What happened to our defence? (1 Viewer)

SupJuve

Junior Member
Jul 12, 2002
58
#1
the last two matches in CL showed that our center defence players suck. i don't know how montero and ferrara let giggs and tristan to score that goals. i think thuram should be played in the center to solve this problem. and next season we need a serious addition to improve our defence. however i don't know who should we buy. canna and nesta has just changed their clubs.
 

Tom

The DJ
Oct 30, 2001
11,726
#2
Thuram is better as a right back, so he should stay there. Tristan scored because for some reason both sentre backs were drawn across, this is a tendency with Montero as seen in the world cup, and Ferrara appears to be the same.

I suggest inserting tudor in to the centre of defence in place of one of these, and giving Iuliano more of a chance too. Pessotto should be immediately restored to left back as well.

Thuram-----Tudor-----*-----Pessotto

* = any of Ferrara, Fresi, Iuliano, Montero

add Gigi in goal and this is a very good defcne IMO, although still could be seriously improved by adding Mexes in the summer!
 

Desmond

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
8,938
#3
i agree about pessotto,but tudor would be a liability in CL with his lack of speed.he wouldn't have caught up with,let alone stopped,tristan from scoring that goal.ferrara should be a mainstay of the defence imo.
 

Tom

The DJ
Oct 30, 2001
11,726
#4
you disregard Tudor because of a lack of speed, but are willing to place all your faith in Ferrara? (who is hardly deemed quick)
 

Desmond

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
8,938
#5
but he is faster,has played very well this season and is definitely better at defending than tudor in more aspects than one.i'd rather have someone with experience when we are about to buy someone YOUNG and speedy to fill the void beside tudor/ferrara.
we cannot have two young players integrated into the most commonly exposed part of the team at once,in this case tudor and mexes/chivu.
 

Tom

The DJ
Oct 30, 2001
11,726
#6
why can't we? why must we stick with an old guy like Ferrara? we've seen where that's gotten us? 2 conceded in riazor, 2 at old trafford, and 5 in the SDA in the reverse fixtures.

9 conceded in 4 games against decent european sides. That is shite! Obviously the defence is not good enough for Europe, therefore it needs overhauling. Chivu and Mexes have enough experience already, so they are more than good enough to slot into the defence.

-------------------------Buffon---------------------------
Thuram------Mexes---------Chivu----------Pessotto

I'd like to see Man U try put three past this team!
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
#7
++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
why can't we? why must we stick with an old guy like Ferrara? we've seen where that's gotten us? 2 conceded in riazor, 2 at old trafford, and 5 in the SDA in the reverse fixtures.

9 conceded in 4 games against decent european sides. That is shite! Obviously the defence is not good enough for Europe, therefore it needs overhauling. Chivu and Mexes have enough experience already, so they are more than good enough to slot into the defence.

-------------------------Buffon---------------------------
Thuram------Mexes---------Chivu----------Pessotto

I'd like to see Man U try put three past this team!
I'd rather see them not get past this back line:

-----------------------Buffon
-----------------------Ferrara
------Thuram--Mexes---Bonera--O'brien


but obviously we couldn't play that formation in Serie A, too defensive, but it would be deadly in the CL.
--
 

Tom

The DJ
Oct 30, 2001
11,726
#8
I suppose it gives Thuram and O'Brien a lot more chances to attack, but if we had a good central defence maybe they would not even need to have a sweeper behind them.

I would still like us to try a three man defence at one point, as it would free up an extra man to help out in the middle of the park.
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
#9
Personally , I think its time to overhaul the defence, players like Ferrara and Montero have served us very well in the past but its time to move on. All this nonsense of getting a potentially good player like Mexes and loaning him out to Reggina or Sampdoria is stupidity. Look at Milan instead of rebuilding that defence years ago , they didn't and still have 80s guys Costacurta and Maldini playing there, is there a wonder they are always playing catchup in games

We seem to be going in the same route, yes Ferrara is a very solid performer, he is slow and with Montero out of sorts, Thuram always seems to be coming to the middle to make challenges, to make it worse, you have a left full back who is playing centre forward at times , this does not help the old guys

But seriously major surgery is required and enuff of this they will need time to bed well, we do not know that and even if they do , it will be worth it in the end as we cannot continue with Montero and ferrara imo
 

Glen

Junior Member
Aug 26, 2002
157
#10
++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
Look at Milan instead of rebuilding that defence years ago , they didn't and still have 80s guys Costacurta and Maldini playing there, is there a wonder they are always playing catchup in games
Well- Maldini isn't exactly dragging Milan down now is he Denco?
Ferrara hasn't exactly been our worst defener now has he?

