Not wanted to ostracize you at all, dude. BTW, I get you. A legit mistunderstanging but we pratically have the same point.
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The Financial Situation (55 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
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Those are the net payables/receivables due/to be received within the year that have already passed through the income statement.
As I noted above, that 42.2 will likely be offset somewhat by early payments by customers/ delayed payments by Juve in the coming year, but I'd need to spend a lot more time figuring out the how those accruals will behave in the future. But looking through the financial statements over the last few years, those have been all over the place.
As I noted above, that 42.2 will likely be offset somewhat by early payments by customers/ delayed payments by Juve in the coming year, but I'd need to spend a lot more time figuring out the how those accruals will behave in the future. But looking through the financial statements over the last few years, those have been all over the place.
at current fiscal year Q3 end, Juve's Trade Receivables was €29.76m and Trade Payables was €13.93m so I am expecting positive movement in working capital cashflow rather than negative.
http://www.juventus.com/wps/wcm/con...&CACHEID=a1d3a7e4-5746-4945-b7a7-291771cc4505
check out the statement of financial position at Q3 end, trade receivables increased by €17m in the last 9 months (Q1, Q2 and Q3) and trade payables the same...
in Q4 last year, trade receivables went down from €29.8m to €12.6m, on that basis I am expecting cash inflow in Q4 from trade receivables.
maybe changes in Advances paid and received could result in cash outflow, but I think that's unlikely.
http://www.juventus.com/wps/wcm/con...&CACHEID=a1d3a7e4-5746-4945-b7a7-291771cc4505
check out the statement of financial position at Q3 end, trade receivables increased by €17m in the last 9 months (Q1, Q2 and Q3) and trade payables the same...
in Q4 last year, trade receivables went down from €29.8m to €12.6m, on that basis I am expecting cash inflow in Q4 from trade receivables.
maybe changes in Advances paid and received could result in cash outflow, but I think that's unlikely.
Yeah I agree with you, receivables should be collected for Q4. What I am uncertain about is what it will look like over the entire 2015 year, and its impact on full year cash-flow.
I'd have to make sure that any payable paid is offset by another payable that established. In the last twelve months its net working capital position has gotten increasingly negative (~(16) to ~(40). I'd need to ensure that it doesn't reverse over the next year, causing a cash drain. When reassessing that 42.2, I think I was a bit too pessimistic in my rough model. That being said, I'm still concerned that net working capital position may reverse. I'd need to do more work on it, but I don't really want to
since I would not invest in Juventus in a million years.
I'd have to make sure that any payable paid is offset by another payable that established. In the last twelve months its net working capital position has gotten increasingly negative (~(16) to ~(40). I'd need to ensure that it doesn't reverse over the next year, causing a cash drain. When reassessing that 42.2, I think I was a bit too pessimistic in my rough model. That being said, I'm still concerned that net working capital position may reverse. I'd need to do more work on it, but I don't really want to
since I would not invest in Juventus in a million years.
Trade receivables are mainly consisted of receivables from Uefa regarding market pool and that will be collected in June, already has, so you are right that there will be a cash inflow in the last quarter.
pg. 23
http://www.juventus.com/wps/wcm/con...&CACHEID=a1d3a7e4-5746-4945-b7a7-291771cc4505
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No one sane would. Owning a business that generates 300m revenues and in return not getting a single euro in dividends in the last 3-4 years is certainly not an attractive investment opportunity. I'd probably start selling players, our most prized assets like Pogba and Vidal lol. Fans would love me no doubt. For that reason you gotta love Agnelli's as obviously Juve has sentimental value for them and therefore are willing from time to time to invest into the club, despite getting very little in return. I stressed the issue on more than a few occasions, that investing in football clubs is generally a bad idea, as industry is extremely irrational and aggressive.
pg. 23
http://www.juventus.com/wps/wcm/con...&CACHEID=a1d3a7e4-5746-4945-b7a7-291771cc4505
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Yeah I agree with you, receivables should be collected for Q4. What I am uncertain about is what it will look like over the entire 2015 year, and its impact on full year cash-flow.
