A Letter From J1897.COM to Cobolli (3 Viewers)

[Snoop]

I have read some of the posts here, and I don't agree with Isha about them, I totally understand why Gigli didn't offer a job for Bettega, and he has the right for that, that doesn't mean that he is disrespecting Bettega, he wants to clean the board from the ugly past (no matter how much you deny it), and I support him for this..


But for Gigli, he seems a clean dude, apologizing for Bologna match deserves some respect, I felt the same way when we had the 2 extra points that way..

and about the scudetti, even thou if they were won on the pitch by the players' hard work, but you can't ignore the ugly thing Moggi and co did to ensure these two titles (if they are not more than that, we never know). It is crazy to call all these as "defending the club". This is not the way you defend your club you know?

Back to Gigli, he still didn't won my (everyone's) trust yet, but I don't think he is doing harm for the club, give the dude some time. But sure the Transfer campaign is worrying me, we will wait and see ..

 

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[Marc]

I have read some of the posts here, and I don't agree with Isha about them, I totally understand why Gigli didn't offer a job for Bettega, and he has the right for that, that doesn't mean that he is disrespecting Bettega, he wants to clean the board from the ugly past (no matter how much you deny it), and I support him for this..


But for Gigli, he seems a clean dude, apologizing for Bologna match deserves some respect, I felt the same way when we had the 2 extra points that way..

and about the scudetti, even thou if they were won on the pitch by the players' hard work, but you can't ignore the ugly thing Moggi and co did to ensure these two titles (if they are not more than that, we never know). It is crazy to call all these as "defending the club". This is not the way you defend your club you know?

Back to Gigli, he still didn't won my (everyone's) trust yet, but I don't think he is doing harm for the club, give the dude some time. But sure the Transfer campaign is worrying me, we will wait and see ..

 

[Respaul]

Well, until YOU can enlighten everyone here with what you have said you've known for the past 5 or 6 months, then I guess myself, Elisa, and many others here will have to rely on the "worthless snipets" that we get from different sources

If you know so much, Paulie, then PLEASE enlighten us all, instead of acting like you know everything, and proving nothing

What I’ve said I know... Interesting, Please show me where I’ve said anything on this trial at any point... I haven’t!

All I have ever said on this is one simple fact... You are judging on something you do not have any details of... So how can you judge?

If nothing of the case has been publicly divulged how in hell you can tell people what happened... How can you slag people off when in reality you don’t know what has been said or done... I've never professed to know everything on this issue and have never commented on it.

You're insulted by me saying you are basing everything on snippets and opinions... Well I’m sorry but it’s true

Unlike other cases this one has not been carried out in front of open doors but due to legalities, well and truly shut and bolted ones with large penalties up for anyone that that says too much. No journalist (and yes that includes a certain j1897 member whose words people hang on like he's the fucking messiah (also a personal friend)) is going to reveal any real details at this time (it’s not worth the penalties).

They offer just plain opinions on various aspects of publicly available details... No more

You don’t like that, bad luck, it’s the way it is, the fact of the matter.
So whether you like it or not, you can offer only opinions on half truths, not facts or even opinion based on facts... So how can you so vehemently say these people did wrong, acted badly on the clubs behalf etc?


Not to mention that I know for a fact that you personally do not fully understand the trial process, the appeal process or indeed the possible penalties of said appeal process, both lose and indeed win... Yes, that’s right the penalties if we win at certain levels of appeal are greater than the initial punishment... Look it up, that’s all info that is easy to find and readily available...

…and no Vinni, I’m not telling you I know this or that, I’m simply saying you shouldn’t attack those that disagree with your viewpoint on this subject , being that you yourself are merely offering an opinion with no facts to back up said opinion…


For fucks sake, half the world actually thinks this case is about match fixing… rather than simply a bit of unethical practice, underhanded tactics and the breaking of two foggy articles.

This misdemeanor in itself has bred most of these inaccurate and irrelevant arguments we see across all platforms today…

Due to slights like these we see magistrates, lawyers etc having to make statements that there was no evidence of said match fixing, then people use those statements as proof of our innocence even though they and the subject at hand have no bearing on the actual case , the evidence produced or indeed the outcome reached.

It’s a minefield of a case with inaccuracies at every corner.

