The History Thread (1 Viewer)

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,924
#61
In Urdu it's Suraj.
Yeah, almost surely the root is the same.

With these common words you can actually follow how certain groups left the Proto Indo-European group, where did they go and approximately the timing of that.

Since I'm not a linguist I might be completely wrong, but the Urdu word Suraj, the Slavic Sunce and the Persian khorsheed might mean that the Persians left your and my ancestors first, who were still together when the word for sun was created.
Or that we were the ones who left the original group and we were together when the word for sun was created.
 

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Fred

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #65
    @Alen,

    Since your specialization was the Byzantine empire, i'm sure you'd be a more than familiar with the story of the man in my avatar's siege on Constantinople and the subsequent fall of the Byzantine empire. There have been some recorded accounts from a few Historians about El-Fatih's homosexual tendencies. One story i read was about El-Fatih calling for the 14 year old son of one of the Byzantine Dukes, to be brought to him for his personal pleasure. Another one is about Radu Bey, who was in the Ottoman janissary, the story recounts that when both were young, Radu was a captive in the Ottoman palace at the time(before he joined the janissary), that El-Fatih was physically attracted to Radu and approached him sexually, Radu reacted by hitting El-Fatih with his sword. That was at first, then later on, Radu submitted to El-Fatih(at this time he had become Sultan), and the two became lovers.

    Now, i have a problem with the credibility of these two stories. I cannot find one single neutral source that supports these claims. Both were stories recounted by Greek historians, and stories you can only find from Greek sources. Now due to known reasons here, the credibility of these sources are questionable.

    What is your take on this? Have you heard/read about these stories before?
     
    OP
    Fred

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #66
    I just traced the main sources of both stories.

    the first was a Byzantine historian called Doukas. The second story was Chalcondyles, an orthodox Greek.
     

    Quetzalcoatl

    It ain't hard to tell
    Aug 22, 2007
    66,757
    #67
    Ooh, nice thread.

    Okay, I have a question that may be kind of vague.

    Anyway, when and where was the "freest" period in history? Is it now in Western society?
     

    JuveJay

    Senior Signor
    Moderator
    Mar 6, 2007
    74,906
    #68
    Interesting, as a similar question popped up on another forum I go on in the last few days, regarding 'best period' to live in.

    On reply was the Pax Romana, maybe a good time for many but being 'free' is another issue. Another was Renaissance Italy, same story.

    I would say you have a good shout there, however even though western society now does not suffer so much from the blanket oppression that it has in the past, from rulers or religion, it does suffer the intrusivenous of constant surveillance from governments and councils. Freedom in that sense might take you back before people lived in large urban areas and had any form of important governance. There were times when people living in ancient Britain (and I'm sure other places, particularly away from mainland Europe and the middle east) used to trade between villages with no form of rule, just living off the land and peacefully. Standard of living may have been low, but that seems pretty free to me. Think of how tribal people still live now.
     

    Alen

    Ѕenior Аdmin
    Apr 2, 2007
    53,924
    #69
    @Alen,

    Since your specialization was the Byzantine empire, i'm sure you'd be a more than familiar with the story of the man in my avatar's siege on Constantinople and the subsequent fall of the Byzantine empire. There have been some recorded accounts from a few Historians about El-Fatih's homosexual tendencies. One story i read was about El-Fatih calling for the 14 year old son of one of the Byzantine Dukes, to be brought to him for his personal pleasure. Another one is about Radu Bey, who was in the Ottoman janissary, the story recounts that when both were young, Radu was a captive in the Ottoman palace at the time(before he joined the janissary), that El-Fatih was physically attracted to Radu and approached him sexually, Radu reacted by hitting El-Fatih with his sword. That was at first, then later on, Radu submitted to El-Fatih(at this time he had become Sultan), and the two became lovers.

    Now, i have a problem with the credibility of these two stories. I cannot find one single neutral source that supports these claims. Both were stories recounted by Greek historians, and stories you can only find from Greek sources. Now due to known reasons here, the credibility of these sources are questionable.

    What is your take on this? Have you heard/read about these stories before?
    I have read them.
    You can't look for a contemporary neutral source. You go with the Turks or the Greeks. Since Mehmed's successors were his sons or grandsons and they had no reason to attack him, you won't hear the Turkish or Muslim historians telling that even if it was the truth.

    With the Greeks you actually have only one source because Doukas took it from Chalcondyles, word for word.
    As far as I know, neither Critobulus nor Phrantzes mentioned this and they'd have surely mentioned it if they believed in it or even if they had the slightest suspicions that it's true.

    Personally I think it's just the defeated party feeling bitter (and they had the right to feel that way. A barbarian, as they thought of the Turks, takes their city, destroys it, rapes, beats, kills everyone for 3 whole days.).
     
    OP
    Fred

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #70
    I have read them.
    You can't look for a contemporary neutral source. You go with the Turks or the Greeks. Since Mehmed's successors were his sons or grandsons and they had no reason to attack him, you won't hear the Turkish or Muslim historians telling that even if it was the truth.

