A Pathetic democracy!!! (2 Viewers)

[Ian]

A bus full of children??!!

Why don't you write a novel about this story you made up just now??

There was no story and I made nothing up. You ignore all the parts of my argument that you have no legitimate response for and focus on the one thing that you can counter. Who cares if it's a bus full of children or a cafe, or a nightclub, or a restaurant, or a department store. It's all the same, and it's all fucked up.

 

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[ReBeL]

It's an AP article which is basically just a report. Its not like a column or an actual article written by a reporter. Meaning it has less bias overall but you can't tell where the information came from.

Your point of human nature makes me question to vulneralbility of suicide bomb missions. Its very easy to make such a device. So whats to stop crazy people or even just misled people from blowing up such targets? I mean who gives the orders for these things, we know who claims responsibility, but who is to say the bomber or gunman wasn't working on his own?

Well, let me say something here...

The big majority of the martyr bombers these days are from the northern part of the west bank, specifically Jenin city and its villages...

Do you know why??

Before 2 years, in April 2004, Israeli tanks attacked Jenin city and its camp, destroying big areas of houses and leaving 50 bodies behind them...

Do you know why??

It was because they wanted to hunt one of the most active guerilla's leaders at that time "Abu Jandal"...

This man was a leader for a group that implements attacks on Israeli soldiers ONLY...

The Israeli punishment was by destroying the whole Jenin camp where he lived, killing many innocent people there and making many others homeless...

Do you know why??

Because Israelis wanted to punish the camp for raising such man...

Do you know how he ended fighting after 4 days of the extensive attacks??

He surrendered to Israelis and left his two hands going toward them...

Do you know how they received him??

Two tanks directly went toward him and made his body a bloody slice that mixed with the camp's soil...

You could imagine now how guerilla acts can't be implemented in Palestine, and you can imagine the behavior of those children who saw, from the windows in their houses there, how the only man who surrendered was treated...

 

[Ian]

Well, let me say something here...

The big majority of the martyr bombers these days are from the northern part of the west bank, specifically Jenin city and its villages...

Do you know why??

Before 2 years, in April 2004, Israeli tanks attacked Jenin city and its camp, destroying big areas of houses and leaving 50 bodies behind them...

Do you know why??

It was because they wanted to hunt one of the most active guerilla's leaders at that time "Abu Jandal"...

This man was a leader for a group that implements attacks on Israeli soldiers ONLY...

The Israeli punishment was by destroying the whole Jenin camp where he lived, killing many innocent people there and making many others homeless...

Do you know why??

Because Israelis wanted to punish the camp for raising such man...

Do you jnow how he ended fighting after 4 days of the extensive attacks??

He surrendered to Israelis and left his two hands going toward them...

Doyou know how they received him??

Two tanks directly went toward him and made his body a bloody slice that mixed with the camp's soil...

You could imagine now how guerilla acts can't be implemented in Palestine, and you can imagine the behavior of thoe children who saw, from the windows in their houses there, how the only man who surrendered was treated...

You expect Israel not to fight back? You go to their shops and their restaurants and blow up their people, but you have a problem with killing enemy combatants? Do the suicide bombers give people the chance to surrender?

 

[PhRoZeN]

You expect Israel not to fight back? You go to their shops and their restaurants and blow up their people, but you have a problem with killing enemy combatants? Do the suicide bombers give people the chance to surrender?

I really dont think you even read the post here it is again the main points..

"of houses and leaving 50 bodies behind them..."
"The Israeli punishment was by destroying the whole Jenin camp where he lived, killing many innocent people there and making many others homeless..."

"Two tanks directly went toward him and made his body a bloody slice that mixed with the camp's soil..."

Now the last quote above in speech marks suggests that israel themslves kill their captives in an inhumane way? so whose the humane?

 

[ReBeL]

You expect Israel not to fight back? You go to their shops and their restaurants and blow up their people, but you have a problem with killing enemy combatants? Do the suicide bombers give people the chance to surrender?

I don't expect them to stay calm, but why killing innocent people in the camp just because they live in the same place with that FREEDOM FIGHTER??

Using your logic and their weapons, they could use other ways to kill the man, but they are not interested in doing so...

