When will we learn? (1 Viewer)

[Zé Tahir]

I realize this might come off as a bit corny but when will we learn as humans that we need to share? We're all connected to each other, more so today than ever before. What we do effects everyone in some way, shape or form.

The wealthy nations have turned a blind eye to the poor. Only willing to help when there's an opportunity to gain something out of it; out of selfish intentions. While the people of their own countries enjoy the comforts of life beyond the minimum necessities others are going a day without a drop of water. You get my point.

What happened in Mogadishu, Kandahar, or Sana'a didn't affect what happened back home but now everything is changing. Masked under various things it's hitting closer and closer to home. You've got Somali pirates are plundering the seas, "Islamic" terrorists from Virginia to Bali are terrorizing innocent people.

Maybe, just maybe...if these wealthy nations took care and looked after those that were poor like a better off sibling would do to another sibling then what we're facing today (and it's only going to get worse) would not be happening. Help that would have no strings attached, no self interest...just out of sheer good intentions.

I'm not saying any of this is right, it's just a thought and I'm opening this up for discussion so...


What you think
Please discuss.

 

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[swag]

Hate to say it, Zé, but what I think is that I'm surprised you thought this was an original enough topic to warrant a new thread.

But why the heck not...

Here you've reduced everything to class warfare, btw. I'm not so sure that eliminating class warfare is necessarily a good cause in principle alone. At a meta level, it's policies like these that lead to mass starvation in the Chinese countryside under The Great Leap Forward, etc.

Presuming life must be fair in some way, shape, or form is a bit of delusion. Life is made up of struggle, kill or be killed, and Darwinism in action. While it appeals to our better-thought-of nature to say we've somehow evolved above all that, the facts are facts: it's a struggle to the death for forms of life everywhere.

Once you accept that foundation as reality, I think you're in a better position to deal with the world's problems than to take the approach that we all will get along in world harmony, share everything we have with our less fortunate brothers, and kumbaya to kingdom come. Because it ain't gonna happen, and delusion is the only outcome if you suspect human nature to be otherwise.

 

[Bjerknes]

The problem is you can't help everybody.

 

[X Æ A-12]

Never, the human race is no closer to learning how to share than it was 2,000 years ago.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Original enough for Juventuz I'd say.


You know that old saying give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and you'll have fed him for a lifetime. Well, I'm not saying that that the rich nation should "give" but rather "teach". Teach him without expecting anything back.

I'll give you a real life example. My grandmother is a wealthy woman back in Pakistan. She had the same cook for over 30 years. A poor man from Kashmir. She put his children through school without expecting and receiving a dime back. His children are now educated and well settled in Germany. Their generation will not go through what their ancestors did. Now imagine something similar at a state level; where nations are doing this for other nations.

 

[Ford Prefect]

One of the more sensible things humanity can do is a nice cut back on the world population to a sustainable level. (as in people having less children not killing a people) First thing to get the ball rolling is abolish catholicism, or get them to allow condoms.

 

[swag]

Harsh as it may be, at some level, you just cannot reward a Somalia, for example, for being such an example of being as f*cked up of a nation as it is. It can drag down other nations with them (Ethiopia, etc.).

Not to mention the doubly screwed up problem where f*cked up nations will often accept aid and misappropriate it to the worst kind of people who are screwing all the deserving people around them -- just making the menaces worse. Maybe I'm just cynical, but these are very, very difficult problems.

 

[Dragon]

Not to mention the doubly screwed up problem where f*cked up nations will often accept aid and misappropriate it to the worst kind of people who are screwing all the deserving people around them -- just making the menaces worse.

If this aid to poor countries was to ever happen it should be given in education, I'm a firm believer that the first step to attack poverty is through education

 

[X Æ A-12]

One of the more sensible things humanity can do is a nice cut back on the world population to a sustainable level. (as in people having less children not killing a people) First thing to get the ball rolling is abolish catholicism, or get them to allow condoms.

I agree completely. Providing birth control products and related education to women in poorer countries should be one of the main priorities

The rising birth rate needs to be curved off

 

[Zé Tahir]

Harsh as it may be, at some level, you just cannot reward a Somalia, for example, for being such an example of being as f*cked up of a nation as it is. It can drag down other nations with them (Ethiopia, etc.).