    With the Greeks you actually have only one source because Doukas took it from Chalcondyles, word for word.
    As far as I know, neither Critobulus nor Phrantzes mentioned this and they'd have surely mentioned it if they believed in it or even if they had the slightest suspicions that it's true.

    Personally I think it's just the defeated party feeling bitter (and they had the right to feel that way. A barbarian, as they thought of the Turks, takes their city, destroys it, rapes, beats, kills everyone for 3 whole days.).
    :tup:
     

    Quetzalcoatl

    It ain't hard to tell
    Aug 22, 2007
    66,757
    #71
    Interesting, as a similar question popped up on another forum I go on in the last few days, regarding 'best period' to live in.

    On reply was the Pax Romana, maybe a good time for many but being 'free' is another issue. Another was Renaissance Italy, same story.

    I would say you have a good shout there, however even though western society now does not suffer so much from the blanket oppression that it has in the past, from rulers or religion, it does suffer the intrusivenous of constant surveillance from governments and councils. Freedom in that sense might take you back before people lived in large urban areas and had any form of important governance. There were times when people living in ancient Britain (and I'm sure other places, particularly away from mainland Europe and the middle east) used to trade between villages with no form of rule, just living off the land and peacefully. Standard of living may have been low, but that seems pretty free to me. Think of how tribal people still live now.
    I like this answer.
     

    JuveJay

    Senior Signor
    Moderator
    Mar 6, 2007
    74,906
    #72
    What do people make of this:





    A Punic (Carthaginian) coin from 341 BC, possibly showing American and Asia.

    If Mark McMenamin is correct, neither Columbus nor the Vikings were the first non-natives to set foot on the Americas. McMenamin, the Mount Holyoke geologist who last year led an expedition that discovered the oldest animal fossil found to date, may have made another discovery--one that sheds radical new light on present conceptions of the Classical world and on the discovery of the New World.

    Working with computer-enhanced images of gold coins minted in the Punic/Phoenician city in North Africa of Carthage between 350 and 320 BC, (please see sketch of coin right and where the world map is supposed to have been inscribed) McMenamin has interpreted a series of designs appearing on these coins, the meaning of which has long puzzled scholars. McMenamin believes the designs represent a map of the ancient world, including the area surrounding the Mediterranean Sea and the land mass representing the Americas.

    If this is true, these coins not only represent the oldest maps found to date, but would also indicate that Carthaginian explorers had sailed to the New World.

    In fact, it was his interest in the Carthaginians as explorers that led McMenamin to study the coins. The Carthaginians were closely linked to the Phoenicians of the Middle East in terms of origin, culture, language, and naval enterprise. Both peoples are widely credited with significant sailing exploits through the Mediterranean, to the British Isles, and along the coast of Africa.

    In one of the coins studied by McMenamin, a horse stands atop a number of symbols at the bottom of the coin. For many years, scholars interpreted these symbols as letters in Phoenician script. When that theory was discounted in the 1960s, it left scholars baffled. Working over the past few months, McMenamin was able to interpret the design as a representation of the Mediterranean, surrounded by the land masses of Europe and Africa, with, to the upper left, the British Isles. To the far left of the representation of the Mediterranean is what the geologist believes is a depiction of the Americas.

    A number of classical texts bolster this theory. For example, in the first century bc, Diodorus of Sicily wrote "...in the deep off Africa is an island of considerable size...fruitful, much of it mountainous.... Through it flow navigable rivers....The Phoenicians had discovered it by accident after having planted many colonies throughout Africa."

    "I was just the lucky person who had the geologic and geographic expertise to view these coins in a new light," McMenamin notes. "I have been interested in the Carthaginians as the greatest explorers in the history of the world."

    McMenamin's interest in Carthage led him to master the Phoenician language. He has published two pamphlets on his work regarding the Carthaginian coins. One is written in ancient Phoenician, representing probably the first new work in that language in 1500 years.

    He has submitted a paper on his theory to The Numismatist, a leading journal in the study of coins, which has accepted McMenamin's paper on the theory for publication. At the same time, the scholar is trying to gain access to a number of coins --or casts of their impressions-- currently held in European collections. These impressions will further aid him, he hopes, in proving the world map theory's validity. "If I had the time and the money," McMenamin observes, only half-kidding, "I'd be in North Africa with my metal detector trying to find Carthaginian coins to further confirm my hypothesis."

    Additional study may well reveal that it was Punic explorers not Europeans who "discovered" the New World. At the very least, McMenamin hopes his theory will focus new scholarly attention on ancient Carthaginian culture.

    http://phoenicia.org/america.html
    The guy learnt ancient Phoenician :D
     
    OP
    Fred

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #77
    What time period do the Carthaginians belong to?

    edit: :sergio: nm, I read 1000BC somewhere but that was in reference to something else.
    Anyway, if what JJ posted was true, my Prof wasn't right. He said that Muslims discovered America, not Arabs/Semetic peoples :p
     

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