In brief:

If Israel doesn't care about my innocent people while it can be more careful with the army it has, why should I care for their innocent people(If any)?...

 

[Ian]

I really dont think you even read the post here it is again the main points.

I don't think that killing people is right or justifiable in anyway, but at least the Israelis had some goal in mind. They killed civilians in the process of forcing out an enemy combatant. Palestinians kill civilians, and for what? What does it accomplish? Nothing substantive.

BTW, I'm getting really tired of people saying that I can't read simply because I don't agree with them. Come up with some counter argument instead of this petty bullshit.

 

[Enron]

Well, let me say something here...

The big majority of the martyr bombers these days are from the northern part of the west bank, specifically Jenin city and its villages...

Do you know why??

Before 2 years, in April 2004, Israeli tanks attacked Jenin city and its camp, destroying big areas of houses and leaving 50 bodies behind them...

Do you know why??

It was because they wanted to hunt one of the most active guerilla's leaders at that time "Abu Jandal"...

This man was a leader for a group that implements attacks on Israeli soldiers ONLY...

The Israeli punishment was by destroying the whole Jenin camp where he lived, killing many innocent people there and making many others homeless...

Do you know why??

Because Israelis wanted to punish the camp for raising such man...

Do you know how he ended fighting after 4 days of the extensive attacks??

He surrendered to Israelis and left his two hands going toward them...

Do you know how they received him??

Two tanks directly went toward him and made his body a bloody slice that mixed with the camp's soil...

You could imagine now how guerilla acts can't be implemented in Palestine, and you can imagine the behavior of those children who saw, from the windows in their houses there, how the only man who surrendered was treated...

Yes I understand all this. I think my question wasn't straightforward. I was wondering if most suicide bombers/freedom fighters recieve orders from their group leaders or if they just execute missions on their own feeling or wishes? That was my question, I know the reasons for the reaction by Palestinians. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[PhRoZeN]

I don't think that killing people is right or justifiable in anyway, but at least the Israelis had some goal in mind. They killed civilians in the process of forcing out an enemy combatant. Palestinians kill civilians, and for what? What does it accomplish? Nothing substantive.

BTW, I'm getting really tired of people saying that I can't read simply because I don't agree with them. Come up with some counter argument instead of this petty bullshit.

Every side has a goal.. and the goal that the palestinian have is liberation, freedom from oppression and most of revenge. Now if that isnt regarded as a goal.. i dont know what is.

How you can say that killing innocents aint justifiable and then say that it doesnt matter as long as you caught the original culprit is beyond me.. note that the israel has a choice of killing who they want.. they aint exactly going out there and blowing there camps up are they? they are literally killing them one by one.. now that has a choice unlike the suicide bombing technique which I have already admitted that its a bad choice but nevertheless.. the ONLY choice.

As for your statement regarding you cant read.. the reason I said that is because you side stepped the matters.. it was only fair to bring the issues to light again.. when we are talking about innocent lives.. then you need to acknolwedge that innocent lives are lost on both sides.

Your quote "You expect Israel not to fight back?" was brought into further context by me highlighting the points as to why it was flawed.. killing innocent people is not fighting and yes the palestinian guerillas are never fighting when they apply suiciding bombing because simply that "isnt even a method to fight". However as I have already suggested that Israel does have a choice.. whilst palestinians simply havent. I have countered almost every argument put across.. I dont expect you to get agitated at this stage.. so bare patience just the way I am with you.. as I have yet to get some replies over my previous posts from you.

Also you havent commented on the humane matter which I brought up regarding how israeli forces kill there captives.

 

[ReBeL]

I don't think that killing people is right or justifiable in anyway, but at least the Israelis had some goal in mind. They killed civilians in the process of forcing out an enemy combatant. Palestinians kill civilians, and for what? What does it accomplish? Nothing substantive.

BTW, I'm getting really tired of people saying that I can't read simply because I don't agree with them. Come up with some counter argument instead of this petty bullshit.

All what was said and you're not convinced by anyway that Israelis do something wrong...

Well, execuse me but I regret all the time I spent here arguing with you...

Thanks anyway...

