Zeitgeist, the Movie (4 Viewers)

[Seven]

Download both.Being religious or not is irrelevant.Both documentaries are pretty interesting.

It is if you believe in christianity as such. If you however believe it is important to have some sort of holy moment in the dark of winter, without linking it to excessive symbols you'll like it.

It's where most religions go wrong I suppose.

 

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[Bjerknes]

All of the first civilizations went by astrology because that's all they had. I don't know why that would be so astounding..

 

[Seven]

Didnt think Jesus was more then a symbol, not a christian so the validity of Jesus as the son of God is not farfetched at all for me. But SOURCE of this all with the religion part, not just about Jesus, but astrology and how distinctively repetetive the story elements have been throughout the history of mankind, even for someone who has heard of this before as I said, is still quite extremely astounding in how they break it down.

Not really about Jesus being real, but the significance of astrology.

Yes, it does a good job. But my point is that even I understand why people fabricate religions. They see certain things and certain phenomena and want to link them to a greater myth. Now I believe it is useless to celebrate that myth, but it might have some sense to see the importance of said phenomena.

 

[swag]

The religious stuff in there is so old hat, though. New to a lot of people, maybe. But I wish it drew more out about the real curious miracle of how humanity across the world and across civilizations over time seem to have been "programmed" with an affinity for similar stories. There's something innate to the human experience and human existence that is locked into that, which makes the subject a lot more fascinating at a meta level. That is the question worth answering.

As for the 9/11 stuff, leave it to Americans to think that 9/11 was the most defining moment in human history over the past few centuries. :rolleyes2 That crap still don't wash with me.

 

[Seven]

The religious stuff in there is so old hat, though. New to a lot of people, maybe. But I wish it drew more out about the real curious miracle of how humanity across the world and across civilizations over time seem to have been "programmed" with an affinity for similar stories. There's something innate to the human experience and human existence that is locked into that, which makes the subject a lot more fascinating at a meta level.

As for the 9/11 stuff, leave it to Americans to think that 9/11 was the most defining moment in human history over the past few centuries. :rolleyes2 That crap still don't wash with me.

You must be one of the dumbest men I have ever met. If you don't understand why the end of December is a period of importance to people, you're never going to be able to say anything remotely intelligent about the subject. The "miracle" is not curious at all FFS.

 

[Bjerknes]

The emphasis on 9/11 is because that's what our generation has lived through. Nobody that has lived through Pearl Harbor would watch this film, so there is no need to analyze it in great detail. Our generation now has to endure another era of fear and trivial use of human activity because of one suspicious, disastrous event that really defines the times of the United States of America.

And that's whether you like that fact or not, Greg.

 

[swag]

You must be one of the dumbest men I have ever met. If you don't understand why the end of December is a period of importance to people, you're never going to be able to say anything remotely intelligent about the subject. The "miracle" is not curious at all FFS.

The shame about you, Seven, is that you are so blinded by your own cynicism that you fail to see the real questions to answer. You stop the journey at the point of proving your anti-religious machismo and put it to bed. When in fact, the reason why everything from the creation myths to the winter solstice reverberate in aboriginal Australia to 4,000-B.C. Sumeria to modern day monotheism is packed with biological and scientific questions that you dismiss before even asking wtf is it this way to begin with.

Your smugness prevents you from learning anything, Seven. The fact that all these stories are rip-offs is the beginning, not the end, of the inquisition.

 

[Osman]

You must be one of the dumbest men I have ever met. If you don't understand why the end of December is a period of importance to people, you're never going to be able to say anything remotely intelligent about the subject. The "miracle" is not curious at all FFS.

Now now, I know you are set in your peculiar ways. But you could have explained (or reminded him) how its about the cycles of the sun (solstices) and its dawning cycles later on became symbols for religions (the duality of it, the dark winter, and it defied the set course of setting, and rising to brighten up the dark wintet etc), as they put...instead of simply call him the dumbest man you have ever met, right?

But even then...Dont think swag missed the documentaries significance with the dark winter solstice, but I think he is just pointing out how corious it is that, throughout the history of us humans from the beginning to now, how these civilizations that have millenias between eachother and not necessarily didnt rip off eachother, but still all ripped off the same concept. Of how it has to do with us as human in our nature, to seek after such and came to these same grand symbolic conclusions to things (due to sharing the same need and yearning for such).

 

[swag]

The emphasis on 9/11 is because that's what our generation has lived through. Nobody that has lived through Pearl Harbor would watch this film, so there is no need to analyze it in great detail. Our generation now has to endure another era of fear and trivial use of human activity because of one suspicious, disastrous event that really defines the times of the United States of America.

And that's whether you like that fact or not, Greg.

But 9/11 is so ethnocentric, Andy. Not to diminish the horrors of that event. But just try telling a family who had witnessed their numbers decimated by Pol Pot in Cambodia about the significance of 9/11 to their existence.