As for Elisa… Why are you bringing her into this…? I’ve never commented on her…

She’s a different kettle to you altogether, whilst you strongly attack people for disagreeing with you even though you yourself have no actual argument on this subject … She collates the various information she finds and forms it into a passionate opinion. She doesn’t feed it to us as the only answer, but merely an opinion formed from the information she has found (and for that matter posted here for you all). Truth, half-truth or complete fallacy she’s not, as far as I see, forcing those opinions on anyone.

 

[ReBeL]

I have read some of the posts here, and I don't agree with Isha about them, I totally understand why Gigli didn't offer a job for Bettega, and he has the right for that, that doesn't mean that he is disrespecting Bettega, he wants to clean the board from the ugly past (no matter how much you deny it), and I support him for this..


But for Gigli, he seems a clean dude, apologizing for Bologna match deserves some respect, I felt the same way when we had the 2 extra points that way..

and about the scudetti, even thou if they were won on the pitch by the players' hard work, but you can't ignore the ugly thing Moggi and co did to ensure these two titles (if they are not more than that, we never know). It is crazy to call all these as "defending the club". This is not the way you defend your club you know?

Back to Gigli, he still didn't won my (everyone's) trust yet, but I don't think he is doing harm for the club, give the dude some time. But sure the Transfer campaign is worrying me, we will wait and see ..

Please guide me to any occasion in the world when anybody in any club apologized for "MAYBE" scoring a "PHANTOM" goal...

I don't say that he made wrong when he apologized, but again we have to wake up and look around...

We're not playing in "Utopia" football league...

We're playing in the most corrupt league in the World...

When you behave good when everybody else behaves good, this is the perfect thing...

When you behave good when everybody else behaves very bad, then sorry, but you can't be anybody but a symbol for lameness...

 

[Marc]

What I’ve said I know... Interesting, Please show me where I’ve said anything on this trial at any point... I haven’t!

All I have ever said on this is one simple fact... You are judging on something you do not have any details of... So how can you judge?

If nothing of the case has been publicly divulged how in hell you can tell people what happened... How can you slag people off when in reality you don’t know what has been said or done... I've never professed to know everything on this issue and have never commented on it.

You're insulted by me saying you are basing everything on snippets and opinions... Well I’m sorry but it’s true

Unlike other cases this one has not been carried out in front of open doors but due to legalities, well and truly shut and bolted ones with large penalties up for anyone that that says too much. No journalist (and yes that includes a certain j1897 member whose words people hang on like he's the fucking messiah (also a personal friend)) is going to reveal any real details at this time (it’s not worth the penalties).

They offer just plain opinions on various aspects of publicly available details... No more

You don’t like that, bad luck, it’s the way it is, the fact of the matter.
So whether you like it or not, you can offer only opinions on half truths, not facts or even opinion based on facts... So how can you so vehemently say these people did wrong, acted badly on the clubs behalf etc?


Not to mention that I know for a fact that you personally do not fully understand the trial process, the appeal process or indeed the possible penalties of said appeal process, both lose and indeed win... Yes, that’s right the penalties if we win at certain levels of appeal are greater than the initial punishment... Look it up, that’s all info that is easy to find and readily available...

…and no Vinni, I’m not telling you I know this or that, I’m simply saying you shouldn’t attack those that disagree with your viewpoint on this subject , being that you yourself are merely offering an opinion with no facts to back up said opinion…


For fucks sake, half the world actually thinks this case is about match fixing… rather than simply a bit of unethical practice, underhanded tactics and the breaking of two foggy articles.

This misdemeanor in itself has bred most of these inaccurate and irrelevant arguments we see across all platforms today…

Due to slights like these we see magistrates, lawyers etc having to make statements that there was no evidence of said match fixing, then people use those statements as proof of our innocence even though they and the subject at hand have no bearing on the actual case , the evidence produced or indeed the outcome reached.

It’s a minefield of a case with inaccuracies at every corner.

As for Elisa… Why are you bringing her into this…? I’ve never commented on her…

She’s a different kettle to you altogether, whilst you strongly attack people for disagreeing with you even though you yourself have no actual argument on this subject … She collates the various information she finds and forms it into a passionate opinion. She doesn’t feed it to us as the only answer, but merely an opinion formed from the information she has found (and for that matter posted here for you all). Truth, half-truth or complete fallacy she’s not, as far as I see, forcing those opinions on anyone.

This post should shut a lot of mouths... Fantastic!

