SERIE A: Juventus - Roma (1 Viewer)

gray

Senior Member
Moderator
Apr 22, 2003
30,260
++ [ originally posted by slack ] ++
Lastly, something more subjective; does anyone honestly think that this Juve looks anything like an improved version of the last one? Maybe I bought too much into the hype, perhaps its too early but whatever it may be, I see what's essentially an identical gameplan to last season's. The much touted attack is decidedly mediocre and we're lucky that certain individuals have been able to bail us out so far.
I definitely do think that this squad is better than last season's. You can't judge our attack when two of our most creative players, DP and Mico were injured...

Sure, the gameplan may be similar, but I think Lippi was under too much pressure to conform to the mould set out in the unwritten laws of football - when you're ahead, defend the lead... sure, he's receiving criticism now, but how much worse would it have been if he'd thrown on Zalayeta in Tudor's place and we'd conceded a goal...
 

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Zizou

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2003
3,965
Mediocre attack when we scored 11 goals in 4 matches? Nearly an average of 3 goals per match! Is that bad? Of course it's not! What might be a bit worrying is the average goal per game we are getting in our net but not our attack force is quite strong considering that in all competions, all forwards that played scored:

Trezeguet - 3
Del Piero - 4
Di Vaio - 3

Seriously, what did you expect more? None other team has a better scoring strike force IMO, and the stats are proving this.
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
I think Slack meant the way we are playing generally not the fact that so and so have scored how many or what have you

I think he means that its more to do with individual brilliance than team work

To be fair Miccoli has been injured so we do not really know what he can bring to the team and I have never been interested in pre season so thats never a bearing on the real thing

I cannot phantom why ceratin ppl think because you say somebody messed up or you criticise a person it automatically means you dont like him or hate him or whatever

The fact of the matter still remains Lippi messed up as he is prone to do in big matches or getting to 3 cl finals and picking the wrong team is not testament enough for you guys

No way at home when you are a on a roll should you start with 3 defensive midfielders, that not only tells the opposition we are afraid of you, it means that creativity is reduced and ppl like Trez or Nedved or Dp are under more pressure to produce magic and when they don't we call them crap

Explain to me how Birindelli can be brought on and instead of placing him at left back and putting Zambrotta as right or left winger, we play Birindelli as a midfielder and of cos he didnt know thruout whether he was coming or going

It does not m,atter who scored for Roma, when you invite pressure like that, you are looking for trouble and really no excuses from Totti , it was a bad miss, Dp made a less glaring miss in the Ec2000 final against France and he is almost crucified and here we are saying it was a brilliant save by Buffon, football is a funny game as someone once said

Drawing against Roma at home is not a good result and excuses like we have played internationals and cl blah blah blah are just that excuses, whats the point in having a big squad if players like Maresca have played just about 10 minutes all season, Di vaio the same

Or is the point having a big squad just to cover for injuries, not to rest players? not that at this time of the season anyone should be tired, mind you

And why the comparisms with Inter all the time, they have never been enterprising and they never will be, they have not won the scudetto since 1991 so theres no need to compare ourselves to them just to cover up our cracks

I personnaly believe we are an improvement on most of the dross that was served up last season but we still have our faults, no way would we expect Nedved to be as he was last season as his is more on effort than ability so its hard asking him to replicate that

Maresca needs to be played more to see what he is made of, Camo needs to cut out his nonsense of playing only one good half and be trash in the other half, Tudor should be confined to defense, Montero's role should be more bit part and more pressure should be put on Trez to perform, he should not be allowed to earn his right to play not live on his 24 goal season, by that I mean Di Vaio should be given more of a chance on merit not because someone has got injured and when given the chance take it and stop being offside all the time
 

Dj Juve

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
9,597
++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++

It does not matter who scored for Roma, when you invite pressure like that, you are looking for trouble and really no excuses from Totti , it was a bad miss, Dp made a less glaring miss in the Ec2000 final against France and he is almost crucified and here we are saying it was a brilliant save by Buffon, football is a funny game as someone once said

the stakes in EURO 200 were a bit higher than a early season league game..thats why ;)
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
++ [ originally posted by discobamba ] ++



the stakes in EURO 200 were a bit higher than a early season league game..thats why ;)
Its called double standards as the 2 points lost could mean the difference between Roma becoming 1st and 2nd or 3rd
But my point is that it was a bad miss no matter what way you look at it
 

