Tactics and Formations (3 Viewers)

Bianconero81

Ageing Veteran
Contributor
Jan 26, 2009
28,951
Can we really play any of these 3 at the back formations that people keep calling for if we only have one CB on the bench (Rugani)?
We don't play that formation in the league Bro. Only in CL fixtures. We lack width and our midfield is ass, so we should try to bypass the garbage as much as possible.

Cuads and Sandro can push up to support the attack and act as extra mids - they can't be any worse than what we've been witnessing anyway. I mean, at least they run, tackle, harry and hustle (things the Benign Bosnian seems incapable of doing at present). WIth a double pivot of Benta and Ramsey, we have more movement and hustle. A front three of Costa, Dybala, and CR7 should keep opposition defenders occupied.
 

zizinho

Senior Member
Apr 14, 2013
44,281
Gigi
Alves - Bonucci - Chiellini - Sandro
Khedira - Pjanic
Cuads - Dybala - Mandzo
Higgy

Worked well enough before. I don't think there's much of a difference. The only doubt I'd have is whether Pjanic still has the legs to play in a two man mid.
Alves, Khedira and Mandzu is a big difference imo, plus prime Pjanic. Thats also a much more versatile and compact lineup to me.
 

il brutto

Senior Member
Jun 6, 2015
8,482
Alves, Khedira and Mandzu is a big difference imo, plus prime Pjanic. Thats also a much more versatile and compact lineup to me.
Fair enough. For me Danilo and Bentancur are defensively on par with Alves and Khedira. Mandzo is special but there are plenty of teams that play 4-2-3-1 without a player like Mandzo. You can always throw :berna: to the left flank if you want a more physical player in there.
 

zizinho

Senior Member
Apr 14, 2013
44,281
Fair enough. For me Danilo and Bentancur are defensively on par with Alves and Khedira. Mandzo is special but there are plenty of teams that play 4-2-3-1 without a player like Mandzo. You can always throw :berna: to the left flank if you want a more physical player in there.
The beauty of that team was that we could both attack and defend from all over the pitch. Fullbacks couldnt handle Mandzus physicallity and he drew extra attention, which created space for AS mainly (but Sami and Higgy as well). Above you have DC, who when on the left wont hold anyone on his back and wait for the ball, and since he will hug the line he wont cut in either, so you have an ineffective AS. On the right Cuads is all alone because he has Danilo behind. You dont have Sami attacking w/o the ball from behind, you dont have anyone in the box playing with his back to the goal (compared to 2 players previously), and youre left depending on your wingers going 1on1 all the time with only Ronaldo as a crossing option, while also putting extra defensive work due to only 2 not so physical mids. Thats not sustainable at all the way i see it. Not to mention our press would be super weak and wed get slaughtered on set pieces.

The characteristics of the 2017 players made that an effective and cohesive unit, it helped that they were also probably if not our best 11 players at the time, then definitely among 13-14 at max, but Max is still a genius for figuring out to use them in that exact way.
 

il brutto

Senior Member
Jun 6, 2015
8,482
The beauty of that team was that we could both attack and defend from all over the pitch. Fullbacks couldnt handle Mandzus physicallity and he drew extra attention, which created space for AS mainly (but Sami and Higgy as well). Above you have DC, who when on the left wont hold anyone on his back and wait for the ball, and since he will hug the line he wont cut in either, so you have an ineffective AS. On the right Cuads is all alone because he has Danilo behind. You dont have Sami attacking w/o the ball from behind, you dont have anyone in the box playing with his back to the goal (compared to 2 players previously), and youre left depending on your wingers going 1on1 all the time with only Ronaldo as a crossing option, while also putting extra defensive work due to only 2 not so physical mids. Thats not sustainable at all the way i see it. Not to mention our press would be super weak and wed get slaughtered on set pieces.