I think EVERYONE agrees that we need more pace down there, and everyone would love to get one of the really good young players around. But when you see the pairing of two of Italy's most promising defenders- Ferrari and Bonera... really- while they are physically better performers they hardly look more solid or convincing than Ciro-Montero do they? At least- there's not alot to suggest that they are.

As we already have Tudor I'd really like to get a new starter to partner him, but I would not hessitate to play Ferrara for a second if we got a pacey and classy guy to back him up. Not next year either, and no matter the opposition (unless of course Ciro next year is totally different from this year and the last- you never know). Virtually no one leads a defence like our Ciro. He is performing match after match after match.

In the case of Zambro/Pessotto I think much is remedied by simply playing Pessotto against the teams likely to put our defence under real pressure, while Zambrotta gives us a fine offensive boost when playing less competent teams (like Inter :howler: ). Seriously- Pessotto shuts down his side and contributes little in offence. Zambrotta gives alot to offence and is a liability in defence when the opposition is strong. But against at least 10 teams in serie A this is not much of an issue. We have so often been annoyed with the lack of support from the flanks, and Zambrotta can help give us that. Sure- a 'real' left full back would be nice, but he has to be real good to give a boost over the tactically flexible duo of Pessotto/Zambrotta. Such players are often costly, and if we don't get that real quality central defender- I think it's pointless upgrading left back that is working quite alright as it is. I'd much rather get Mexes and not a left back than get Bonera and a left back for instance.

Ciao.
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
#11
++ [ originally posted by Glen ] ++
In the case of Zambro/Pessotto I think much is remedied by simply playing Pessotto against the teams likely to put our defence under real pressure, while Zambrotta gives us a fine offensive boost when playing less competent teams (like Inter :howler: ). Seriously- Pessotto shuts down his side and contributes little in offence. Zambrotta gives alot to offence and is a liability in defence when the opposition is strong. But against at least 10 teams in serie A this is not much of an issue. We have so often been annoyed with the lack of support from the flanks, and Zambrotta can help give us that. Sure- a 'real' left full back would be nice, but he has to be real good to give a boost over the tactically flexible duo of Pessotto/Zambrotta. Such players are often costly, and if we don't get that real quality central defender- I think it's pointless upgrading left back that is working quite alright as it is. I'd much rather get Mexes and not a left back than get Bonera and a left back for instance.

Ciao.
Alright, so you would rotate Pessotto and Zamby on the left? Pessotto isn't exactly a spring chicken, I would think he would need to be replaced in that scheme eventually anyway. Why not buy a good left back who can do what Zamby and Pessotto do? You said because it would be too expensive, but I hardly think that someone like Jong O'brien would be out of Juve's price range, plus buying that player would allow us to sell Biri, Pessotto, and/or Zamby. Seems like a good deal to me.

That being said, what would be wrong with getting a good left back and a good young central defender? Nothing, to my mind.
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
#12
Oh yeah I just thought of this: We could alternatively bring in Zanchi, sell Biri/Pessotto/Zamby and buy a midfielder with the funds.
 

Glen

Junior Member
Aug 26, 2002
157
#13
++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++
Oh yeah I just thought of this: We could alternatively bring in Zanchi, sell Biri/Pessotto/Zamby and buy a midfielder with the funds.
My point exactly. What on earth would we need Zanchi for? We had him here, he didn't cut it, and we can play Ferrara until he's 40 and he will STILL be better than Zanchi could ever aspire to be. Zanchi was hailed as a major talent 4 years ago. He never delivered. He's the third best central defender at Bologna. We don't have a single central defender that isn't better than him, and if he were to be a great, he would have shown it by now.