Dj Juve

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
9,597
++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
Its called double standards as the 2 points lost could mean the difference between Roma becoming 1st and 2nd or 3rd
or....just maybe, roma will be far away from us when we get relegated this season
 

Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
Jul 16, 2002
11,481
++ [ originally posted by IceBlu ] ++
Lippi is the greatest mastermind in Italy ... So f*ckin what if Juve conceded a late goal ? its still early in the season and the players were just tired after so many consequetive games.

Juve are still at the top of the table and the Milan Derby is not far away so expect them to drop some points. Juve showed character and almost beat a Roma side that are on somewhat of a roll at the moment. Juve have been consistent and they get the wins when needed. Its not like we lost. Trez had enough time to score before he got substituded but he didn't. What makes you guys think that he would have scored had he stayed on ? Its not defensive- mindedness ...instead it was a sensible move. More often than not it would have worked.

So stop whining and look ahead.
Well, my Pittsburgh brother, we have a difference of opinion !!! I feel that a 1 goal lead in this league is never safe !!! I thought we should have gone for the kill, and netted another !!!

Catenaccio doesnt work, just ask Trap !!!!!
 

Dragon

Senior Member
Apr 24, 2003
27,407
Haha, trapattoni never learns!!

well when trezeguet was taken out and birindelli replaced him i couldnt believe my eyes, maybe that wasnt the most appropiate move because roma were pushing and pushing more but we still had offensive players such as di vaio mauro german pavel nedved
 

Stu

Senior Member
Jul 14, 2002
17,557
My honest opinion is that Roma played well enough to get a draw a thoroughly deserved it. Lippi made a mistake when he replaced Trez with Biri, but Capello's men deserved the point nevertheless.
 

Hydde

Minimiliano Tristelli
Mar 6, 2003
38,709
++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
I think Slack meant the way we are playing generally not the fact that so and so have scored how many or what have you

I think he means that its more to do with individual brilliance than team work

To be fair Miccoli has been injured so we do not really know what he can bring ................................
The points:

Lippi´s bad decition: Agreed. Trezeguet must have been in the field till the end, just to bother the roma defenders. Lippi picked tudor thinking about Carews heigh, but IMO was a too defensive formation.

About the tiredness: I agree that we cant use this as an excuse,,but as i told you before the game.....playerslike DP, trez and bufon ahve been working very hard in the last 3 weeks, specially DP, that was doing a great job in almost all the games. Look at what happened to him. He just ran a bit and suddenly got injured. Because of this , i say that lot of games and tranings can affact a player.

About our Benches: agreed. Lippi have to use our benches, for god sake, is we have playerslike diavio and maresca , let them play. In hose matches that trezeguet is not doing well, he must try somwthing new.


My question is.... ¿why camo was not a starter? :confused:

I like the way lippi guides the team,,, but he sometimes fails.

Hopefully..we still have alot of games to see how our team is doing....and until now, it seems that we could have a great season :)
 

slack

Junior Member
Dec 13, 2002
208
That’s exactly how I feel, denco. A great summary, btw.

There’s been an interesting discussion on the list. Basically, when you have individual players bailing you out, back off by reverting to a defensive formation at the very 1st test with essentially the same team bar only 2 new insertions, what do those imply tactically? The first conclusion drawn is that the touted 4-2-3-1, contrary to theory, doesn’t suit us in reality. Granted it may be too early to say that but I particularly dislike the way Lippi handled Roma. When you consider that he resorted to a negative formation (something like a 4-3-2-1/4-5-1) that’s not even tried-and-tested (the usual 4-3-1-2), it doesn’t really makes sense when you see that he discarded a ‘new’ solution for another ‘new’ solution; how prudent is that? Not speaking on hindsight here because when I saw the lineup, the message conveyed was that we were too scared of the opposition, reactive all the way right from the outset and thereby always a step behind and like denco said, inviting trouble.