Not to mention the doubly screwed up problem where f*cked up nations will often accept aid and misappropriate it to the worst kind of people who are screwing all the deserving people around them -- just making the menaces worse. Maybe I'm just cynical, but these are very, very difficult problems.

Most of what you're saying here applies to today which are valid concerns but I'm saying this is something that should have happened yesterday.

I think it's still possible to do it today but everyone would have to change their mentality. The rich and well off states would have to ensure that there are no strings attached and the receiving party would have to come to terms with that and let their guard down. Much of the reason why there are corrupt leaders in poor nations is because they know that everyone is only looking out for themselves so why not pocket some of this and some of that.

An entire transformation of thought would have to take place.

 

[Enron]

Original enough for Juventuz I'd say.


You know that old saying give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and you'll have fed him for a lifetime. Well, I'm not saying that that the rich nation should "give" but rather "teach". Teach him without expecting anything back.

I think the biggest problem is the assumption that outside help will solve all the problems in the third world. This isn't true. No matter how much funding the developed world pumps into poor nations, they aren't going to move forward unless the are led from within. Charity can only help so much.

Take Liberia for example. It was probably the most hopeful nation in Africa before it's downfall. Yet because it depended so much on outside aid, outside advice it fell because no one could bring the population to innovate and produce. Now, they have a new president that didn't fight or buy her way to the position and the nation is in the majority for progress under her leadership.

My point here is that outside aid is only a bandaide if there is no native leadership. That this can only work if the leadership is positive. Take Chad for example. The nation pulls in billions in oil revenues a year, yet is still very poor and undeveloped. Most of this is because the President keeps the money for himself, his family, and his tribe. No amount of outside help can change the plight of Chadians not affiliated with the President. And at the same time, many of the rebel groups that commit atrocities in the Sudan but are able to flee into Chad because they share tribal ties with the President. Darfur is very publicized and most are aware of what goes on their, yet without a native force willing to end the violence and not condone it, the future is bleak for the region.

Tahir you have asked a very good question which does not have one answer. It has many, and all of them are complicated. In a perfect world the solution would be that helping the poor, makes them not poor. But the situation is far more complicated. The important thing is that we avoid myths such as "there is one solution for every problem", "anything can be saved with money", and my favorite "technology will bale us out". The problem won't be solved on this forum, but by leaving out the myths and focusing on what is at hand, hopefully we can have a productive discussion.

 

[Zé Tahir]

I think the biggest problem is the assumption that outside help will solve all the problems in the third world. This isn't true. No matter how much funding the developed world pumps into poor nations, they aren't going to move forward unless the are led from within. Charity can only help so much.

Take Liberia for example. It was probably the most hopeful nation in Africa before it's downfall. Yet because it depended so much on outside aid, outside advice it fell because no one could bring the population to innovate and produce. Now, they have a new president that didn't fight or buy her way to the position and the nation is in the majority for progress under her leadership.

My point here is that outside aid is only a bandaide if there is no native leadership. That this can only work if the leadership is positive. Take Chad for example. The nation pulls in billions in oil revenues a year, yet is still very poor and undeveloped. Most of this is because the President keeps the money for himself, his family, and his tribe. No amount of outside help can change the plight of Chadians not affiliated with the President. And at the same time, many of the rebel groups that commit atrocities in the Sudan but are able to flee into Chad because they share tribal ties with the President. Darfur is very publicized and most are aware of what goes on their, yet without a native force willing to end the violence and not condone it, the future is bleak for the region.

Tahir you have asked a very good question which does not have one answer. It has many, and all of them are complicated. In a perfect world the solution would be that helping the poor, makes them not poor. But the situation is far more complicated. The important thing is that we avoid myths such as "there is one solution for every problem", "anything can be saved with money", and my favorite "technology will bale us out". The problem won't be solved on this forum, but by leaving out the myths and focusing on what is at hand, hopefully we can have a productive discussion.

Good post

Read what I wrote above to Greg though. I realize what you guys are saying and they're really valid points.

 

[swag]

Nice post is right, E.