 

[JCK]

This post should shut a lot of mouths... Fantastic!

It always takes Respaul to shut some mouths up

 

[ReBeL]

This post should shut a lot of mouths... Fantastic!

I don't know how he shuts anybody's mouth...

It is the type of posts which could go for pages and pages without giving any idea...

Briefly, it was like this:

"You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand."

 

[JCK]

I looked to see where he said that he won't say it but I didn't find it

 

[Marc]

I don't know how he shuts anybody's mouth...

It is the type of posts which could go for pages and pages without giving any idea...

Briefly, it was like this:

"You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand."

The point is none of us doesn´t know the real truth and we shouldn´t talk crap about our Board´s behaviour cause we don´t know the real situation and we shouldn´t argue and waste pages and constantly repeat ourselves on this matters.

 

[Respaul]

I don't know how he shuts anybody's mouth...

It is the type of posts which could go for pages and pages without giving any idea...

Briefly, it was like this:

"You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand."

oh please... where have i said i know anything about this... Oh thats right... I didnt... I simply pointed out that all of you people slagging off those that disagree with you and saying you are right are merely giving opinions... There are virtually no facts publicly available.. that my friend is a fact...

Those opinions you so strongly put out which have no factual basis are of exactly the same value of those that read the same halftruths and come to the opposite conclusion... Both have little factual basis.. yet you lead us to believe your views are stronger and act as if they are correct... Is that so hard to grasp


You and the likes of vinni are the ones saying you know something and telling people they are wrong yet you can never back anything you say up with facts.

You have no facts to back up what you say, you have no idea what went on in the courtroom or the appeals, jus controlled snippets from journalists, or fanboys rants yet that apparently makes you an authority... Snippets from a media that you yourself so often tell us are all liars and how the world is brainwashed by them... yet here, when its all you have, they are the voice of all things true and accurate... listen to yourself!


frankly the scandal is old news, people need to get the fuck over it.

 

[Snoop]

Please guide me to any occasion in the world when anybody in any club apologized for "MAYBE" scoring a "PHANTOM" goal...

I don't say that he made wrong when he apologized, but again we have to wake up and look around...

We're not playing in "Utopia" football league...

We're playing in the most corrupt league in the World...

When you behave good when everybody else behaves good, this is the perfect thing...

When you behave good when everybody else behaves very bad, then sorry, but you can't be anybody but a symbol for lameness...

so because the league is corrupt as you claim, so he should go on TV and act like a fool and say it was 100% leagal goal? is that your ethic all about??

denying that goal won't help you with anything, but admiting it and feeling sorry about it? people will respect you for that, this is how you make friends, this is what fair play is all about. we didn't deserve that goal and the two points, and his reaction made me proud, because I know alot of people barks at tv when a wrong decision decided against their team, and if they lost points because of it, isn't it hypocrite to shut and hide when a wrong decision decided against your team?

 

[Vinman]

I don't know how he shuts anybody's mouth...

It is the type of posts which could go for pages and pages without giving any idea...

Briefly, it was like this:

"You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand. You all don't know anything about the scandal. I know everything about it, but I won't say it because you won't understand."

thanks...you saved me a ton of time typing !!!

oh please... where have i said i know anything about this... Oh thats right... I didnt... I simply pointed out that all of you people slagging off those that disagree with you and saying you are right are merely giving opinions... There are virtually no facts publicly available.. that my friend is a fact...

so you know as much as the rest of us ??

lets clear one thing up here, Paul...my original post was directed towards Dominic, who says none of us understand why we dislike Gigli.....unless the press lies about the things that comes out of his mouth, as well as Zaccone's , then I think myself and others have PLENTY of reason not to like him, or this new management team.

The trial aside, isnt much of what Elisa wrote in her post correct ?? Did Tardelli try to make Neddy look like an idiot on an Italian tv program ?? Did Zaccone tell the media that we deserved C, when we were in a battle to stay in A ?? Did Gigli promise Juve fans everywhere that we would fight to the end, and take our case to TAR ?? I dont have to be an Italian law major like yourself to be angry at what has come out in the press in the past 5 or 6 months regarding this new management team....but if you can refute the claims made by the press with some "inside" information, then by all means, please do this forum a great service by giving us the correct information

Until then, if all you have said is correct, and no one here really knows whats going on, and have little chance of finding out the truth, then I guess this thread is moot, and should be closed

 

[isha00]

You are right, Paul, I didn't back up what I wrote with anything. It's just that, being the documents I have super-long and all in Italian, the thought of posting them didn't really cross my mind, 'cause I didn't think anyone could be really interested on them. My bad.