There is merit to Real Madrid's "Zidanes e Pavones" philosophy I think. If you're going to spend good money in areas you are already.. let's say at least reasonably covered in.. then better make sure that replacement is a REAL improvement. Pessotto is no spring chicken but... so? He's not collecting senior citizen's cheques either, and when called upon he's doing more or less what he's done for 5 years. Being a dependable albeit unspectacular player. Last cat in the hat was Moretti and in all propability we'll never see him in Bianconeri again either. "Only" cost us €5 mill. too... Baiocco to my knowledge was €8 million, and had we waved €13 million in front of Roma we might even have gotten Candela. What I'm saying both in terms of central defence and left back- if we're getting someone (and we should) make sure it's a damn good one for central defence first- because that's what we really need.

But as I said- it would be cool to get a great left back. For sure. If it happens because we're getting a second tier central defender instead of a first tier one- I just think it was all for nothing.
Like Nesta walked into Milan's lineup and changed the overall quality of the team- such must the defender we're buying be.

You then say why not get a great one of both... true, but what about the Nedved cover then?
You want to buy the X left back and that would "allow" us to sell Biri, Pessotto or even Zambro (which I as you know tottaly oppose ;)). Sure- but to get someone who would 99% sure be a REAL upgrade. NOT to get JOHN O'BRIEN who can't crack Ajax' team!!!! I find it way too much of a gamble to talk about selling established players we know we can count on just to get a player who you might say is proven, but isn't a regular in a squad (I know he played against Valencia, but he has started in about 9 Eresdivision or CL matches this season) we must be said to be superior to, has never shined offensively (been a scorer or assist maker, crosser anything) or created any kind of headlines (in Europe at least) and has never played in serieA. I know you like the guy and all, but really.... He didn't stand out for the US team once in Japan/Korea, and if you can't do that in the US team you're not for Juve. e Basta! :D

Really- I didn't mean to be harsh here, but compare please... Real plays Roberto Carlos. Barca plays Sorin. Bayern- Lizerazu, Roma- Candela, Milan- Maldini, Arsenal- Cole or Van Bronckhorst... and so on and so on... you want Juve to sell Pessotto or Zambrotta and get John O'Brien?

Ciao.
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
#14
++ [ originally posted by Glen ] ++
My point exactly. What on earth would we need Zanchi for? We had him here, he didn't cut it, and we can play Ferrara until he's 40 and he will STILL be better than Zanchi could ever aspire to be. Zanchi was hailed as a major talent 4 years ago. He never delivered. He's the third best central defender at Bologna. We don't have a single central defender that isn't better than him, and if he were to be a great, he would have shown it by now.

There is merit to Real Madrid's "Zidanes e Pavones" philosophy I think. If you're going to spend good money in areas you are already.. let's say at least reasonably covered in.. then better make sure that replacement is a REAL improvement. Pessotto is no spring chicken but... so? He's not collecting senior citizen's cheques either, and when called upon he's doing more or less what he's done for 5 years. Being a dependable albeit unspectacular player. Last cat in the hat was Moretti and in all propability we'll never see him in Bianconeri again either. "Only" cost us €5 mill. too... Baiocco to my knowledge was €8 million, and had we waved €13 million in front of Roma we might even have gotten Candela. What I'm saying both in terms of central defence and left back- if we're getting someone (and we should) make sure it's a damn good one for central defence first- because that's what we really need.

But as I said- it would be cool to get a great left back. For sure. If it happens because we're getting a second tier central defender instead of a first tier one- I just think it was all for nothing.
Like Nesta walked into Milan's lineup and changed the overall quality of the team- such must the defender we're buying be.

