Russia - Ukraine Conflict 2022 (106 Viewers)

JuveJay

Senior Signor
Moderator
Mar 6, 2007
75,029

s4tch

Senior Member
Mar 23, 2015
33,889
nothing new to add, ukraine's efforts surprised the observers since day 1. i'll just say that this is how i imagine american military leaders: well rounded, extremely well informed, no bullshit, not sipping whiskey during a hearing or press conference

 

s4tch

Senior Member
Mar 23, 2015
33,889
an interesting take from an academic i'm not familiar with: https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/04/0...ukraine-ceasefire-peace-negotiations-economy/

(archived and fully readable here without paywall: https://archive.ph/OEJaZ )

Why Putin Is Stalling Trump on Ukraine
The Russian leader cannot afford to end the war he started.
By Ian Garner, an assistant professor at the Pilecki Institute’s Center for Totalitarian Studies.
Russian President Vladimir Putin gestures during the Forum of Future Technologies in Moscow on Feb.14, 2024.Russian President Vladimir Putin gestures during the Forum of Future Technologies in Moscow on Feb.14, 2024. Contributor/Getty Images

Even U.S. President Donald Trump—not known as a critic of Russia—has signaled frustration with Russian President Vladimir Putin’s stalling over a cease-fire in Ukraine. Why does Putin, three years after it became clear that his army could not destroy Ukraine in battle, seem so unwilling to countenance any sort of cease-fire?
Despite some recent gains on the ground—notably in pushing the Ukrainians out of Russia’s own Kursk region—the chance of a decisive Russian military victory remains vanishingly small. Indeed, the clock appears to be ticking on Russia’s war effort. Moscow’s forces are hemorrhaging men and equipment, and analysts cast doubt on how long Russia’s economy can keep producing enough materiel to feed the front. Ukraine’s intelligence service claims that the Kremlin recognizes that the war has to end by 2026 if Russia is to avoid a serious deterioration of its geopolitical power.
Yet Putin is not putting any brakes on the war. Nor has he offered any concessions that would even hint at the possibility of a peace settlement short of Ukraine’s capitulation. Despite the flurry of U.S.-Russia negotiations over a cease-fire, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov this week spoke of an inevitably “drawn-out process.” Meanwhile, Russia continues to barrage Ukrainian cities with rockets and drones, and Putin has just announced a plan to conscript another 160,000 men into the military this spring, the highest rate in 14 years. At the same time, the Russian Armed Forces are still drawing in thousands of soldiers every month through contract recruiting. Pausing the war may seem like a no-brainer for an exhausted Russia, but the country’s long-term militarization continues apace.
Putin may believe that, by holding out, he can extract even more concessions from Trump, who seems to be increasingly willing to strike any deal with Russia at all—even if it means forcing Ukraine to collapse. Putin may hope to be gifted by Washington what he has failed to achieve on the battlefield.
Let’s set these speculations aside for now and focus on another critical set of motivations for the Russian leader. Putin, eager to preserve his own security above all, may judge that the risks of ending the war are greater than those of continuing it. On the one hand, the current level of war effort is unsustainable in both economic and demographic terms. (Although Russia has a greater population than Ukraine, it is losing soldiers at a far higher rate.) On the other hand, a rapid cessation of hostilities comes with clear economic and social dangers. Pulling the rug out from under the conflict—and ending the vast spending stimulus the war has brought—may also end the social stability on which Putin has built his 25-year rule.
Peace could deal a hammer blow to an economy that is running on the fumes of military-led investment. In 2024, military spending was set to reach around 35 percent of the public budget and fueled economic growth. Consumer spending is booming, especially away from Moscow in the economically deprived provinces, where the Kremlin recruits most of its soldiers. A large part of that boom is due to the 1.5 percent of Russian GDP that the state is currently spending on increasingly outlandish payouts for military enlistment and service. In a region like Samara oblast, the sign-on bonus alone is around $40,000—more than four times the average annual salary there. For every month soldiers serve at the front, thousands more dollars land in their bank accounts. Much of Russia’s manufacturing economy has shifted to defense as well—and with it, well-paid jobs.
As the German economist Janis Kluge put it: “If the Kremlin wants to avoid an economic collapse, it will have to continue spending at current levels long after the war is over.” But there are no signs of any Kremlin plans to replace military spending with any other government stimulus. Despite the challenges of producing enough materiel and munitions to feed the vast front line in Ukraine, the economy as it exists today cannot exist without some sort of war—or, short of that, a vast and growing army perpetually ready for war.
