesn't know how such bad things could happen to it since it was always such a good person. That got some jaw dropping reactions from people because even those that got along with it saw the true nature of the beast and thought it was evil incarnate as well. Anyway my point is, how do we get society to take a look at itself when society sometimes tends to have this skewed vision that it's perfect?

Absolutely, and this thread is sliding ever more into psychology, which is totally by me

 

[Martin]

you make little sense, Andy

I never said that people who are bullied are mentally ill...obviously this kid, or should I say murderer, had problems long before the bullying started

from the article-



why was he discharged if he was "an imminenet danger to himself" or others for that matter ??

here's where the blame starts....

indeed

 

[Bjerknes]

you make little sense, Andy

I never said that people who are bullied are mentally ill...obviously this kid, or should I say murderer, had problems long before the bullying started

There are bullies everywhere you go, and I think that most people are bullied in one way or another in their lives, so you tell me how we can prevent this ? I dont feel that murdering others is justification, unless its in self-defense, where your life is in imminent danger, which his wasnt

from the article-



why was he discharged if he was "an imminenet danger to himself" or others for that matter ??

here's where the blame starts....

Like I've said, I'm not defending killing people.

 

[Lilith]

Absolutely, and this thread is sliding ever more into psychology, which is totally by me

My bad!! I did have that off topic disclaimer up there though.

 

[Martin]

Martin, the guy was a lunatic. You can't blame society for an individual's actions, you can only blame that individual for not taking matters into his own hands. He;s not a villain from the comic books but he was psycho, many people have gone through very similar circumstances in life if not worse and did not go out shooting their school.

I don't want to be a dick (which is what this thread is all about, be nice to people), but you make relatively uninformed statements. Did you read the article in the first post? I doubt it. You say he was a lunatic, no doubt nothing more than your personal opinion. Then you call him a psycho, again same thing.

I'm not in the mood to play this out with you, see if you can follow the discussion that has already taken place and I think your points have been answered more than once.

 

[Bjerknes]

Martin, the guy was a lunatic. You can't blame society for an individual's actions, you can only blame that individual for not taking matters into his own hands. He;s not a villain from the comic books but he was psycho, many people have gone through very similar circumstances in life if not worse and did not go out shooting their school.

More nonsense from you.

Again, who could he have went to for help?

You come with no points, so people should just ignore you.

 

[Martin]

My bad!! I did have that off topic disclaimer up there though.

But that's what this is all about, perceptions of yourself, and of the world. Many of us have similar perceptions, our world views agree. In cases like Cho that is violently disrupted, everyone sees the guy as a loner and misfit, whereas he thinks this is a sign they all hate him or something. That's what we humans have to overcome our differences: language.

 

[rounder]

More nonsense from you.

Again, who could he have went to for help?

You come with no points, so people should just ignore you.

Help for what? It's a tough world out there, you won't have people hold your hand all time and guide you along. You guys make it seem like this person is just an innocent three year old that was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was a grown man when he commited these murders, there is no reason why he should get any less of the blame regardless of what went on during his childhood.

 

[swag]

But that's what this is all about, perceptions of yourself, and of the world. Many of us have similar perceptions, our world views agree. In cases like Cho that is violently disrupted, everyone sees the guy as a loner and misfit, whereas he thinks this is a sign they all hate him or something. That's what we humans have to overcome our differences: language.

But isn't that a bit unrealistic, Martin? People don't always choose to be offended or not by something or someone, and yet they are -- despite intentions. It's ridiculously subjective.

No amount of feel-good, heart-to-heart, chit-chat therapy is going to suddenly make blood-boiled Muslims suddenly want to stop killing cartoonists in Denmark.

 

[Bjerknes]

Help for what? It's a tough world out there, you won't have people hold your hand all time and guide you along. You guys make it seem like this person is just an innocent three year old that was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was a grown man when he commited these murders, there is no reason why he should get any less of the blame regardless of what went on during his childhood.

Again, doesn't address why it happens, doesn't do anything to solve the problem. Status quo.

Let the bullets fly.

But isn't that a bit unrealistic, Martin? People don't always choose to be offended or not by something or someone, and yet they are -- despite intentions. It's ridiculously subjective.

No amount of chit-chat is going to suddenly make blood-boiled Muslims suddenly want to stop killing cartoonists in Denmark.

Not the same thing whatsoever.

You can do better than that, Greg.

 

[Martin]

But isn't that a bit unrealistic, Martin? People don't always choose to be offended or not by something or someone, and yet they are -- despite intentions. It's ridiculously subjective.

Unrealistic? We're doing it now. Burke is the kind of guy I would never have known or spent time with in real life. And yet after a few years of back and forth I've gotten to know him and I'd totally shoot the breeze with him now.

No amount of chit-chat is going to suddenly make blood-boiling Muslims suddenly want to stop killing cartoonists in Denmark.

Are you kidding? Ever had Danish? It's sweeeet


Communication really is the only hope we have to reconcile. And one that works quite well I think. I don't know if you recall but the angry Muslims hadn't even seen the cartoons (obviously they couldn't be reprinted). All they knew was a vague rumor that somewhere in a place called Denmark someone had done a terrible thing. Do you really think that if they were able to socialize and talk about their differing perspectives most of the people who were pissed off wouldn't have cooled off?

 

[swag]

Not the same thing whatsoever.

You can do better than that, Greg.

How each of us perceives the slings and arrows from others is subjective. It's different whether you're hypersensitive, you have a mental illness, you're taking drugs, and various shades of gray inbetween.

And no one on the outside can control that. You can't expect someone to say, "Ahh, I see you rank 8.3 on the personal offense scale, so instead of saying "Fuck off, loser", I'm going to say, "Sorry, tonight I have to wash my hair."??

 

[swag]

Unrealistic? We're doing it now.?

But can you really expect the whole village to raise the child here? Because it's more than just casual conversations of passing people. It sounds like you're talking about a social commitment we all have to establish some kind of stronger mental safety net.

Maybe worth a debate, but the facts are there are people I don't like. And I don't want to waste my time on some people I don't like. I could try really hard to like someone, but after a point I really have other things to do. Or it's just not in my interests.

 

[Martin]

How each of us perceives the slings and arrows from others is subjective. It's different whether you're hypersensitive, you have a mental illness, you're taking drugs, and various shades of gray inbetween.

And no one on the outside can control that. You can't expect someone to say, "Ahh, I see you rank 8.3 on the personal offense scale, so instead of saying "Fuck off, loser", I'm going to say, "Sorry, tonight I have to wash my hair."??

With a single remark, you can't make a safe bet. But that's where the word "conversation" comes in. If you actually talk to someone you do get an idea of what the level is.