A Pathetic democracy!!! (4 Viewers)

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Azzurri7

Pinturicchio
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Dec 16, 2003
72,692
Ian said:
Those pictures are laughable. The first has a Palestinian child in a headlock by and Israeli soldier. I suppose they took him away and shot him? The second is the worst. First of all, the soldier does not have his weapon in firing position. Secondly, he's not even pointing at any of the people, the camera angle is strange. The Third pits Palestinian kids with rocks against an Israeli tank. If the militants of Palestine fought as they should, they could defeat that tank, and if they weren't too busy blowing up cafe's and buses, maybe the kids wouldn't have to throw rocks.

The first Pic....The kid you see in that pic is not even 11years old FFS...he's been sent to jail incase you dont know his story and this 10year old boy has peed in his pants incase you don't happen to watch news but the likes of bbc. I'd really like to see you Ian sorrounded by two soldier knocking your head off and beating you till you suffer. I'd like to see your reaction after that. I'm sure you'll have alot to share with us here.

The second Pic....Do you think It's normal to carry a weapon infront of 3 or 4year old boy??? Would you like your own son while going to school to see such a things at this AGE???? I'm sure not. If you look closer to the parents eyes you'll realize more whether he was pointing at them or not.

The 3rd Pic.....The small kids could defeat the tank:howler:...Indeed. Kids wouldnt have to throw rocks but watch their houses being destroyed ehh???? Logic Ian, Logic.
 

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Jul 12, 2002
5,666
Azzurri7 said:
The first Pic....The kid you see in that pic is not even 11years old FFS...he's been sent to jail incase you dont know his story and this 10year old boy has peed in his pants incase you don't happen to watch news but the likes of bbc. I'd really like to see you Ian sorrounded by two soldier knocking your head off and beating you till you suffer. I'd like to see your reaction after that. I'm sure you'll have alot to share with us here.

The second Pic....Do you think It's normal to carry a weapon infront of 3 or 4year old boy??? Would you like your own son while going to school to see such a things at this AGE???? I'm sure not. If you look closer to the parents eyes you'll realize more whether he was pointing at them or not.

The 3rd Pic.....The small kids could defeat the tank:howler:...Indeed. Kids wouldnt have to throw ricks but watch their houses being destroyed ehh???? Logic Ian, Logic.
Fine. You're right. The Israelis are evil bastards intent on killing all the Palestinians in the most dispicable manner possible. I accept the fact that you may actually be right about that. But, I think that if that is the case, it is only insomuch as the Palestinians are in opposite direction.
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
ReBeL said:
At least you started to learn how to use my words...

But unfortunately, a hopeless case you have...:disagree: :disagree:
Against someone so oblivious to the fact that revenge is not an acceptable motive for killing people and does not disqualify it from being terrorism, I would have a hopeless case.
 

PhRoZeN

Livin with Mediocre
Mar 29, 2006
15,893
Ian said:
Fine. You're right. The Israelis are evil bastards intent on killing all the Palestinians in the most dispicable manner possible. I accept the fact that you may actually be right about that.
Thats the best statement youve said in a while. :faq1:
 

PhRoZeN

Livin with Mediocre
Mar 29, 2006
15,893
Ian said:
Against someone so oblivious to the fact that revenge is not an acceptable motive for killing people, and does not disqualify from being terrorism. That goes for both sides.
Looks like you seem to be ignoring the roots of this conflict.. I have already discussed this in my posts earliar and before you stick to your stubborn arguments please read them and reply.Opression is worse than slaughter.. any human would accept that and thats certainly something which you wouldnt know regardless where you live in europe. Only those who have been afflicted with oppression know the feeling whilst the israelis suffer a few lives maybe a few monhs later whilst the palestinians die on a daily basis half the time from the israeli army whilst the other half the time thanks to the conditions that they live in which so hypocritically the governments you stand by support.
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
PhRoZeN said:
Looks like you seem to be ignoring the roots of this conflict.. I have already discussed this in my posts earliar and before you stick to your stubborn arguments please read them and reply.Opression is worse than slaughter.. any human would accept that and thats certainly something which you wouldnt know regardless where you live in europe. Only those who have been afflicted with oppression know the feeling whilst the israelis suffer a few lives maybe a few monhs later whilst the palestinians die on a daily basis half the time from the israeli army whilst the other half the time thanks to the conditions that they live in which so hypocritically the governments you stand by support.
My only real concern is that there be peace. I believe peace includes two seperate but equal states sharing an economy and capital. I know that there were atrocities on both sides, but taking revenge for those things only takes you further away from a lasting peace. If either side, or both, stopped the killig from their part, then peace could begin.
 