Putin’s domestic problem, however, reaches beyond the war’s economic stimulus. For large swaths of society, the war is functioning as a form of social and cultural stimulus as well. The lavish bonuses paid to enlistees function as more than bribes to get young men to the front. For contract soldiers, who are disproportionately from poorer regions and less well-educated backgrounds, joining the war in Ukraine is an opportunity for transformation. The Russian military’s advertising campaigns promise young men not just riches but the opportunity to “create your future” by signing on, with tantalizing hints of masculine power and consumerist self-realization. In a society where young men in the provinces have found themselves stuck or tumbling down the social ladder in recent years—and where the state has failed to supply a hopeful vision for the country’s future—the offer of life-changing sums of money has introduced a novel possibility of social mobility into the public imagination.
In Russia’s far-flung regions, this social transformation is physically evident in the changing spaces of once-desolate provincial cities and towns, newly equipped with the accoutrements of consumerist living like gyms, shops, and cafés. Wealthy veterans—those who survived the front and managed to end their service—and their families have money to burn, enabling them to lead lifestyles that, before the war, were available only to their wealthy compatriots in Moscow and St. Petersburg. In the 2000s, Putin built his popularity on a consumer boom fueled by rising global commodities prices, with Russian GDP racing upward by as much as 7 percent a year. Now, the boom is back, but it is fueled by war.
Demolishing all this social and economic hope may prove as damaging to Putin’s popular standing as the end of the previous growth spurt in the 2000s. Then, discontented Russians coalesced around the political opposition led by the murdered Boris Nemtsov and, a few years later, the protest movement led by the murdered Alexey Navalny. If the war ends and the military spigot runs dry, many Russians may be equally keen to look for other opportunities to transform their standing in society. Returning Ukraine veterans will see the regime’s promises of self-realization evaporate as their hometowns begin to crumble once again. There may also be a bloc of disgruntled younger men, who did not sign up, who will feel they missed the boat when it comes to sign-on bonuses. If postwar Putinism cannot offer either the wealth of the contract soldier or the social respect of the war hero—if the sacrifices of war no longer promise a better future—young Russian men will look for alternatives.
Just as the Kremlin has no plan to replace the war’s economic stimulus, so it appears that it has no plan to replace the war’s social stimulus. This time, the disenchanted may not look for alternatives in the relatively liberal politics of another Nemtsov or Navalny; today, liberal voices are effectively outlawed by the regime and have little visibility or traction in the public sphere. Moreover, the Russian and Soviet past shows that liberal views generally have little appeal in a postwar socioeconomic depression. Soldiers returning from the Soviet-Afghan War and First Chechen War, angry at the vain sacrifices they had made and marginalized by a society that rapidly moved on from war, did not turn to democracy or liberalism to express their disenchantment with the status quo. Instead, they looked to extreme nationalist forces that proved toxic to whoever held power in the Kremlin at the time.
Thus far, the Russian state has stymied the potential for growing nationalist discontent by giving the appearance of listening to the extreme right’s concerns through staged PR briefings with Putin, astroturfed social media campaigns, and by dealing swiftly with public figures who have overstepped the mark—like the late Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin and the imprisoned ultra-nationalist mercenary Igor Girkin. But unlike the silenced liberals, the nationalists have been allowed to garner a large audience on social media, in particular on Telegram. It would not be a surprise if the sudden return of hundreds of thousands of disaffected veterans and the emergence of a cohort of futureless young men—their anger further accelerated by economic collapse—saw nationalist factions achieve a critical mass of support that the Kremlin’s propagandists and censors would find difficult to control.
In such a scenario, new and popular promises of individual and collective masculinity, strength, and power might lead, if not to some sort of collapse or revolution that would dethrone Putin for good, to a level of domestic instability that far exceeds the strains of the ongoing war in Ukraine. Putin is a diligent student of his country’s history and will be keenly aware of the dangers posed by a postwar sociocultural vacuum. He has been a careful manager of veterans in the past, bringing veterans of the Chechen and Afghan wars into positions of social responsibility. Today, he offers troops not just economic but a range of social and cultural benefits.
Suddenly ending Russia’s war against Ukraine may unleash a torrent of anger across Russia’s regions that echoes the violent disillusionment of the post-Afghan and post-Chechen eras. Putin and his advisors may suppose that it is better to keep the war rolling on slowly, offering big payouts to keep the provinces booming, and promising that a brighter future is just around the corner. Until the pain of continuing the war is greater—perhaps real economic pressure from outside, such as severe sanctions on the oil industry, or the threat that Kyiv might actually win altogether—Putin may choose to keep stalling on any decision to stop, pause, or otherwise end the fighting.
 