I'd have to make sure that any payable paid is offset by another payable that established. In the last twelve months its net working capital position has gotten increasingly negative (~(16) to ~(40). I'd need to ensure that it doesn't reverse over the next year, causing a cash drain. When reassessing that 42.2, I think I was a bit too pessimistic in my rough model. That being said, I'm still concerned that net working capital position may reverse. I'd need to do more work on it, but I don't really want to since I would not invest in Juventus in a million years.
I'd have to make sure that any payable paid is offset by another payable that established. In the last twelve months its net working capital position has gotten increasingly negative (~(16) to ~(40). I'd need to ensure that it doesn't reverse over the next year, causing a cash drain. When reassessing that 42.2, I think I was a bit too pessimistic in my rough model. That being said, I'm still concerned that net working capital position may reverse. I'd need to do more work on it, but I don't really want to
since I would not invest in Juventus in a million years.
Ye that's if you wanna win or try to.
But there are lot of examples of football clubs which get money and not just debts.
Look Bayern over a decade of positive money income.
Napoli is another example
Udinese as well , tough they do by scouting players and selling them for a lot of money.
It's all about if you want to win or just play for fun.
Juventus with Moggi was always in + by the end of the year that how we got quoted on the stock exchange (in Italy you have to provide 3 years of positive income to be allowed)
But there are lot of examples of football clubs which get money and not just debts.
Look Bayern over a decade of positive money income.
Napoli is another example
Udinese as well , tough they do by scouting players and selling them for a lot of money.
It's all about if you want to win or just play for fun.
Juventus with Moggi was always in + by the end of the year that how we got quoted on the stock exchange (in Italy you have to provide 3 years of positive income to be allowed)
I think this industry (high level football) under the current climate is unable to maximise shareholder value in a typical corporate way. I don't picture Agnelli and Marotta placing much emphasis on NPV cash flow analysis when deciding the club's direction. I don't think the club's management or it's board of directors look at typical performance indicators such as PM, ROI, ROE as very important. The goal is to stay competitive and have a performance edge over other clubs, and in order to do so revenues coming in are spent on wages, transfers, facilities etc. I don't think clubs aspire to much more than breaking even and adhering to FFP. Ironically if a club all of a sudden decided to use typical PIs as the primary tool to measure its success I think it would screw up shareholder value in the longterm by becoming less competitive and less able to attract sponsors, media deals and so on.
This industry's natural state is such that high ROIs are virtually impossible. I think most investors in the sport aren't in it for the financial returns.
This industry's natural state is such that high ROIs are virtually impossible. I think most investors in the sport aren't in it for the financial returns.
I don't disagree with you there paid-off, main interest of the owners of top football clubs is breaking even and staying competitive every year, even at the expense of negative ROE. Return on equity is non-existent one in most cases. The problem is that to stay competitive the industry is pushing you way beyond limits, and very easily you might fall into a trap if as an owner at one point you don't act sensibly. Difficult to find the right balance, between making the club self-sustainable and at the same time at the top of the industry. Bayern is an exception rather than an overall rule, as there are dozens of clubs like Juve, that have to use creative finances in order to only reconfirm their position, let alone improve their status. One year without investments might set back almost every club, and for these leverage financing is obligatory. The point is if you are looking for healthy return on your investment, football clubs are best to be avoided.
The only way to make money in competitive sports is through some sort of salary control. MLSE in Toronto (owns the Toronto Maple Leafs) is a complete cash cow due to the NHL's salary cap. Without salary controls the goal of winning sucks out all the profits of the business. In international football its even worse due to the presence of transfer agreements. I completely agree with you that football clubs are value destroyers.
that's the beauty of football. America is all about business. There in Europe that kind of thing is impossible cause no big team would approve of that. And in case you don't know the big teams run the game.
Honestly i find it boring if you can't pay players and everyone has a salary cap. I'm not keen of the american way... yo know like Nba. Worst team of the season get to pick the best youngster and so on.
I say boring cause it takes away all the freedom a club has.
Honestly i find it boring if you can't pay players and everyone has a salary cap. I'm not keen of the american way... yo know like Nba. Worst team of the season get to pick the best youngster and so on.
I say boring cause it takes away all the freedom a club has.