 

[ReBeL]

Yes I understand all this. I think my question wasn't straightforward. I was wondering if most suicide bombers/freedom fighters recieve orders from their group leaders or if they just execute missions on their own feeling or wishes? That was my question, I know the reasons for the reaction by Palestinians. Sorry for any confusion.

Ok...

I think I knew what you're talking about...

The man who started planning this type of bombings was Yahya Ayyash in 1994...

He was an engineer who was making the explosives for the bombers and was guiding them about how to do it (Everything from disguising to even the road signs they may face)...

This man was assassinated by Israel in 2006 and was followed by Muhye Aldeen Alshreef who was killed after months...

Then Awadh-Allah brothers came to take control and they were also killed directly...

Then, nobody knew the man who came after that because it became more secretive thing...

The man who appoints those engineers is now hiding in Gaza and he's the most wanted man for Israel since around 15 years...

 

[Enron]

Ok...

I think I knew what you're talking about...

The man who started planning this types of bombings was Yahya Ayyash in 1994...

He was an engineer who was making the explosives for the bombers and was guiding them about how to do it (Everything from disguising to even the road signs they may face)...

This man was assassinated by Israel in 2006 and was followed by Muhye Aldeen Alshreef who was killed after months...

Then Awadh-Allah brothers came to take control and they were also killed directly...

Then, nobody knew the man who came after that because it became more secretive thing...

The man who appoints those engineers is now hiding in Gaza and he's the most wanted man for Israel since around 15 years...

Awesome thats what I was wanting. Have you seen the film about the suicide bombers, I forget the title but I remember the trailer from a film I saw about a week ago. I am thinking about going to see it if its worth it.

 

[ReBeL]

Awesome thats what I was wanting. Have you seen the film about the suicide bombers, I forget the title but I remember the trailer from a film I saw about a week ago. I am thinking about going to see it if its worth it.

"PARADISE NOW" is the story of two young Palestinian men as they embark upon what may be the last 48 hours of their lives. On a typical day in the West Bank city of Nablus, where daily life grinds on amidst crushing poverty and the occasional rocket blast, we meet two childhood best friends, Saïd (Kais Nashef) and Khaled (Ali Suliman), who pass time drinking tea, smoking a hookah, and working dead-end menial jobs as auto mechanics.

Saïd's day takes a turn for the better when a beautiful young woman named Suha (Lubna Azabal) brings her car in for repairs. From their spirited interaction, it is apparent that there is a budding romance growing between them.

Saïd is approached by middle-aged Jamal (Amer Hlehel), a point man for an unnamed Palestinian organization, who informs Saïd that he and Khaled have been chosen to carry out a strike in Tel Aviv. They have been chosen for this mission as a team, because each had expressed a wish that if either is to die a martyr, the other would want to die alongside his best friend.

Saïd and Khaled have been preparing for this moment for most of their lives. They spend a last night at home -- although they must keep their impending mission secret even from their families. During the night Saïd sneaks off to see Suha one last time. Suha's moderate views, having been educated in Europe, and Saïd's burgeoning conflicted conscience cause him to stop short of explaining why he has come to say good-bye.

The following day, Saïd and Khaled are lead to a hole in the fence that surrounds Nablus, where they are to meet a driver who will take them to Tel Aviv. But here the plan goes wrong, and Saïd and Khaled are separated.

"PARADISE NOW" follows two Palestinian childhood friends who have been recruited for a strike on Tel Aviv and focuses on their last days together. When they are intercepted at the Israeli border and separated from their handlers, a young woman who discovers their plan causes them to reconsider their actions.

Winner of multiple prizes at the 2005 Berlin Film Festival, and invited to the 2005 Telluride Film Festival and Toronto International Film Festival, the film was written by Hany Abu-Assad ("Ford Transit," "Rana's Wedding") & Bero Beyer and directed by Abu-Assad, and stars Kais Nashef, Ali Suliman, Lubna Azabal.

"PARADISE NOW" is a production of Augustus Film with Lama Films, Razor Film, Lumen Films, Arte France Cinema, Hazazah Film and produced with the support of Nederlands Fonds Voor De Film, Filmstiftung Nordrhein-Westfalen, Eurimages, Medienboard Berlin-Brandenburg, I2I Preparatory Action of the European Community and World Cinema Fund.