The characteristics of the 2017 players made that an effective and cohesive unit, it helped that they were also probably if not our best 11 players at the time, then definitely among 13-14 at max, but Max is still a genius for figuring out to use them in that exact way.
Difference to what we currently field is basically Costa in for Matuidi. I doubt Matuidi makes such a huge difference on set pieces for example. Obviously it would be a bit different compared to that 16/17 team, but you don't need an exact copy of that team to be able to play 4-2-3-1. That's not a high press team at all I agree with that but then again I don't think you can have an effective press with Dybi and Ronny anyways.
 

zizinho

Senior Member
Apr 14, 2013
44,281
Difference to what we play currently field is basically Costa in for Matuidi. I doubt Matuidi makes such a huge difference on set pieces for example. Obviously it would be a bit different compared to that 16/17 team, but you don't need an exact copy of that team to be able to play 4-2-3-1. That's not a high press team at all I agree with that but then again I don't think you can have an effective press with Dybi and Ronny anyways.
Yes you dont need the exact 2017 team for a 4231 but i dont think that particular team will thrive. I see it as too static in the middle, and too dependant on 2 players out wide doing great 2 way work constantly, to make up for non existent press and penetration from the middle. Compared to the team vs Lyon its basically Costa instead of Rabiot, so we improve offensively but thats about it, the same other issues remain.

You cant press with Dybi and Ronaldo up top thats true, they are too static. Thats why i suggested a lineup with Dybala out wide (Insigne like role), Ronaldo up top and 2 btb mids behind (Sami and Ramsey/Matuidi, try Berna sometimes as well). Physical mids are much better at pressing than Dybala, so the few times Ronaldo tries chasing around CBs he will have actual support. Dybala out wide would put him against a fullback, easier defensive task and by not being a de facto forward anymore hed maybe put in better effort. Id also bench Pjanic and Leo and put in Bentancur as a classic DM, with Chiello-MDL behind. It wouldnt leave us too exposed when we press high or attack in numbers. Cuads at RB ofcourse so he takes advantage of Dybala, DC on the other side with AS protecting behind him and Ramsey. I like it better than the above for example and im not even sure this one will work. But i do think it gets the best out of most (not all) of our players and makes us dangerous from more areas on the pitch
 
Apr 19, 2007
3,533
Yes you dont need the exact 2017 team for a 4231 but i dont think that particular team will thrive. I see it as too static in the middle, and too dependant on 2 players out wide doing great 2 way work constantly, to make up for non existent press and penetration from the middle. Compared to the team vs Lyon its basically Costa instead of Rabiot, so we improve offensively but thats about it, the same other issues remain.

You cant press with Dybi and Ronaldo up top thats true, they are too static. Thats why i suggested a lineup with Dybala out wide (Insigne like role), Ronaldo up top and 2 btb mids behind (Sami and Ramsey/Matuidi, try Berna sometimes as well). Physical mids are much better at pressing than Dybala, so the few times Ronaldo tries chasing around CBs he will have actual support. Dybala out wide would put him against a fullback, easier defensive task and by not being a de facto forward anymore hed maybe put in better effort. Id also bench Pjanic and Leo and put in Bentancur as a classic DM, with Chiello-MDL behind. It wouldnt leave us too exposed when we press high or attack in numbers. Cuads at RB ofcourse so he takes advantage of Dybala, DC on the other side with AS protecting behind him and Ramsey. I like it better than the above for example and im not even sure this one will work. But i do think it gets the best out of most (not all) of our players and makes us dangerous from more areas on the pitch
I think Dybala out wide is a tougher defensive assignment than FW. Maybe not quite as bad as CAM though. The most balanced to me is dybala Ronaldo and Costa or another winger with Matuidi in. We can defned in a 4-4-2 shap yet have the ability to send players forward in numbers
 

zizinho

Senior Member
Apr 14, 2013
44,281
I think Dybala out wide is a tougher defensive assignment than FW. Maybe not quite as bad as CAM though. The most balanced to me is dybala Ronaldo and Costa or another winger with Matuidi in. We can defned in a 4-4-2 shap yet have the ability to send players forward in numbers
Dybala has to do less pressing on the wing and quite frankly, hes weak at it.


