The Problems With Ethical Relativism (1 Viewer)

rounder

Blindman
Jun 13, 2007
7,233
#1
In the light of the recent debates I have had with some members in forum regarding the nature of morality. I would like to reinstate my opinion that objective moral truths are a fundamental part of reality.

I will highlight the reasons for why I cannot believe in ethical relativism, and try to convey the obvious problems regarding this theory.

To define ethical relativism, it is basically the theory that holds that morality is relative to the norms of one's culture. That is, whether an action is right or wrong depends on the moral norms of the society in which it is practiced. The same action may be morally right in one society but be morally wrong in another. This states that there are no universal moral standards, ones that can be universally applied to all peoples at all times.


The only moral standards against which a society's practices can be judged are its own. If ethical relativism is correct, there can be no common framework for resolving moral disputes or for reaching agreement on ethical matters among members of different societies. Thus, it is apparently useless to debate on topics that contain different moral standpoints.

If, say there were two sides, A and B, discussing whether the United States were right in going into Iraq. (A) might state that they were morally justfied in order to preserve human freedom and democracy. Position (B) might hold that they were morally wrong in doing so because they were causing harm to many innocent people. The point here is this, what is the framework for resolving such a moral dispute? If ethical relativism was indeed correct, a debate on this topic would be absolutely pointless.

Another viable point is that while the moral practices of societies may differ, the fundamental moral principles underlying these practices do not. For example, in some societies, killing one's parents after they reached a certain age was common practice, stemming from the belief that people were better off in the afterlife if they entered it while still physically active and vigorous. While such a practice would be condemned in our society, we would agree with these societies on the underlying moral principle, the duty to care for parents. Societies, then, may differ in their application of fundamental moral principles but agree on the principles.


It may be the case that some moral beliefs are culturally relative whereas others are not. Certain practices, such as customs regarding dress and decency, may depend on local custom whereas other practices, such as slavery, torture, or political repression, may be governed by universal moral standards and judged wrong despite the many other differences that exist among cultures. Simply because some practices are relative does not mean that all practices are relative.


If the rightness or wrongness of an action depends on a society's norms, then it follows that one must obey the norms of one's society and to diverge from those norms is to act immorally. This means that if I am a member of a society that believes that racial or sexist practices are morally permissible, then I must accept those practices as morally right. But such a view promotes social conformity and leaves no room for moral reform or improvement in a society. Furthermore, members of the same society may hold different views on practices. In the United States, for example, a variety of moral opinions exists on matters ranging from animal experimentation to abortion. What constitutes right action when social consensus is lacking?

My final point is that universal moral standards can exist even if some moral practices and beliefs vary among cultures. In other words, we can acknowledge cultural differences in moral practices and beliefs and still hold that some of these practices and beliefs are morally wrong. The practice of slavery in pre Civil War America is considered morally wrong despite it being socially acceptable.
The treatment of the Jews in Nazi society is morally reprehensible regardless of the moral beliefs of Nazi society. I have made this point before and I find it amusing that some atheists refuse to accept this. Just because Nazi's thought they were morally justified in exterminating millions of people, that does not deem their actions morally right.

Quick note.
The logical flaws with ethical relativism are indeed numerous. Here's what I think the problem is. Just as how some Christians and Muslims seem so blinded by their beliefs that they refuse to accept universal scientific truths such as evolution, it seems rather apparent to me that atheists are blinded by their own sets of beliefs and instead of embracing the reality of objective morality, they seem to reject it and instead, resort to whatever set of beliefs is most compatible with atheism.
 

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Eddy

The Maestro
Aug 20, 2005
12,644
#2
So everyone is wrong basically, good stuff

But I think I'm going to shoot the next person that opens a religious topic
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
#4
Embracing Ethical relativism will set a precedent for so many problems, i don't even want to begin considering it.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#5
Embracing Ethical relativism will set a precedent for so many problems, i don't even want to begin considering it.
It already is a problem, Freddy. It's obvious we don't agree on certain things like personal freedoms, free expression, norms that differ in our cultures.* So where is this objective morality to settle the issue? If there was one we'd already know who is right, wouldn't we?

These cultural conflicts are precisely the outcome of cultural clashes between cultures of different moral norms. So we're faced with this problem right now, much as we would like not to have it.

* Not you and me per se, but various people on the forum.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,400
#6
In the light of the recent debates I have had with some members in forum regarding the nature of morality. I would like to reinstate my opinion that objective moral truths are a fundamental part of reality.

I will highlight the reasons for why I cannot believe in ethical relativism, and try to convey the obvious problems regarding this theory.

To define ethical relativism, it is basically the theory that holds that morality is relative to the norms of one's culture. That is, whether an action is right or wrong depends on the moral norms of the society in which it is practiced. The same action may be morally right in one society but be morally wrong in another. This states that there are no universal moral standards, ones that can be universally applied to all peoples at all times.


The only moral standards against which a society's practices can be judged are its own. If ethical relativism is correct, there can be no common framework for resolving moral disputes or for reaching agreement on ethical matters among members of different societies. Thus, it is apparently useless to debate on topics that contain different moral standpoints.

If, say there were two sides, A and B, discussing whether the United States were right in going into Iraq. (A) might state that they were morally justfied in order to preserve human freedom and democracy. Position (B) might hold that they were morally wrong in doing so because they were causing harm to many innocent people. The point here is this, what is the framework for resolving such a moral dispute? If ethical relativism was indeed correct, a debate on this topic would be absolutely pointless.