Ok, so:

Most of what I wrote are things I saw with my own eyes or heard with my own ears. I guess you have to trust my word on those.

As for the verdict, here is the complete document: http://www.giulemanidallajuve.com/download/sentenza2.pdf I advise to read page 60-something. It's very interesting as it contains the part I quoted (about how we influenced the standings without influencing neither results nor the matches themselves. It's really not clear how, but Moggi sure was a genius). It also says how they got to the infraction of the ex 6th article (the one that got us relegated). It clearly says that they made up a new illicit behavior, that could make the infractions of the 1rst article (only about fair play, usually sanctioned just with fines or with some points deduction at the most) become an infraction of the 6th article. Sandulli used the procedure: 1+1+1+1+1+1=6. Nice.
Of course in this verdict you can also read that the refs suspected of having "worked" to agevolate Juventus were found innocent.
This one is the last verdict, cause the 3rd stage of judice was eliminated by Guido Rossi as soon as he became FIGC commissar.

Here is also the link to the first verdict (B, -30) but its relevance is relative.
http://www.giulemanidallajuve.com/download/Sentenza.pdf

Then I talked about the appeal to tar. I have the integral version saved on my computer (it was provided by Zaccone himself in August): it's really, really interesting and I think that every Juventino that understands Italian should have a chance to read it. It also talks about how the ordinary justice had already investigated on Moggi&co. and how the case was archived because nothing could lead to a real suspect that the investigated persons were leading illicit behaviors of any kind. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=32OX83HY


What else? Yeah, Cobolli is a liquidator. You can find a lot about this in internet, I chose only one article, about when he completed the selling of "Rinsacente" one of the companies of the Ifil group. http://www.informaconsumatori.it/rassegne.php?cod=3470&PHPSESSID=6d2cd979d363c7d59fd551672dab

The fact that Montezeomlo and Giraudo didn't exactly love each other was known long before of all this mess and they didn't make a secret of it. Exactly as Montezemolo said he hasn't a good relationship with Della Valle, when they were both guests at Porta a Porta.

Recoba's false documents and stolen driving license is something Oriali was declared guilty of this May by the ordinary justice. The punishments (2 years of prison) became nothing more than a fine.
Facchetti knew about what Telecom was organizing. Of course he knew, after all we have proof that even Mancini knew (do you remember those words said to Moggi, to make him shut up?).

As for Telecom, we have at the moment the Intercettopoli scandal going on. Tavaroli (one of the heads of the telecom organization) is already in jail and he said he referred about the whole thing to Carlo Buora, member of the Telecom board. Interesting is also to notice that Telecom's board really resembles to Inter's one. So, what Telecom knew, Inter knew too:

The president of Telecom was Marco Tronchetti Provera (stakeholder, fan and member of the Inter board), later substituted by Guido Rossi (ex member of the Inter board);
The esecutive vice president is Carlo Orazio Buora (vicepresident Inter);
One of the members of the board is a certain Massimo Moratti (Inter’s owner).

What else, what else... I don't know, but if I forgot something let me know

 

[AngelaL]

Super posts Elisa! I'd +rep you, but I can't (too soon after last +rep).

Come on guys/gals! Everyone's entitled to their opinion & christmas is not the time for acrimony. Pax, eh?

 

[Respaul]

You are right, Paul, I didn't back up what I wrote with anything. It's just that, being the documents I have super-long and all in Italian, the thought of posting them didn't really cross my mind, 'cause I didn't think anyone could be really interested on them. My bad.

Ok, so:

Thats what you have... Thats a verdict, it means nothing... Unless you have fully detailed transcripts of the trial and the appeals, listing all evidence, charges and responses in their entirety you cannot know what actually went on within those walls or the process leading to it and since...

A verdict is just that... a verdict, no more, no less...

It shows you know the outcome, not the details or the process...

As for your bits on gigli, that wasnt commented on by me.

You have a far better basis for opinion than most here, but please dont try and tell me you know what went on during the trial due to that...

Not exactly sure how you were dragged into trhis anyway, this wasnt about your posts

 

[Respaul]

thanks...you saved me a ton of time typing !!!