Here you have Insigne whos a forward out wide defending, while Zielinski and Ruiz who are mids come out and help Mertens press. You still have a 2 lines of 4 defense when one of the mids goes high up, but he will be quick to track back and make it 4-5 when opposition advances the ball. It makes us a better defensive team imo. With Ronaldo-Dybala up top, youll have them just... stand there at the center and watch us defend. And Dybala can still cut inside with the ball, or come to the middle when we attack from the left. Can he do a job Insigne is capable of doing? He should be
 

pavluska

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
5,267
Gigi
Alves - Bonucci - Chiellini - Sandro
Khedira - Pjanic
Cuads - Dybala - Mandzo
Higgy

Worked well enough before. I don't think there's much of a difference. The only doubt I'd have is whether Pjanic still has the legs to play in a two man mid.
Mandzukic did the work of two Matuidis defensively that half season.

I'll never get fanboy types and their ultra lite fairy lineups after years of following the sport.
 

Nedved96

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2017
5,271
we should play 4-2-3-1 again

danilo chiellini bonucci (deligt) sandro
pjanic bentancur (rabiot)
cuadrado dybala costa
ronaldo
Gigi
Alves - Bonucci - Chiellini - Sandro
Khedira - Pjanic
Cuads - Dybala - Mandzo
Higgy
Pjanic and Cuadrado are nowhere near as good in 2020 as they were in 2017, sadly.

Also, Danilo has maybe 10% of the ability of Dani Alves.
 

il brutto

Senior Member
Jun 6, 2015
8,482
Mandzukic did the work of two Matuidis defensively that half season.

I'll never get fanboy types and their ultra lite fairy lineups after years of following the sport.
I'm really not that big of a fan of Costa's, will happily play Matuidi instead of him or Danilo. I'm also not against signing a proper strong defensive mid like Partey to strengthen up the team further. That doesn't mean that some coaches couldn't make 4-2-3-1 work with this team though. Tacdical variation isn't easy to understand.
 
Apr 19, 2007
3,533
Dybala has to do less pressing on the wing and quite frankly, hes weak at it.


Here you have Insigne whos a forward out wide defending, while Zielinski and Ruiz who are mids come out and help Mertens press. You still have a 2 lines of 4 defense when one of the mids goes high up, but he will be quick to track back and make it 4-5 when opposition advances the ball. It makes us a better defensive team imo. With Ronaldo-Dybala up top, youll have them just... stand there at the center and watch us defend. And Dybala can still cut inside with the ball, or come to the middle when we attack from the left. Can he do a job Insigne is capable of doing? He should be
The questtion is who is better defending the wing? dybala or Costa/cuads? Costa/cuads
Who is better at pressing in the center? Higuain or Dybala? Dybala

Aginst someone like Marcelo we could get pinned back if hes to deep and he doesnt have to speed to break away and carry tha ball forward IMO. I prefer him higher up the field personally
 

zizinho

Senior Member
Apr 14, 2013
44,281
The questtion is who is better defending the wing? dybala or Costa/cuads? Costa/cuads
Who is better at pressing in the center? Higuain or Dybala? Dybala

Aginst someone like Marcelo we could get pinned back if hes to deep and he doesnt have to speed to break away and carry tha ball forward IMO. I prefer him higher up the field personally
That's a great point, but I think we can all agree that Dybala is not that great when opponents hold the ball, so to me it's simply about putting him in places where we can "mask" him away more easily. On the wing he'd have a couple of tricky matchups, Marcelo as you say, Davies from Bayern, Liverpool and City if they pass and perhaps Alba (though not sure how good he is these days, same as Marcelo) but we'd play with 3 mids and with Costa defending the left side you wouldn't have Matuidi helping out AS so much, so we can move more players towards the side the opponent is attacking from (5>4, even if the 5th does way less work than the others). Key is Bentancur at DM and De Ligt-Chiellini behind. With Bonucci and Pjanic out, we'd have less players we need to "protect" so we can get away with Dybala doing average defensive work on the side. I think it works because all the remaining contenders are better through the middle than out wide, except Liverpool and maybe Bayern, so winning the midfield battle will always be crucial
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 2)