Another viable point is that while the moral practices of societies may differ, the fundamental moral principles underlying these practices do not. For example, in some societies, killing one's parents after they reached a certain age was common practice, stemming from the belief that people were better off in the afterlife if they entered it while still physically active and vigorous. While such a practice would be condemned in our society, we would agree with these societies on the underlying moral principle, the duty to care for parents. Societies, then, may differ in their application of fundamental moral principles but agree on the principles.


It may be the case that some moral beliefs are culturally relative whereas others are not. Certain practices, such as customs regarding dress and decency, may depend on local custom whereas other practices, such as slavery, torture, or political repression, may be governed by universal moral standards and judged wrong despite the many other differences that exist among cultures. Simply because some practices are relative does not mean that all practices are relative.


If the rightness or wrongness of an action depends on a society's norms, then it follows that one must obey the norms of one's society and to diverge from those norms is to act immorally. This means that if I am a member of a society that believes that racial or sexist practices are morally permissible, then I must accept those practices as morally right. But such a view promotes social conformity and leaves no room for moral reform or improvement in a society. Furthermore, members of the same society may hold different views on practices. In the United States, for example, a variety of moral opinions exists on matters ranging from animal experimentation to abortion. What constitutes right action when social consensus is lacking?

My final point is that universal moral standards can exist even if some moral practices and beliefs vary among cultures. In other words, we can acknowledge cultural differences in moral practices and beliefs and still hold that some of these practices and beliefs are morally wrong. The practice of slavery in pre Civil War America is considered morally wrong despite it being socially acceptable.
The treatment of the Jews in Nazi society is morally reprehensible regardless of the moral beliefs of Nazi society. I have made this point before and I find it amusing that some atheists refuse to accept this. Just because Nazi's thought they were morally justified in exterminating millions of people, that does not deem their actions morally right.

Quick note.
The logical flaws with ethical relativism are indeed numerous. Here's what I think the problem is. Just as how some Christians and Muslims seem so blinded by their beliefs that they refuse to accept universal scientific truths such as evolution, it seems rather apparent to me that atheists are blinded by their own sets of beliefs and instead of embracing the reality of objective morality, they seem to reject it and instead, resort to whatever set of beliefs is most compatible with atheism.
I have so much to say about this, however I'll just try to give you another prospective.
Morals are usually set by the people. It as well as all cultural norms come from the agreement of people of what they should do or ought to do in certain situations. Why are certain norms adopted and others dropped out in a culture... what makes people agree that "when so and so happens you should do so and so"
I'll express this on an individual level and on a society's level.

Individual:
This is because these people think that if you do this action it will be best for you as an individual. You (the individual) evaluate what they told you to do and see if this advice is good or not and based on your evaluation you accept it or you don't. When you evaluate something you compare it to previously adopted ideas in your mind, experiences etc and here comes the difference in judgement. Your inner self (mind) is different from one person to another. Peer effect, parents as well as all cultural factors shape your inner self. see, you cannot exclude your past experience (your inner self) when you are judging because its part of you.
That is why we judge actions differently, you always look from your back ground from within your inner-self this is why its always subjective. You do what you think is best/mostuseful in each situation and it becomes your moral code by which your conscience judges you. It becomes your standard, the best thing to do in your books.

Society:
Society is shaped by the sum of its individuals. People living in the same place or nearby each other usually experience similar things. Imagine that every person in the entire society goes through the same process i mentioned above each person would have his own moral book, the more you are affected by the same cultural aspects the more your moral standards will be alike and sharing the same land makes this more plausible as the situations would be more alike and thus more agreement.

The question now is:

If one person living in Egypt encountered a certain situation, would his judgment be the same as that of a person facing the same situation in Canada?

The answer is NO because the inner-self of the Egyptian is drastically different than the inner-self of a Canadian so definitely their judgments may differ. The factors each take into account is drastically different, and the weights given to each factor. You will even see this amongst court judges as a conservative judge will be different from a secular one, a male judge is different from a female one in terms of taking factors into account and we all see how lawyers work on these things.

so as i said what the Egyptian would judge as the most useful and thus the most moral action may be different from what the Canadian would judge.
See it is not like mathematics where you have an equation which says which factors are to be taken and which are not, regardless of your inner self. Math will always give you the same result regardless of whether you like the number 2 more than 5 or any preference you have. Its fixed and objectively true regardless of where you are, where you come from or what you've been through.

Note that i do not necessitate that an Egyptian and a Canadian would disagree, i am only giving it a maybe as the factors are infinite.

Now this question arises:
Is there an objectively right way to act in each an every situation regardless of who you are and where you come from? (just like math does)

Maybe yes or maybe no... either way you cannot find out the answer as we cannot distinguish which results are true and which are false because objectively judging in morality's case is impossible unlike mathematics where you fix what factors affect the equation and what do not.

So the conclusion is:
1) In terms of Judging an action as moral or not: can we judge an action objectively?
NO
2) Can there exists an objective moral law (a best way to act in each situation)?
We cannot know as the factors taken into account are always infinite and relative to the judge.


read this a few times and ask me to clarify anything you do not get and right me if I am wrong here please.
 

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