If you care, visit this website:
http://wip.warnerbros.com/paradisenow/

Personally, I saw parts of the movie as it's yet to be shown in the place where I live and I think it's really great...

 

[Enron]

"PARADISE NOW" is the story of two young Palestinian men as they embark upon what may be the last 48 hours of their lives. On a typical day in the West Bank city of Nablus, where daily life grinds on amidst crushing poverty and the occasional rocket blast, we meet two childhood best friends, Saïd (Kais Nashef) and Khaled (Ali Suliman), who pass time drinking tea, smoking a hookah, and working dead-end menial jobs as auto mechanics.

Saïd's day takes a turn for the better when a beautiful young woman named Suha (Lubna Azabal) brings her car in for repairs. From their spirited interaction, it is apparent that there is a budding romance growing between them.

Saïd is approached by middle-aged Jamal (Amer Hlehel), a point man for an unnamed Palestinian organization, who informs Saïd that he and Khaled have been chosen to carry out a strike in Tel Aviv. They have been chosen for this mission as a team, because each had expressed a wish that if either is to die a martyr, the other would want to die alongside his best friend.

Saïd and Khaled have been preparing for this moment for most of their lives. They spend a last night at home -- although they must keep their impending mission secret even from their families. During the night Saïd sneaks off to see Suha one last time. Suha's moderate views, having been educated in Europe, and Saïd's burgeoning conflicted conscience cause him to stop short of explaining why he has come to say good-bye.

The following day, Saïd and Khaled are lead to a hole in the fence that surrounds Nablus, where they are to meet a driver who will take them to Tel Aviv. But here the plan goes wrong, and Saïd and Khaled are separated.

"PARADISE NOW" follows two Palestinian childhood friends who have been recruited for a strike on Tel Aviv and focuses on their last days together. When they are intercepted at the Israeli border and separated from their handlers, a young woman who discovers their plan causes them to reconsider their actions.

Winner of multiple prizes at the 2005 Berlin Film Festival, and invited to the 2005 Telluride Film Festival and Toronto International Film Festival, the film was written by Hany Abu-Assad ("Ford Transit," "Rana's Wedding") & Bero Beyer and directed by Abu-Assad, and stars Kais Nashef, Ali Suliman, Lubna Azabal.

"PARADISE NOW" is a production of Augustus Film with Lama Films, Razor Film, Lumen Films, Arte France Cinema, Hazazah Film and produced with the support of Nederlands Fonds Voor De Film, Filmstiftung Nordrhein-Westfalen, Eurimages, Medienboard Berlin-Brandenburg, I2I Preparatory Action of the European Community and World Cinema Fund.

If you care, visit this website:
http://wip.warnerbros.com/paradisenow/

Personally, I saw parts of the movie as it's yet to be shown in the place where I live and I think it's really great...

I think they have it where I live or an hour or so away. It looks like a masterpiece of knowledge and understanding for the conflict.

 

[ReBeL]

I think they have it where I live or an hour or so away. It looks like a masterpiece of knowledge and understanding for the conflict.

I hope you can watch it and make a briefing about the movie and your opinion here, if you care...

 

[Juve_Kosova]

I hope you can watch it and make a briefing about the movie and your opinion here, if you care...

I saw the tralier and it really look as a great movie..
I'll be there to watch it as soon as it lands in Denmark...

 

[ReBeL]

I saw the tralier and it really look as a great movie..
I'll be there to watch it as soon as it lands in Denmark...

I hope you'll not regret spending two hours seeing it, brother...

 

[Ian]

To have the right funding and weaponry yes, but we are talking about people who have dont have enough funding as it is.. they barely have enough to eat and whatever they have saved elsewhere can be used on equipment to make homemade bombs which are easily accesible providing you have the sufficient knowledge. As I said earliar if it was as easy as that they would target such places, but its certainly difficult infact as I said its virtually impossible.. and what on earth brought the story that they go and target children.. that certainly aint the case but rather most of the places are usually cafes, and nightclubs.. now are there a lot of children and cafes and nighclubs.. i really dont think so. Targetting children is something which they dont like doing and dont plan to do.. adults is a different matter.