That saved you a ton of typing?
I could have rounded that post up for you much quicker....

I (vinni) either cannot or do not bother to read peoples posts prior to replying to them, but rather base my reply on assumptions i make of the poster in question...

There much simpler...

so you know as much as the rest of us ??

Never commented either way... Its not important or is it my place to say one way or the other...

I purely commented on your bullying people for not agreeing with you when you personally do not have a full grasp of the facts... What i do or do not know is irrelevant.

lets clear one thing up here, Paul...my original post was directed towards Dominic, who says none of us understand why we dislike Gigli.....unless the press lies about the things that comes out of his mouth, as well as Zaccone's , then I think myself and others have PLENTY of reason not to like him, or this new management team.

To a degree thats fair point, but the fact is you do attack people that dont agree with you whether they are as much or even more in tune with the facts than you are.

You also say trial aside, but then most of your argument against gigli is based around not going to tar and as such the trial itself, which you have indeed openly admitted to not being fully aware of the facts of...

The trial aside, isnt much of what Elisa wrote in her post correct ?? Did Tardelli try to make Neddy look like an idiot on an Italian tv program ?? Did Zaccone tell the media that we deserved C, when we were in a battle to stay in A ?? Did Gigli promise Juve fans everywhere that we would fight to the end, and take our case to TAR ??

I never commented on elisa's post... might do later, but its not relevant to the subject at hand.


I'm sure you can find better things to have a go at me for than this....

I know... Maybe telling jack and our other lebanese friends whats going on in their country even though i've probably never even been there...

... Oh No, that wasnt me was it... (rather others that like to throw off at me for making a completely just post )

Dont know why you need to add your little 'my friend paul' bit... It wasnt needed and this discussion has no bearing on anything else...

 

[Dominic]

hmm, you're right...

there is nothing but a bunch of idiots on this site, who cannot read the news, or have any understanding of whats going on

I did not mean it that condescending, but it's not all too far from the truth.

 

[Vinman]

That saved you a ton of typing?
I could have rounded that post up for you much quicker....

I (vinni) either cannot or do not bother to read peoples posts prior to replying to them, but rather base my reply on assumptions i make of the poster in question...

There much simpler...






Never commented either way... Its not important or is it my place to say one way or the other...

I purely commented on your bullying people for not agreeing with you when you personally do not have a full grasp of the facts... What i do or do not know is irrelevant.




To a degree thats fair point, but the fact is you do attack people that dont agree with you whether they are as much or even more in tune with the facts than you are.

You also say trial aside, but then most of your argument against gigli is based around not going to tar and as such the trial itself, which you have indeed openly admitted to not being fully aware of the facts of...



I never commented on elisa's post... might do later, but its not relevant to the subject at hand.


I'm sure you can find better things to have a go at me for than this....

I know... Maybe telling jack and our other lebanese friends whats going on in their country even though i've probably never even been there...

... Oh No, that wasnt me was it... (rather others that like to throw off at me for making a completely just post )

Dont know why you need to add your little 'my friend paul' bit... It wasnt needed and this discussion has no bearing on anything else...

I READ what ReBeL had to say, and agreed...dont know what you are referring to or implying

I read everyones posts word for word (yes, even Cxyta's !!)

you keep referring to the fact that I attack people, but, as I said in a previous post, I commented on what Dom said, which many here could find offensive (I dont even think he was referring to me in that post), so excuse me for sticking up for others

You make a point with having a go at people who dont agree with you as well...how about that new kid Juve-Adam, who you had a go at a few weeks ago ?? There are many others as well...so stop being such a hypocrite

 

[isha00]

Thats what you have... Thats a verdict, it means nothing... Unless you have fully detailed transcripts of the trial and the appeals, listing all evidence, charges and responses in their entirety you cannot know what actually went on within those walls or the process leading to it and since...

A verdict is just that... a verdict, no more, no less...

It shows you know the outcome, not the details or the process...

As for your bits on gigli, that wasnt commented on by me.

You have a far better basis for opinion than most here, but please dont try and tell me you know what went on during the trial due to that...