PhRoZeN

Livin with Mediocre
Mar 29, 2006
15,893
Ian said:
My only real concern is that there be peace. I believe peace includes two seperate but equal states sharing an economy and capital. I know that there were atrocities on both sides, but taking revenge for those things only takes you further away from a lasting peace. If either side, or both, stopped the killig from their part, then peace could begin.
Peace will only happen if the world takes a serious approach to this situation to be fair and just. Both parties will obviously feel anti sentiments for each other but its the job of the worlds police to be fair in their support for both nations regardless of who is in charge of them.
 
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ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #370
    Ian said:
    My only real concern is that there be peace. I believe peace includes two seperate but equal states sharing an economy and capital. I know that there were atrocities on both sides, but taking revenge for those things only takes you further away from a lasting peace. If either side, or both, stopped the killig from their part, then peace could begin.
    Ok, let revenge aside...

    What can Israel offer to Palestinians regarding land and refugees??
     
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    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
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  • Thread Starter #371
    Economist tallies swelling cost of Israel to US



    Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person.

    This is an estimate by Thomas Stauffer, a consulting economist in Washington. For decades, his analyses of the Middle East scene have made him a frequent thorn in the side of the Israel lobby.

    For the first time in many years, Mr. Stauffer has tallied the total cost to the US of its backing of Israel in its drawn-out, violent dispute with the Palestinians. So far, he figures, the bill adds up to more than twice the cost of the Vietnam War.

    And now Israel wants more. In a meeting at the White House late last month, Israeli officials made a pitch for $4 billion in additional military aid to defray the rising costs of dealing with the intifada and suicide bombings. They also asked for more than $8 billion in loan guarantees to help the country's recession-bound economy.

    Considering Israel's deep economic troubles, Stauffer doubts the Israel bonds covered by the loan guarantees will ever be repaid. The bonds are likely to be structured so they don't pay interest until they reach maturity. If Stauffer is right, the US would end up paying both principal and interest, perhaps 10 years out.

    Israel's request could be part of a supplemental spending bill that's likely to be passed early next year, perhaps wrapped in with the cost of a war with Iraq.

    Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years.

    Adjusting the official aid to 2001 dollars in purchasing power, Israel has been given $240 billion since 1973, Stauffer reckons. In addition, the US has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel.

    "Consequently, politically, if not administratively, those outlays are part of the total package of support for Israel," argues Stauffer in a lecture on the total costs of US Middle East policy, commissioned by the US Army War College, for a recent conference at the University of Maine.

    These foreign-aid costs are well known. Many Americans would probably say it is money well spent to support a beleagured democracy of some strategic interest. But Stauffer wonders if Americans are aware of the full bill for supporting Israel since some costs, if not hidden, are little known.

    One huge cost is not secret. It is the higher cost of oil and other economic damage to the US after Israel-Arab wars.

    In 1973, for instance, Arab nations attacked Israel in an attempt to win back territories Israel had conquered in the 1967 war. President Nixon resupplied Israel with US arms, triggering the Arab oil embargo against the US.

    That shortfall in oil deliveries kicked off a deep recession. The US lost $420 billion (in 2001 dollars) of output as a result, Stauffer calculates. And a boost in oil prices cost another $450 billion.