Oh by the way dont get me wrong, I absolutely hate the ide aof suicide bombing, but I dont see them having much of a choice in this case.. the world has remained silent over matters where the palestinians have been oppressed and deprived of there rights, and now they have no choice but to act themselves.. and if the act is regarded as coward.. they so be it.. many regard guerilla warfare itself as coward.. but they regard it as liberation.

There is a clear and definable difference between armed resistance to occupation, and terrorism. Suicide bombing cafe's, buses, and nightclubs; reagrdless of whether there are children there or not, is terrorism. Bombing airfields, ports, power plants, etc. is armed resistance. Objectively, it's hard to have a problem with armed resitance, but terrorism is another story.

The people who blow themselves up and try to take as many jews as possible with them are not freedom fighters. Their actions do not free anyone. They are simply exacting the revenge that they feel entitled to, in the manner prescribed by their culture and religion. You would have to be a bigger fool than I think you are to be under the impression that suicide bombing achieves anything for the Palestinian cause, because it certainly does not.

 

[Ian]

All what was said and you're not convinced by anyway that Israelis do something wrong....

I have said repeatedly that killing in general is wrong. I have said repeatedly that the Israelis are wrong, just as are the Palestinians. The issue arises that I feel that the circle of violence is driven mostly by the Palestinians, but also by neighboring arab countries. I believe that the Israelis have a right to a state, as much as the Palestinians. It is my ascertion that because Israel has acknowleged the necessity of a Palestinian state, that it is the failure of the Palestinians to accept the Israeli state which causes the continued civilian deaths on both sides.

I certainly hope that you don't think that I find no wrong with Israel. It is simply that the wrongs they are accused of do not justify a campaign of terror against their civilians.

 

[Enron]

I hope you can watch it and make a briefing about the movie and your opinion here, if you care...

I will be happy to do that.

 

[Zé Tahir]

There is a clear and definable difference between armed resistance to occupation, and terrorism. Suicide bombing cafe's, buses, and nightclubs; reagrdless of whether there are children there or not, is terrorism. Bombing airfields, ports, power plants, etc. is armed resistance. Objectively, it's hard to have a problem with armed resitance, but terrorism is another story.

The people who blow themselves up and try to take as many jews as possible with them are not freedom fighters. Their actions do not free anyone. They are simply exacting the revenge that they feel entitled to, in the manner prescribed by their culture and religion. You would have to be a bigger fool than I think you are to be under the impression that suicide bombing achieves anything for the Palestinian cause, because it certainly does not.

Again, have you not read the history behind the creation of Israel? Israel was created through the same terrorist acts as the Palestinians are trying right now. Just because it's been over 50 years doesn't mean the world should forget this. I don't blame you for not knowing though, since the media nevershows this.

In a manner prescribed their culture and religion? Hmm...and how old is this culture and religion? Is there something special about 20th Century that radically changed this culture and religion? Does that make any sense? These cultures and religions have existed longer than these events, it's ignorant to make such remarks.

I have said repeatedly that killing in general is wrong. I have said repeatedly that the Israelis are wrong, just as are the Palestinians. The issue arises that I feel that the circle of violence is driven mostly by the Palestinians, but also by neighboring arab countries. I believe that the Israelis have a right to a state, as much as the Palestinians. It is my ascertion that because Israel has acknowleged the necessity of a Palestinian state, that it is the failure of the Palestinians to accept the Israeli state which causes the continued civilian deaths on both sides.

I certainly hope that you don't think that I find no wrong with Israel. It is simply that the wrongs they are accused of do not justify a campaign of terror against their civilians.

So you're asking the Palestinians to be thankful to the Israelis for acknowledging their right to exist, when the very land Israel lies on belongs to them? So I can enter and take over your house and then be "generous" to offer you a room in it...I see no logic in this.

Listen, if you feel that Israel has a right to exist, then please invite them to your home. You wouldn't like it if I invited my guests to stay at your place, that just doesn't make any sense. Please, show the world your hospitality. I'm sure no Arab in the world would mind an Israeli state somewhere in the UK or what ever place you consider home.