The Financial Situation (62 Viewers)

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,703
Then give them a 1000 and Isla as a bonus.
He would still be our player. :D

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So I'm trying to understand how this works, @JuveJay.

Let's say this new club buys Player X. Do we fund them as well so theoretically they buy Player X (non-eu) can we still loan him to Juventus if we maxed out on our EU slots for the season?
 

Buy on AliExpress.com

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
24,018
This is a great decision to invest into some club in Portugal. We'll have opportunity to develop our youngsters, possibility to get our hands on local talent and Portugal certainly don't lack these.

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So I'm trying to understand how this works, @JuveJay.

Let's say this new club buys Player X. Do we fund them as well so theoretically they buy Player X (non-eu) can we still loan him to Juventus if we maxed out on our EU slots for the season?
Think of it as our subsidiary. We'll be financially involved in those deals and all potential gains will go to us.
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,703
I don't know why I find this so interesting. :D

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It reminds me of when I used to play FM and I couldn't afford the player I wanted so I just became the coach of that team and with Juventus I bid $0 for the player and then accepted the bid because I was also the coach of the other team. :lol:

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And if the player said no, being the new coach of the team I just disciplined & fined that player over and over again until he asked to leave. :lol:
 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
24,018
:lol: I know what you mean. Did that quite often while I played FM back in the days. Getting the likes of Sheva and Nesta for free was fantastic.
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,703
Or I would have Real Madrid and all the other big clubs (by taking charge of them) max out there transfer amount by editing their salaries and have them spend 180m on some youth player I would never use. :lol:
 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
24,018
Or I would have Real Madrid and all the other big clubs (by taking charge of them) max out there transfer amount by editing their salaries and have them spend 180m on some youth player I would never use. :lol:
That as well. I'd sell all reserve players for enormous fees, guys like Salas if you remember him among many other useless hacks. That guy was huge pain in the ass and there was very little possibility to sell him in a normal way as he would regularly refuse to move.
 

piotrr

Мodеrator
Sep 13, 2011
34,009
I don't know why I find this so interesting. :D

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It reminds me of when I used to play FM and I couldn't afford the player I wanted so I just became the coach of that team and with Juventus I bid $0 for the player and then accepted the bid because I was also the coach of the other team. :lol:

- - - Updated - - -

And if the player said no, being the new coach of the team I just disciplined & fined that player over and over again until he asked to leave. :lol:
Or I would have Real Madrid and all the other big clubs (by taking charge of them) max out there transfer amount by editing their salaries and have them spend 180m on some youth player I would never use. :lol:
Been there, done that. :D
 

JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
74,911
I don't know why I find this so interesting. :D

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It reminds me of when I used to play FM and I couldn't afford the player I wanted so I just became the coach of that team and with Juventus I bid $0 for the player and then accepted the bid because I was also the coach of the other team. :lol:

- - - Updated - - -

And if the player said no, being the new coach of the team I just disciplined & fined that player over and over again until he asked to leave. :lol:
:D I think we all did that at some point, but it became very boring after a while.
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
We want to be able to get our hands on Latin American players with Portugal having less non-EU restrictions. Read an article that stated that Juve were interested in James Rodriguez (an example) but couldn't pursue it entirely because of the non-EU rules in Italy. Same article goes on to mention Falcao, Hulk, Di Maria, etc were bought on the cheap and sold for millions.

Not a bad idea imo.
 
Mar 3, 2014
3,866
So we can get half ownership for 500 euros? :shifty:
Not that simple...

We'd pay 500 EUR for the "Equity Capital" or ownership, however, we'd have to bear all the future costs of keeping the company in business going forward, which include the fulfillment of ALL of its financial debt. The reason its equity capital costs 500 EUR (which appears to be a nominal payment to effectively say '0') is because its debt obligations are in excess of the total value of the company.

Just doing some research - and while I can't read Portuguese (thank you Google translate), a few things stand out about this club.

-It owned 270,000 EUR in 2012 for some player dispute with a Brazilian club, "Avai".
-As a result it sold 46% of the company to Rui Pedro Soares, a former director of Portugal Telecom, for 469 EUR in order to pay this obligation.
-Currently the book value of its equity is -7,100,000 EUR, while its total liabilities being ~8,000,000 EUR, which implies a total asset value of ~900,000 EUR.
-It had a run-rate annualized loss of 1,200,000 EUR when it was bought in 2012.
-Rui Pedro Soares claims an improved financial profile since he bought it particularly due to the promotion to the first division.
-These new owners have been paying off debt, but its still massively indebted. Last year, it paid off ~400,000 EUR in tax indebtedness. These put its ability to register for the league at risk so it had to be done.