Secondly, I think the criticism of Trez in particular is too 1-dimensional though justified to a certain extent. Trez’s substitution is just part of the overall problem of Juve retreating even further from where they already did. DV was almost as invisible so Juve had a general problem with strikers, not a particular individual. Is our main man up there too isolated? Let’s be fair to Trez who’s living off the service/scraps of the supporting trio. Ideally, I see him as a diversion, to occupy a marker or 2 at all times (fine), pull them all over the place (failed) and perhaps nick in a goal or 2 by himself (ok) This creates space for the attacking trio to have a real go at any openings. This has always been a thankless task for the modern lone-striker systems. Just as a more popular beneficiary will get most of the credit as scorer, the vultures are always perched to slag Trez off. Loose claims like any half-decent striker would have scored as many bloody beggars belief. We saw it with the WC-winning France of 98’, between Dugarry, Guivarch, Henry and Trez. None were spared the rollicking despite Jacquet’s tactical explanation. Why oh why? For the simple reason that it didn’t ‘conform’ to convention : a big strong lad, good on the turn, holds the ball well, dribbles half the field and scores bucketloads. People are obsessed and content to diss at face value. Consider workrate similarly and laziness isn’t as conveniently applicable anymore. I assure you that the Frenchman is fully capable of great attacking linkup play but the environment dictates otherwise.

It is true we should not underestimate the absence of DP and Miccoli. However, whenever I see Tach and hell, even Tudor preferred to Maresca in the same CLUELESS and technically deficient midfield, its clear the problem isn’t as simple as we see it. It makes you wonder if depth/quality is really the bottleneck coming off last season’s concerns. With the exception of Miccoli, the new guys have all the experience that’s needed in topflight Serie A football. What’s the excuse? As far as I’m concerned, apart from a 2nd half blitz against the giants called Empoli and sporadic 10-15mins of flowing football in rest, this team still haven't any idea of how to build an attack properly compared to the class of 96-98. Lippi should go do some revision in technique, movement and buildup from earlier years or simply watch Deportivo for a current equivalent. We have all it takes to do so so it isn’t coz we can’t but rather won’t for some infuriating reason.

Btw, good to see you back denco!
 

Hydde

Minimiliano Tristelli
Mar 6, 2003
38,709
++ [ originally posted by slack ] ++


I think the criticism of Trez in particular is too 1-dimensional though justified to a certain extent. Trez’s substitution is just part of the overall problem of Juve retreating even further from where they already did. DV was almost as invisible so Juve had a general problem with strikers, not a particular individual.
Exactly. It was caused because the whole team was pressed and confined to their own side, and lippi´s decition was like the icing on the cake.
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
Thank you Slack and well you have summed it up beautifully

I agree with everything you have said except I still have my doubts of Trez as a lone striker in the way we play, it works well with France when he does not really have to take players away, and with Wiltord, Henry, Zidane and Pires running and probing

Our football is not that coordinated it is more in fits and bursts than in a cordinated manner and totally dependent on individual play than team work

I have always wondered why Spanish teams who are maybe not as good individually as good as us but play better team football

Look at Deportivo, players like Victor, Fran , and some players in the midfield are probably not household names but they play some good stuff, even if Valeron is a class apart and i just absolutely like Tristian when he feels like playing but we cannot seem to play like that

Deschamps and Sousa have not been adequately replaced as a partnership and thats what we have lacked, 2 opposites in the midfiled who absolutely compliment eachother
 

Stu

Senior Member
Jul 14, 2002
17,557
Interesting post Denco. I agree that our football is not as coordinated as that of say Deportivo's and that we play in fits and bursts and rely on individual brilliance from Nedved, Del Piero or whoever, but I don't think that our midfield is the problem.

When Camoranesi and Thuram are on form they are absolutely overwhelming going down the right flank, and Tacchinardi and Davids form a pretty good central midfield partnership if you ask me.

So what's the problem you ask? I dunno, but I don't think there's anything wrong with our midfield, except for a slight lack of creativity.
 

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