 

[Seven]

The shame about you, Seven, is that you are so blinded by your own cynicism that you fail to see the real questions to answer. You stop the journey at the point of proving your anti-religious machismo and put it to bed. When in fact, the reason why everything from the creation myths to the winter solstice reverberate in aboriginal Australia to 4,000-B.C. Sumeria to modern day monotheism is packed with biological and scientific questions that you dismiss before even asking wtf is it this way to begin with.

Your smugness prevents you from learning anything, Seven. The fact that all these stories are rip-offs is the beginning, not the end, of the inquisition.

Which "real" questions? Let's ask ourselves a "real" question:

if almost all myths focus on the last days of December (well, it depends on where you live I suppose and it's the very reason why Christmas in Australia must be retarded) as days of importance, we can assume this is because those are the days in which we see little sunlight. The real question would then be why we focus so much on the sun, what is it that makes the sun so important to all people?

Do I really have to answer this one for you, Greg? Do I really?

 

[Seven]

Now now, I know you are set in your peculiar ways. But you could have explained (or reminded him) how its about the cycles of the sun (solstices) and its dawning cycles later on became symbols for religions (the duality of it, the dark winter, and it defied the set course of setting, and rising to brighten up the dark wintet etc), as they put...instead of simply call him the dumbest man you have ever met, right?

He's seen the movie. He knows. And he should have known before he saw the movie as well.

 

[Bjerknes]

But 9/11 is so ethnocentric, Andy. Not to diminish the horrors of that event. But just try telling a family who had witnessed their numbers decimated by Pol Pot in Cambodia about the significance of 9/11 to their existence.

Well, it all stems from the same thing, doesn't it?

And again, the movie was geared towards people of my generation. Before they begin to understand how the rest of the world works, they need to take off the ball and chain that holds them back. They need to understand how their own world works, their own niche. Once they begin to understand the plagues that go under their nose in their own environment, they can understand how those of the rest of the world feel.

 

[Osman]

He's seen the movie. He knows. And he should have known before he saw the movie as well.

Are you interested in discussing with other people, or just judging them as fools who should know better, no matter what? Just corious. Because its a weird mentality and approach you have to things, when you say things like the bolded part.

P.S Edited the last post, of what I think swag was hinting at in that post, not that he necessarily missed the explanation of the movie regarding the winter soltices.

 

[swag]

Which "real" questions? Let's ask ourselves a "real" question:

if almost all myths focus on the last days of December (well, it depends on where you live I suppose and it's the very reason why Christmas in Australia must be retarded) as days of importance, we can assume this is because those are the days in which we see little sunlight. The real question would then be why we focus so much on the sun, what is it that makes the sun so important to all people?

Do I really have to answer this one for you, Greg? Do I really?

OK, I see what you're getting at here. The dark/light, sun/moon, cold/warm, life/death stories are plentiful and have different expressions. But they are hardly "almost all myths".

For example, the life/death story of Christ's crucifixion and the impalement of the Sumerian god Inaana (3,000 years prior) have massive parallels but nothing to do with December's last days. Sure, they both deal with resurrection, but neither is celebrated in late December nor are they associated with the equinox other than a story parallel.

To harp on about just the December stories is a no-brainer and offers little info. But to ignore the parallel stories independent of the equinox myths cuts out everything that goes beyond obvious causation. That's where the evidence of correlation goes beyond identifying a few obvious celestial pointers and into "how the %$#$ did these people come up with the same stories?"

 

[Seven]

The reason people have myths that refer to the same things is that those things are important to all people. Regardless of what I might think about anything else, the sun is important to me and so is water. Whether I'm in 20 000 B.C. or in 2008, I'm going to fabricate a myth around the sun.

 

[swag]

The sun is a no-brainer as a shared human experience fundamental to life. The crucifixion/impalement story, for example, isn't as easy to figure out why it has resonated as it has.

 

[Bjerknes]

It's trying to offer an explanation... a doomed one.

 

[Alen]

What I don't understand though is how some people see Zeitgeist and are surprised. Sure, it does a good job on explaining a couple of theories, but really, if you are capable to think for yourself you reach the same conclusions. You'd have to be an utter idiot to think Jesus was real and not merely a symbol.

Yes, but you're very well educated, you read a lot about the subject and you have the basics to make comparisons, to ask the right questions, to notice an error.
Not everyone knows as much as you and not everyone is interested in this subject as much as you are.

I reached the same conclusions as you (about the religion part) long time ago, but it has a lot to do with my studies and my work.
But i could never reach the same conclusions as they did about the US economy or world economy (something Andy probably did with ease) simply because my knowledge about the subject is very limited.

 

[Osman]

From a historic point of view, is the rest of the documentary as interesting as the religion part is Alen?

 

[Alen]

From a historic point of view, is the rest of the documentary as interesting as the religion part is Alen?

To me it wasn't.
The second part is about 9/11 and it's really hard to tell for me or you if they are right or wrong. They're very convincing, but none of us here can claim that they're spot on.
The third part is telling us that the United States waged the wars in the last 100 years purely for economic gain for the elite. I can say here the same thing i said about the second part.

I didn't watch Zeitgeist Addendum yet.