    Afraid that Arab nations might use their oil clout again, the US set up a Strategic Petroleum Reserve. That has since cost, conservatively, $134 billion, Stauffer reckons.

    Other US help includes:

    • US Jewish charities and organizations have remitted grants or bought Israel bonds worth $50 billion to $60 billion. Though private in origin, the money is "a net drain" on the United States economy, says Stauffer.

    • The US has already guaranteed $10 billion in commercial loans to Israel, and $600 million in "housing loans." (See editor's note below.) Stauffer expects the US Treasury to cover these.

    • The US has given $2.5 billion to support Israel's Lavi fighter and Arrow missile projects.

    • Israel buys discounted, serviceable "excess" US military equipment. Stauffer says these discounts amount to "several billion dollars" over recent years.

    • Israel uses roughly 40 percent of its $1.8 billion per year in military aid, ostensibly earmarked for purchase of US weapons, to buy Israeli-made hardware. It also has won the right to require the Defense Department or US defense contractors to buy Israeli-made equipment or subsystems, paying 50 to 60 cents on every defense dollar the US gives to Israel.

    US help, financial and technical, has enabled Israel to become a major weapons supplier. Weapons make up almost half of Israel's manufactured exports. US defense contractors often resent the buy-Israel requirements and the extra competition subsidized by US taxpayers.

    • US policy and trade sanctions reduce US exports to the Middle East about $5 billion a year, costing 70,000 or so American jobs, Stauffer estimates. Not requiring Israel to use its US aid to buy American goods, as is usual in foreign aid, costs another 125,000 jobs.

    • Israel has blocked some major US arms sales, such as F-15 fighter aircraft to Saudi Arabia in the mid-1980s. That cost $40 billion over 10 years, says Stauffer.

    Stauffer's list will be controversial. He's been assisted in this research by a number of mostly retired military or diplomatic officials who do not go public for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic if they criticize America's policies toward Israel.

    By David R. Francis
    The Christian Science Monitor

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.htm
     
    Sep 28, 2002
    13,975
    PhRoZeN said:
    Peace will only happen if the world takes a serious approach to this situation to be fair and just. Both parties will obviously feel anti sentiments for each other but its the job of the worlds police to be fair in their support for both nations regardless of who is in charge of them.
    doubt it.
    if palestinians get their land back and have their country there will still be dumbfucks who'll run around blowing civilians saying that jews dont belong there. and you again would go that indeed, jews dont belong there because phillistines were there first, just after the dinosaurs have died out.

    also you claim that westerners are brainwashed by media, cause they only see the news that suit israel. fine, feel free to continue thinking that way. just dont forget that you only seem to see thing from palestinian point of view. no matter what israelis do, there are and will be two countries, and you'll have to deal with that. and blowing up people, like today, won't help. it doesnt matter if its a responsive attack for killing a family few days back. in anyway, this attack hasn't done anything to help your cause.
     
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    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
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  • Thread Starter #374
    Fliakis said:
    doubt it.
    if palestinians get their land back and have their country there will still be dumbfucks who'll run around blowing civilians saying that jews dont belong there. and you again would go that indeed, jews dont belong there because phillistines were there first, just after the dinosaurs have died out.

    also you claim that westerners are brainwashed by media, cause they only show news the news that suite israel. fine, feel free to continue thinking that way. just dont forget that you seem to see thing from palestinian point of view. no matter what israelis do, there are and will be two countries, and you'll have to deal with that. and blowing up people, like today, won't help. it doesnt matter if its a responsive attack for killing a family few days back. in anyway, this attack hasn't done anything to help your cause.
    I won't retaliate after describing the whole people as dumbfucks...

    In the end, you're a moderator here, and I can do nothing to stop you banning me...

    Have fun...
     
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    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
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  • Thread Starter #375
    PhRoZeN said:
    Nice article :tup: very factual and informative.
    We're trying to give them articles from their newspapers to tell them we're not biased...