Jun 16, 2020
12,435
Poland would absolutely smash them. Even right now, before the ramp up in the rest of European defence spending. Their targets are likely the Baltic states, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. But they won’t even succeed there. All Russia has accomplished with this war, is to expand NATO to Sweden and Finland, and to fracture America’s close ties with the EU nations, causing the EU powers to realize they need to be responsible for their own defence from the Russian threat. European Russia is completely surrounded by unfriendly nations now, that are all ramping up defence spending. And while America may withdraw from NATO and the defence of Eastern Europe… Germany, France, the UK, Poland, etc will not. Russia will get absolutely stomped if they invade any EU/NATO member state, and that’s right now, before any build-up of the EU military industrial complex.
This is a bit an oversimplification of things and quite frankly not true. Europe might have the upper hand in terms of economic power and population size, but when we speak about a hypothetical clash between Europe and Russia we’re in troubles as things stand today, let alone thinking that just Poland would smash Russia.

The 800b investments are born out of necessity. In terms of manpower on active duty Europe’s army is comparable with Russia, but has the disadvantage of being very fragmented. Air defence systems are limited and stocks are depleted to a certain level. The whole command and control system is reliant on the US since they were leading the pack in all the previous wars. We might have the lessons learned of Ukraine but not the true combat experience in a modern sense with the introduction of drones and the return of almost WW2 frontlines, it’s a big difference compared to facing the Taliban which was more a guerrilla type of warfare used by the enemy, than we can still go in dept about mass production capabilities.

I don’t say that I expect Russian tanks in Paris but I wouldn’t say that we’re ready yet either. We’re talking about decades of cutbacks/neglecting the army in Europe while facing a country on a war economy, with very different doctrines. It’s all fixable but logically we’d need a few years of preparations.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
42,253
This is a bit an oversimplification of things and quite frankly not true. Europe might have the upper hand in terms of economic power and population size, but when we speak about a hypothetical clash between Europe and Russia we’re in troubles as things stand today, let alone thinking that just Poland would smash Russia.

The 800b investments are born out of necessity. In terms of manpower on active duty Europe’s army is comparable with Russia, but has the disadvantage of being very fragmented. Air defence systems are limited and stocks are depleted to a certain level. The whole command and control system is reliant on the US since they were leading the pack in all the previous wars. We might have the lessons learned of Ukraine but not the true combat experience in a modern sense with the introduction of drones and the return of almost WW2 frontlines, it’s a big difference compared to facing the Taliban which was more a guerrilla type of warfare used by the enemy, than we can still go in dept about mass production capabilities.

I don’t say that I expect Russian tanks in Paris but I wouldn’t say that we’re ready yet either. We’re talking about decades of cutbacks/neglecting the army in Europe while facing a country on a war economy, with very different doctrines. It’s all fixable but logically we’d need a few years of preparations.
Oh please. Russia has been getting embarrassed by Ukraine for 3 years now. And this is while having dominant air superiority for the entire war. They also got embarrassed by Ukraine even in the first few months of the war before significant Western arms had arrived.

Russia would get absolutely smashed in a conventional war by NATO, even without the US helping. It would be over in weeks. And no, I’m not talking about European NATO invading Russia. But if Russia invaded any NATO nation that would get spanked and sent home in a matter of weeks.
 
Jun 16, 2020
12,435
Oh please. Russia has been getting embarrassed by Ukraine for 3 years now. And this is while having dominant air superiority for the entire war. They also got embarrassed by Ukraine even in the first few months of the war before significant Western arms had arrived.
This is against just not true. They compromised their air superiority in the first phase of the war, pulled they air force back and didn’t had air superiority ever since.
 