However, in an interview, a former executive, Antonio Polena (who appears to be an idiot btw), highlights some other facts surrounding his decision to leave the club.
- He resigned (assuming I understood the translated article right) because the sale to the new shareholders would lead to serious austerity that would have the club's cash flow being used to reduce its financial debt and other liabilities (tax primarily)
- It has around ~5,000,000 EUR in financial debt to Banif, a bank in portugal, which runs the company ~500,000 EUR per year in interest.
- Management has reduce operating expenses from 1,800,000 EUR to 1,200,000 EUR

Using crude calculations:
Assuming:
1,200,000 EUR Deficit
-------------------
+ 600,000 EUR in OPEX savings
+ 500,000 EUR in Interest Expense
-----------------------------------------
- 100,000 EUR deficit
+ increased revenue from promotion to the first division, which I really don't know how large that is...
----------------------------------------
Probably anywhere between 0-500,000 EUR in cash flow annually to pay interest, make player purchases, and invest in infrastructure.
Conclusion:

You have a business that barely breaks even, and has a debt-load of 5,000,000 EUR. It's very likely that given its limited to negative profitability that the club isn't worth more than 5,000,000 EUR.

To illustrate:
Hypothetically, let's say the value of the company (present value of its future cash flows) is 4,000,000 EUR (that would be ~8.0x my estimated high end cash flow, which I think is realistic).
Enterprise Value: 4,000,000 EUR
Less:
Value of Debt: 5,000,000 EUR
-------------------------------------
Equity Value: -1,000,000 EUR x 50% = -500,000 EUR

Conclusion: This companies "equity value" is certainly negative because of its debt-load and limited profitability. Juventus investing in this business for 500 EUR is probably overpayment given that it would probably cost Juventus well in excess of that in terms of future investments to keep the company solvent, and actually use it as a satellite club. More realistic is probably becomes a permanent cost centre for Juve.

Strategically, it may have value for development, but even at 500 EUR it probably isn't really a deal.

My guess the stake (49%) is intentional because if it is 50% it means a majority stake, and likely trips "Change of Control" covenants in their bank loans, which likely would trigger the full repayment of all of the club's financial debt.

Also an update:

http://www.abola.pt/nnh/ver.aspx?id=506798

Apparently, Soares dismissed the report.
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,703
Blog on Football-Italia about Vidal and selling him for the money mentions the possibility of us going bankrupt in 2 years.

Dave Taylor said:
Perhaps the principal reason being that if Juve can receive near to the €40m figure rumoured, that sum can plug a significant hole in their bank balance. Dating back to the fallout from Calcipoli, the Bianconeri are weaker than they once were financially. Factor in Antonio Conte leaving, the fall in their TV money, several years of posting significant losses and owners EXOR no longer investing big money and the Old Lady is not the financial super power of 15 years ago. Indeed according to one financial website there is even a 75 per cent chance of Juve going bankrupt within two years.
Website he provided was: http://www.macroaxis.com/invest/ratio/JVTSF--Probability-Of-Bankruptcy

Not sure if serious...

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@Bjerknes, any idea?

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It almost seems like a joke. :shifty:
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
115,986
Blog on Football-Italia about Vidal and selling him for the money mentions the possibility of us going bankrupt in 2 years.

Dave Taylor said:


Website he provided was: http://www.macroaxis.com/invest/ratio/JVTSF--Probability-Of-Bankruptcy

Not sure if serious...

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@Bjerknes, any idea?

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It almost seems like a joke. :shifty:
Just looking at the Juventus FC SpA financials, we have a current ratio (current assets/current liabilities) of 0.38. A current value below 1 means that there might be some short-term liquidity issues, meaning that if the debts came due today we could be in trouble. The quick ratio is rather low as well, which isn't surprising. All the other financial ratios are rather poor as well, and if we weren't a football club, I would be very worried.

But we are a football club after all, so of course we have a lot of leverage and debt since we don't have free access to capital from a single wealthy owner. Nobody invests in football clubs because the expected return is so low, which is why our stock price is trading for cents. Debt has increased year-over-year for several years, but so have the value of our assets, so that at least is a good sign.

I think the author of the article (or the article he mentioned) probably used only financial ratios to come up with the 75% conclusion, which are not always accurate unless some context is placed on them. Especially for football clubs. I would only be worried if we continue to fail in the Champions League and somehow lose half of our stadium-going fans.

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And this is why I have concerns over Marotta's transfer policy of structured deals with loans and options to buy since he is essentially using expected cash flows based on future performance to fund deals on skeptical players. But these expected cash flows aren't based on any tangible discount rate, only that we hope to increase revenue through more sales of tickets and TV rights and Champions League funding. But none of that is guaranteed by any means.
 

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