Yes, I definitely wouldn't want full model of North American sports to be implemented, but we can take some parts of it to improve, and mostly to ensure reasonable behavior of football clubs around Europe. Transfer fees add to an overall enjoyment and these are not the biggest issue. Introducing salary cap on the other hand might be fairly reasonable move. Imposing legislation that would prevent clubs to spend more than 50% of their income on salaries would be far more sensible than current FFP, as you would address the main issue that most clubs struggle with. You would directly go to the source of the problem, instead of dancing around it and letting the clubs to find the loopholes to exploit.
![Juventino[RUS]](https://www.juventuz.com/data/avatars/m/5/5409.jpg?1650619365){kind=avatar}
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It's pretty clear that Juventus are in a tough financial spot as is most of Serie A. As far as I'm concerned these teams aren't profitable enough to operate with any financial leverage. These businesses are not profitable at all due to irrational competition (every owner wants to win, regardless of whether profitable). This is a big difference from North American sports which implement salary caps and don't have transfer fees. I own the shares of the Madison Square Garden company because the business just prints money but I would never own Juventus shares or even Manchester United shares for that matter because wages account for 60% of revenues or worse. Then again it could be worse... FC Porto pays out 72% of its revenue in wages
The financial prudent thing would be to not spend any money on transfer fees and use the proceeds to pay down debt, but I think we all know that won't happen. This is a crude calculation I put together.
That revenue figure using last 12 month wage structure and last 12 month revenue, so adjust it for any sponsorship agreement changes/ wage increases.
Using those assumptions, they could easily make up that 16 million internally through a few player sales and even better if they go further in the champions league/grow revenues through global expansion. Also, given their interest coverage ratio of ~4.0x, they can technically support more debt. I wouldn't recommend it though. We don't have any money for transfers currently. :sob:, but they'll find a way for sure. Not getting to knockouts for UCL hurt badly for JUVE. I didn't include Sturaro or Peluso in those calculations of because they aren't due for 3 years. Also it is likely that the 40 million outflow due is partially offset by other early payments from customers and delayed payments from Juve to suppliers. That would take a massive deep dive though haha and since I'd never invest in Juve stock its not worth it haha. But as someone who looks at financial statements daily, Juve's are a mess. The earnings quality is awful because of all the accruals. To truly understand it it would take 2-3 weeks of work.
Marotta has done a great job deferring payments for player rights, turning them into in loans, but unfortunately, because the rest of Serie A is struggling, we're allowing other teams to have the same delays. Marotta's best move would be dealing with teams that can settle in cash because as I showed before for Peluso, he managed to delay payment for 2 years when buying from Atalanta only to accept a 3 year delay from Sassuolo lol.
The financial prudent thing would be to not spend any money on transfer fees and use the proceeds to pay down debt, but I think we all know that won't happen. This is a crude calculation I put together.
That revenue figure using last 12 month wage structure and last 12 month revenue, so adjust it for any sponsorship agreement changes/ wage increases.
Using those assumptions, they could easily make up that 16 million internally through a few player sales and even better if they go further in the champions league/grow revenues through global expansion. Also, given their interest coverage ratio of ~4.0x, they can technically support more debt. I wouldn't recommend it though. We don't have any money for transfers currently. :sob:, but they'll find a way for sure. Not getting to knockouts for UCL hurt badly for JUVE. I didn't include Sturaro or Peluso in those calculations of because they aren't due for 3 years. Also it is likely that the 40 million outflow due is partially offset by other early payments from customers and delayed payments from Juve to suppliers. That would take a massive deep dive though haha and since I'd never invest in Juve stock its not worth it haha. But as someone who looks at financial statements daily, Juve's are a mess. The earnings quality is awful because of all the accruals. To truly understand it it would take 2-3 weeks of work.
Marotta has done a great job deferring payments for player rights, turning them into in loans, but unfortunately, because the rest of Serie A is struggling, we're allowing other teams to have the same delays. Marotta's best move would be dealing with teams that can settle in cash because as I showed before for Peluso, he managed to delay payment for 2 years when buying from Atalanta only to accept a 3 year delay from Sassuolo lol.