Jun 16, 2020
12,435
Exactly how I said it, feel free to give your interpretation about it. I heard that explanation as early as last Wednesday in a podcast with Frans Osinga, the name probably won’t say anyone something, he’s a professor of War Studies at the Institute of Security and Global Affairs, after being a pilot in the Air Force for decades. It’s consistent with everything I heard from basically any analist, Russia never had full air superiority.

You had the initial, really first days of the war where you guys were blowing up helicopters and jets with stingers, they regrouped afterwards and at a certain point started attacking with glide bombs from Russian terrain outside the reach of Ukrainian frontlines.
 
Jun 16, 2020
12,435
They never had air superiority to begin with. This war was and is too AA heavy and planes are expensive.
Yes, so as I said, Post Ironic’s statement: “and this is while having dominant air superiority for the entire war” is not true. The opposite is rather true, Ukraine will go in the history books for doing a hell of a job stopping Russian air dominance with less hardware and limited resources, in fact it might be one of the key factors of why the Russians aren’t able to really win the war.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
42,253
This is against just not true. They compromised their air superiority in the first phase of the war, pulled the air force back and didn’t had air superiority ever since.
And conversely, in a war with European NATO, NATO would dominate the skies and absolutely pound Russian ground forces for the air. Even more so since this is an invasion we’re talking about, so Russia wouldn’t have significant air defences set up in Poland/Baltics to be a deterrent to NATO air superiority.

You have no idea what you’re talking about here. Russia has a 3rd rate military, and relies significantly on 3rd rate equipment and tech augmented by a small percentage of modern tech. They would absolutely get embarrassed in any war with a NATO nation where NATO intervened, even without America. Again, we’re not talking about about NATO invading Russia where Russia has defenses already set up and are on their home turf, we’re talking about Russia invading Poland or the Baltics and NATO getting involved because article 5. The fact you think that “invasion” would last more than a couple weeks is pretty amusing. They’d don’t have the military tech or strategy to be successful against forces far far superior to those they are being embarrassed by in Ukraine.
 
Jun 16, 2020
12,435
And conversely, in a war with European NATO, NATO would dominate the skies and absolutely pound Russian ground forces for the air. Even more so since this is an invasion we’re talking about, so Russia wouldn’t have significant air defences set up in Poland/Baltics to be a deterrent to NATO air superiority.

You have no idea what you’re talking about here. Russia has a 3rd rate military, and relies significantly on 3rd rate equipment and tech augmented by a small percentage of modern tech. They would absolutely get embarrassed in any war with a NATO nation where NATO intervened, even without America. Again, we’re not talking about about NATO invading Russia where Russia has defenses already set up and are on their home turf, we’re talking about Russia invading Poland or the Baltics and NATO getting involved because article 5. The fact you think that “invasion” would last more than a couple weeks is pretty amusing. They’d don’t have the military tech or strategy to be successful against forces far far superior to those they are being embarrassed by in Ukraine.
So let me get this straight, you didn’t know that Russia doesn’t have any air superiority, said that Poland alone would smash Russia, but I don’t know what I’m talking about.
 

s4tch

Senior Member
Mar 23, 2015
33,889
1. a few days ago they said russia were out of the tariff hit countries because there's no official trade between the two countries
2. ukraine are part of the negotiations yet they are affected by the tariffs (10% iirc, didn't double check)

trump is still putin's little bitch, isn't he

 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
24,064
So let me get this straight, you didn’t know that Russia doesn’t have any air superiority, said that Poland alone would smash Russia, but I don’t know what I’m talking about.
How would Russia reach Poland in the 1st place? Via Belarus? Russia cant handle Ukraine and have been pushed back in recent weeks, not to mention lost some of their territory and you think they have capabilities to start another war. Not going to happen imo. And I think Poland in the highly unlikely event that Russians open a new front, would smash them.
 
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Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
42,253
So let me get this straight, you didn’t know that Russia doesn’t have any air superiority, said that Poland alone would smash Russia, but I don’t know what I’m talking about.
You consistently argue that Russia is a major military power. They aren’t.

Russia did have major air superiority at the beginning of this war. You can argue against that, but it’s simply wrong. Their military in the first several weeks, while Ukraine was a shambles, with a poorly equipped military and lacking in manpower, still had their invading army stomped. If they gave up on being prevalent in the skies above Ukraine because Ukraine made it a no-fly zone for them while constantly dealing with weapons and ammunition shortages, that’s a big lol that you think this supports your argument that they could do well attacking NATO states that have both far superior anti-aircraft capabilities and air forces that would dominate the skies above their own nations.