Most of what you're saying here applies to today which are valid concerns but I'm saying this is something that should have happened yesterday.

I think it's still possible to do it today but everyone would have to change their mentality. The rich and well off states would have to ensure that there are no strings attached and the receiving party would have to come to terms with that and let their guard down. Much of the reason why there are corrupt leaders in poor nations is because they know that everyone is only looking out for themselves so why not pocket some of this and some of that.

An entire transformation of thought would have to take place.

I think you also have to be careful here when you talk of rich states helping poor states. It quickly becomes construed as international socialism, and there are some people -- particularly those who think they've earned their status -- who think socialism is a bad idea at the family level, an atrocity at the national level, and the end of the world at a global level.

 

[Enron]

Most of what you're saying here applies to today which are valid concerns but I'm saying this is something that should have happened yesterday.

I think it's still possible to do it today but everyone would have to change their mentality. The rich and well off states would have to ensure that there are no strings attached and the receiving party would have to come to terms with that and let their guard down. Much of the reason why there are corrupt leaders in poor nations is because they know that everyone is only looking out for themselves so why not pocket some of this and some of that.

An entire transformation of thought would have to take place.

This would be different if the whole world was Pakistan. I'm not being degrading or anything, just imagine the earth being Pakistan. The only cultures, religions, and tribal groups that could be found on planet Pakistan would be those found in the present day nation of Pakistan. Then yes, I believe the world could possible be autruistic enough to make this work.

Now lets imagine that planet Pakistan has the tribes of Ethiopia (ethiopia has more than 10, I'm counting the Saharan and Somali tribes too). Would the same values and ideals make such a community possible? Probably not.

The point is that when you have as many individual groups in the world as we do today, unilateral change is very very difficult. The only way this can work is if each tribe (white people included) in the world viewed altruism the same. For that to happen, each group of people would have to change individually from the inside. You can't force change, we all agree on that.

The best way to promote change is to live by example. Africa is so corrupt because that's how most Africans view the world. They figure if everyone else is getting a cut, why not us? The only way that would change is if the most corrupt African nation were to take the reigns and become anti corruption in order to lead the rest of the continent by example. The same way the US cutting back on carbon would help India and China cut back on carbon. If you just speak about a better way, no one will listen. If you live a better life, people will watch.

This isn't a problem that will be cured in a year, a decade or even 10 decades. There will always be poor, but the difference will be in the way they perceive the wealthy and the options at their disposal. If they perceive the wealthy a corrupt, then they will seek options of corruption. If not, their future is brighter.

 

[Nenz]

The problem is you can't help everybody.

That is probably true. Poverty is a reality of society thats existed for thousands of years. Even though the gap is very slowly closing its still something that we need to accept will always be around, its just an economic cycle. However, there are too many billionaires out there wiping their arses with $100 bills. That's millions of struggling people not getting the help they need. I definately see where Ze is coming from.

Another cause is plain idiocy. There are too many dickheads running countries into the ground. They have massive egos and no compassion. Robert Mugabe is the best example of someone who shouldn't run a country and this man won the Nobel peace prize! Africa is littered with examples of stupid greedy fucks with too much responsibility and they're the cause for the abomination that is that hell bound continent.

That should serve as a lesson that we probably will never learn. Imperialism has dire long term ramifications. Forcing native cultures to immediately intergrate to a european lifestyle has never ever worked. Australian aboriginals have a life expectancy 12 years below that of non-indigenous Australians, with massive alcohol, poverty and drug problems. African nations are listed on the bottom half of every life expectancy list there is. Native Americans have nearly been wiped out and I assume that's the direction in which Aboriginal Australians are headed.. extinction. Really, imperialism is the root of the mass poverty we're seeing emerge.

 

[Enron]

That is probably true. Poverty is a reality of society thats existed for thousands of years. Even though the gap is very slowly closing its still something that we need to accept will always be around, its just an economic cycle. However, there are too many billionaires out there wiping their arses with $100 bills. That's millions of struggling people not getting the help they need. I definately see where Ze is coming from.