You then say why not get a great one of both... true, but what about the Nedved cover then?
You want to buy the X left back and that would "allow" us to sell Biri, Pessotto or even Zambro (which I as you know tottaly oppose ;)). Sure- but to get someone who would 99% sure be a REAL upgrade. NOT to get JOHN O'BRIEN who can't crack Ajax' team!!!! I find it way too much of a gamble to talk about selling established players we know we can count on just to get a player who you might say is proven, but isn't a regular in a squad (I know he played against Valencia, but he has started in about 9 Eresdivision or CL matches this season) we must be said to be superior to, has never shined offensively (been a scorer or assist maker, crosser anything) or created any kind of headlines (in Europe at least) and has never played in serieA. I know you like the guy and all, but really.... He didn't stand out for the US team once in Japan/Korea, and if you can't do that in the US team you're not for Juve. e Basta! :D

Really- I didn't mean to be harsh here, but compare please... Real plays Roberto Carlos. Barca plays Sorin. Bayern- Lizerazu, Roma- Candela, Milan- Maldini, Arsenal- Cole or Van Bronckhorst... and so on and so on... you want Juve to sell Pessotto or Zambrotta and get John O'Brien?

Ciao.
Well, firstly I wasn't thinking of Zanchi as a central back, but as a left back. But, then again I haven't seen him play in a while, perhaps you are right.

As for John O'drien, he was playing with Ajax regularly and doing very well, until he came down with an injury, he is only know getting back into real shape. You will see him shining again soon for Ajax. Also, I think that O'brien is at least as good as Lizerazu, or Cole, and Van Bronckhorst isn't really a left back. And O'brien will develope into a player of wquality at least as good as Candela, or Sorin.
 

Glen

Junior Member
Aug 26, 2002
157
#15
OK.

As for Zanchi he is a central defender without an ounce of skill on the ball, and his best or only position is as the central defender in a 3 man defence, where he sweeps and clears crosses well. But let's leave him aside as it's insignificant when you didn't think of him as a central defender.

On John O'Brien we then just have to disagree, and that's cool. I just think he, approaching 26 as he is, would have shown more good stuff to merit your praise by now, if in fact he was going to.
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
#16
++ [ originally posted by Glen ] ++
OK.

As for Zanchi he is a central defender without an ounce of skill on the ball, and his best or only position is as the central defender in a 3 man defence, where he sweeps and clears crosses well. But let's leave him aside as it's insignificant when you didn't think of him as a central defender.

On John O'Brien we then just have to disagree, and that's cool. I just think he, approaching 26 as he is, would have shown more good stuff to merit your praise by now, if in fact he was going to.
Fine maybe O'brien isn't the player for Juve (though I think that he is quite good), some one else perhaps? The only problem is that I can't think of anyone else who would be available and good at all.
 

Glen

Junior Member
Aug 26, 2002
157
#17
I don't know Ian.
I don't see many great, proven left backs around either. Fortunately for me I don't think it's much of a concern to us as said or indicated earlier ;). I do think both Armand at Nantes and Brechét at Lyon operate on a very high level though. Both ways, with pace and technically very competent too. Armand for the more offensive, and Brechét for the more defensive solution. Both of them from the last French U-21 team, so there's a long term thing going here as well.

Again- if one of them arrived alongside Mexés I'd be ecstatic. But I don't see it as an ultra important signing to be honest.
 

Adrian

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2003
4,228
#18
Tudor needs to be in that defence. what he lacks in speed he gains with defending skills. he wouldnt let players turn him as he is big and strong. Ferrara is playing well, but we still have to question him and montero after conceeding so many goals.

I think if Tudor is put back where he belongs, centre back, he needs a partner, which i think either Chivu or Mexes would do more than good there.

I dont want pessotto starting at left back. if zambrotta isnt good enough for left back, then a player like armand should come in.

thuram---tudor---chivu/mexes----armand

looks very good to me.
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
#20
++ [ originally posted by Glen ] ++
I don't know Ian.
I don't see many great, proven left backs around either. Fortunately for me I don't think it's much of a concern to us as said or indicated earlier ;). I do think both Armand at Nantes and Brechét at Lyon operate on a very high level though. Both ways, with pace and technically very competent too. Armand for the more offensive, and Brechét for the more defensive solution. Both of them from the last French U-21 team, so there's a long term thing going here as well.

Again- if one of them arrived alongside Mexés I'd be ecstatic. But I don't see it as an ultra important signing to be honest.
Right, I like Armand, he is a fine player, but he will be very expensive.
 

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