    The truth should be said...
     

    PhRoZeN

    Livin with Mediocre
    Mar 29, 2006
    15,893
    Fliakis said:
    doubt it.
    if palestinians get their land back and have their country there will still be dumbfucks who'll run around blowing civilians saying that jews dont belong there. and you again would go that indeed, jews dont belong there because phillistines were there first, just after the dinosaurs have died out.
    How can you say that? did that ever happen a few or more decades before the balfour agreement? did that ever happen at times when both of them lived in prosperity. What makes you believe such ridicolous things. The palestinians dont hate the jews to that extent they only hate them because of what they have gone through and rightly understandble.. if you lived a day in palestine you would definetly know. That "dumbfuck" is based on ignorance and very offensive. Also the relationship between the the two religions judaism and muslims has a lot of similarities and theres is nothing wrong in that they are regarded as the people of the book. If you look at how the orthodox jews live amongst some of the palestinians you would certainly be astonished. If you look at that neurtie karta site you would see an article in there which shows how palestinians have treated the orthodox jews in a friendly and hospitable manner. They themselves are witness upon that and if you look at history, then history itself tells you that. So to say they are dumbfucks is totally wrong it comes to show that no matter you may proberly never accept these facts and the whole point of even discussing about this is pointless.. sheer pointless.

    Fliakis said:
    also you claim that westerners are brainwashed by media, cause they only see the news that suit israel. fine, feel free to continue thinking that way. just dont forget that you only seem to see thing from palestinian point of view. no matter what israelis do, there are and will be two countries, and you'll have to deal with that. and blowing up people, like today, won't help. it doesnt matter if its a responsive attack for killing a family few days back. in anyway, this attack hasn't done anything to help your cause.
    I have already proven some of my points as to why I believe they are brainwashed.. Notice I not only watch CNN, BBC, SKY news here in UK but I also read news online regarding the other side.. therefore I look at both stories and its clear to see who is right. I never said im in support of blowing up infact any palestinian or rather any muslim would certainly agree that doing suicide bombing is the last resort its certainly something which shouldnt be taken lightly. Its unfortunate that yes there are some who may goto extremes but who led these people to that path? its no other than our own governments. I have also shown in this debate that I have that I am more willing to accept if I make any mistakes and show good friendly hospitality yes even to an israeli and likewise many palestinians do, infact TAL himself said earliar that his a witness upon that. Although there are many people trying build bridges the fact its the bridges that are blown so easily by the israeli government when they oppress the civilians and treat them as bad as what the black people of south africa used to get treated during apartheid.

    As you are scottish and you may now and then pop in UK, then the two channels which show unbiased news are Channel 4 News at 7, and also the newsnight. They have shown documentaries of how palestinians live in there everyday life. The reality is I aint saying that if you live in the west you would definetly be biased towards the palestinian issue if that really was the case then I would most obviously not be typing this. The reality is that those channels that make the big difference are the ones that show such news thats what i meant by mainstream media. Notice once again the word "main".
     
    May 4, 2004
    11,622
    One thing i dont understand is how Israel dosent give a shit what other countrys says about the wall..

    I mean.. It is against the Human Rights.. But still there have been no action against Israel from the other countrys.. Thats has to be because you cant tell a country that is allied with the US, what they are allowed to do and not to do...
    They will do it, and as long as they got USA on there back they dont give a shit what other countrys say or thinks..

    Anyway, here are some links to some great aricels.. (sorry if they already been showen from other members)


    http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/History_June2002.htm

    Effect of Jewish immigrants on indigenous Palestinian population - between 1870 and 1946 the Jewish population in Palestine increased from 2% to 35%.

    An Unviable State“Is there a state without contiguity? Is there a state without an army? Is there a state that does not control its own borders? Is there a state that does not control its own water resources and airspace? I am telling you: there is no such state."
    Benjamin Netanyahu
     
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