Another cause is plain idiocy. There are too many dickheads running countries into the ground. They have massive egos and no compassion. Robert Mugabe is the best example of someone who shouldn't run a country and this man won the Nobel peace prize! Africa is littered with examples of stupid greedy fucks with too much responsibility and they're the cause for the abomination that is that hell bound continent.

That should serve as a lesson that we probably will never learn. Imperialism has dire long term ramifications. Forcing native cultures to immediately intergrate to a european lifestyle has never ever worked. Australian aboriginals have a life expectancy 12 years below that of non-indigenous Australians, with massive alcohol, poverty and drug problems. African nations are listed on the bottom half of every life expectancy list there is. Native Americans have nearly been wiped out and I assume that's the direction in which Aboriginal Australians are headed.. extinction. Really, imperialism is the root of the mass poverty we're seeing emerge.

Well they aren't close to being wiped out. But their lives, culture, existence is a shell of what it used to be. I worked with a bunch out west when I was a firefighter.

 

[Nenz]

Well they aren't close to being wiped out. But their lives, culture, existence is a shell of what it used to be. I worked with a bunch out west when I was a firefighter.

Their population has more then halved since european settlement though. I gotta say though, they're mananging quite well they have a good life expectancy compared to other indigenous populations.

 

[Enron]

Their population has more then halved since european settlement though. I gotta say though, they're mananging quite well they have a good life expectancy compared to other indigenous populations.

It's better than others, but it sucks.

 

[Zé Tahir]

This would be different if the whole world was Pakistan. I'm not being degrading or anything, just imagine the earth being Pakistan. The only cultures, religions, and tribal groups that could be found on planet Pakistan would be those found in the present day nation of Pakistan. Then yes, I believe the world could possible be autruistic enough to make this work.

Now lets imagine that planet Pakistan has the tribes of Ethiopia (ethiopia has more than 10, I'm counting the Saharan and Somali tribes too). Would the same values and ideals make such a community possible? Probably not.

The point is that when you have as many individual groups in the world as we do today, unilateral change is very very difficult. The only way this can work is if each tribe (white people included) in the world viewed altruism the same. For that to happen, each group of people would have to change individually from the inside. You can't force change, we all agree on that.

The best way to promote change is to live by example. Africa is so corrupt because that's how most Africans view the world. They figure if everyone else is getting a cut, why not us? The only way that would change is if the most corrupt African nation were to take the reigns and become anti corruption in order to lead the rest of the continent by example. The same way the US cutting back on carbon would help India and China cut back on carbon. If you just speak about a better way, no one will listen. If you live a better life, people will watch.

This isn't a problem that will be cured in a year, a decade or even 10 decades. There will always be poor, but the difference will be in the way they perceive the wealthy and the options at their disposal. If they perceive the wealthy a corrupt, then they will seek options of corruption. If not, their future is brighter.

Excellent post. Totally agree!

ps: Just a little FYI though: Pakistan is as diverse as they come. Language, culture, customs, etc. all change as you move from the border of China down to the Arabian Sea.

 

[Zé Tahir]

That is probably true. Poverty is a reality of society thats existed for thousands of years. Even though the gap is very slowly closing its still something that we need to accept will always be around, its just an economic cycle. However, there are too many billionaires out there wiping their arses with $100 bills. That's millions of struggling people not getting the help they need. I definately see where Ze is coming from.

Another cause is plain idiocy. There are too many dickheads running countries into the ground. They have massive egos and no compassion. Robert Mugabe is the best example of someone who shouldn't run a country and this man won the Nobel peace prize! Africa is littered with examples of stupid greedy fucks with too much responsibility and they're the cause for the abomination that is that hell bound continent.

That should serve as a lesson that we probably will never learn. Imperialism has dire long term ramifications. Forcing native cultures to immediately intergrate to a european lifestyle has never ever worked. Australian aboriginals have a life expectancy 12 years below that of non-indigenous Australians, with massive alcohol, poverty and drug problems. African nations are listed on the bottom half of every life expectancy list there is. Native Americans have nearly been wiped out and I assume that's the direction in which Aboriginal Australians are headed.. extinction. Really, imperialism is the root of the mass poverty we're seeing emerge.

There will always be poor but honestly the ratio today is unacceptable. Good post