Not exactly sure how you were dragged into trhis anyway, this wasnt about your posts

A part from the fact that I backed everything I wrote up, let's enter in this new matter:

How can you say that the verdict doesn't mean anything? They are the conclusions of the people who sent us in B and if you spent some time reading them, you'd notice that they didn't manage to find any illicit behavior. Nothing. There's no art.6 broken. It's them stating it, not me. Isn't this enough to wake some doubts?
Anyway, the charges are included in the verdict, as they usually are, and we don't know the responses, other than the fact that each charged person had a total of *10* minutes to defend themselves and didn't have the right to present testimonies to the court. I guess you can imagine these defences, right?---> The so called evidence (that you can find here http://www.panorama.it/panorama/statici/homegenerale/img/speciali/Relazione_Aprile05.pdf and here http://www.panorama.it/panorama/statici/homegenerale/img/speciali/Relazione_Novembre05.pdf ) was not only based on nothing (and you'll see it), but was also *illegal*.
By the way, the first step would be to take the last 2 documents I posted (written by carabinieri) and reading them with the stats of the matches of the 2004-05 season. Referees, yellows given and everything: Bergamo never did what Moggi never really asked. There's no wonder why the ordinary justice archived the case.

Btw, this is the reason why I felt as dragged in all of this:

All, you or isha for that matter base your opinions on is worthless snippets thrown out by the media or peoples opinions they have garnered from said snippets... No more

I actually read these hundreds of pages, I spent an entire summer reading this, reading certain articles of the Italian penal code (and of the constitution), looking at the backgrounds of the people involved and watching carefully the actions of our board. And yeah, I read also opinions, with a critical mind, of course, but not the ones you can find in bars, but the ones of the maximum experts in various sectors we have in Italy. The president of the supreme court, to make an example, but also the sportive judge of the calcio scandal of the '80s, an ex president of the Republic, many others..

I have seen a lot of this and it doesn't feel nice to know that people like me have gathered their information from worthless snippets thrown out by the media :wink:
I don't like to talk BS, especially not about this. If I said what I said, it was because I had documents confirming it was true. From Tardelli's question to Nedved to the fact that the verdict states we were relegated not because someone broke the 6th article (as it should have been), but because we have broken the 1rst one a couple of times. And, even though we had every right to appeal (and also the said appeal already prepared), the board didn't move a finger and this resulted in saying bye bye to the richest sponsor anyone ever had. Isn't this true?

 

[Vinman]

A part from the fact that I backed everything I wrote up, let's enter in this new matter:

How can you say that the verdict doesn't mean anything? They are the conclusions of the people who sent us in B and if you spent some time reading them, you'd notice that they didn't manage to find any illicit behavior. Nothing. There's no art.6 broken. It's them stating it, not me. Isn't this enough to wake some doubts?
Anyway, the charges are included in the verdict, as they usually are, and we don't know the responses, other than the fact that each charged person had a total of *10* minutes to defend themselves and didn't have the right to present testimonies to the court. I guess you can imagine these defences, right?---> The so called evidence (that you can find here http://www.panorama.it/panorama/statici/homegenerale/img/speciali/Relazione_Aprile05.pdf and here http://www.panorama.it/panorama/statici/homegenerale/img/speciali/Relazione_Novembre05.pdf ) was not only based on nothing (and you'll see it), but was also *illegal*.
By the way, the first step would be to take the last 2 documents I posted (written by carabinieri) and reading them with the stats of the matches of the 2004-05 season. Referees, yellows given and everything: Bergamo never did what Moggi never really asked. There's no wonder why the ordinary justice archived the case.

Btw, this is the reason why I felt as dragged in all of this:



I actually read these hundreds of pages, I spent an entire summer reading this, reading certain articles of the Italian penal code (and of the constitution), looking at the backgrounds of the people involved and watching carefully the actions of our board. And yeah, I read also opinions, with a critical mind, of course, but not the ones you can find in bars, but the ones of the maximum experts in various sectors we have in Italy. The president of the supreme court, to make an example, but also the sportive judge of the calcio scandal of the '80s, an ex president of the Republic, many others..

I have seen a lot of this and it doesn't feel nice to know that people like me have gathered their information from worthless snippets thrown out by the media :wink:
I don't like to talk BS, especially not about this. If I said what I said, it was because I had documents confirming it was true. From Tardelli's question to Nedved to the fact that the verdict states we were relegated not because someone broke the 6th article (as it should have been), but because we have broken the 1rst one a couple of times. And, even though we had every right to appeal (and also the said appeal already prepared), the board didn't move a finger. Isn't this true?

might as well drop it Elisa..

"Sir Paul" is never wrong