So here you are, arguing this army could invade and take on European NATO in their territory. God bless your little heart. :lol2:

You’ve always simped a bit for Russia though, so nothing new here.
 
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Jun 16, 2020
12,435
How would Russia reach Poland in the 1st place? Via Belarus? Russia cant handle Ukraine and have been pushed back in recent weeks, not to mention lost some of their territory and you think they have capabilities to start another war. Not going to happen imo. And I think Poland in the highly unlikely event that Russians open a new front, would smash them.
Even if we look broader and say a hypothetical EU vs Russia, we’d have struggles in the short to mid term.

A few key factors:

Command and control: A fully integrated European system does not exist. USA’s structure works globally when it comes to planning, logistics and intelligence gathering. We don’t have a equivalent. There are initiatives but a operational system does not exist. Countries like France or the UK have their structures at a smaller level, we’d be in a fragmented situation with 27 countries struggling to coordinate. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_and_control_structure_of_the_European_Union

Air Defence: Little coverage in Europe, you’re talking about a few percentages. We’re exposed to Russian long range missiles. I quote the Rand Corperation, a think tank who did a study years ago: “The games’ findings are unambiguous: As currently postured, NATO cannot successfully defend the territory of its most exposed members.“ Quote is in relation to Kaliningrads air defence.

Production: Everyone knows this. We can produce high end stuff, but we can’t mass produce yet. We couldn’t live up to some of our commitments to Ukraine.

Fragmentation: Looking to the Union, 27 countries, 27 armies, 27 doctrines. There’s no standard lay-out with central authority, and with dozens of different weapons per country. That vs a uniform Russia, with on short/mid-term more operational soldiers.

Would I see Russia winning or opening a new front, no that not. Im neither in the illusion that it will be a walk in the park defending a conquest for the Baltic States if it happens in the future, over time they don’t have a chance. We’re in that time window where the defence of Europe in comparison to Russia’s operational possibilities are limited to fully independently operate from the US, which is our biggest weakness. This is also about understanding what the underlying problems are and why we’ve seen the investments who were long overdue
 
Jun 16, 2020
12,435
You consistently argue that Russia is a major military power. They aren’t.

Russia did have major air superiority at the beginning of this war. You can argue against that, but it’s simply wrong. Their military in the first several weeks, while Ukraine was a shambles, with a poorly equipped military and lacking in manpower, still had their invading army stomped. If they gave up on being prevalent in the skies above Ukraine because Ukraine made it a no-fly zone for them while constantly dealing with weapons and ammunition shortages, that’s a big lol that you think this supports your argument that they could do well attacking NATO states that have both far superior anti-aircraft capabilities and air forces that would dominate the skies above their own nations.

So here you are, arguing this army could invade and take on European NATO in their territory. God bless your little heart. :lol2:

You’ve always simped a bit for Russia though, so nothing new here.
Your posts are full with inconsistencies. “They have air superiority for the entire war” vs “they established a no-fly zone”, both statements are wrong. They never had a no-fly zone! Seeking resort in words as simp lead me to the simple conclusion that you don’t know what you’re talking about, to use your own language. If you have to such fundamental differences between a few posts you’re already giving your limited knowledge away.

Also European NATO does not exist. NATO relies on the US as their backbone in every sense of the word, no US means operational problems, I’ve already outlined that. Otherwise it would evolve in a European army under article 42. To go back to your initial post that Poland alone would smash them, no they wouldn’t yet and it’s not that easy, otherwise we wouldn’t have seen the 800b of investments, logically. Ukraine has the best European army at this moment, if they aren’t able to fully stop or win the war, Poland alone as you said, wouldn’t be either. Going from your arguments the continental investments would make no sense. You’re neglecting the underlying problems within Europe’s defence.

Europe needs a few years to prepare, it doesn’t matter where you look you’ll find the same answer everywhere. As things stand today, Europe is not ready without the US and certainly not isolated countries alone. We aren’t ready on a political level, not on a manufacturing level and certainly not on an operational level. Give it some time and I’m sure that we’ll be able to fix that, although it’s long overdue.
 

TheLaz

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
5,540
I just dont get it. Why would anyone invest in anything else than Drones / missiles nowadays? What land troops would proceed if bombed from the skies?
 

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